Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)

[Qdeathstar]

On 12/20/2023 at 8:59 AM, Ghentite said:

Why don't they just call this what it is?  Fast food (most likely a chain) and a food court similar to what Portsmouth has in their casino (gross) 

More importantly they don't want to pay for the marina, which was crucial in extending the esplanade from Waterside past Harbor Park.  That's a key element in developing the whole area.

They're still half-assing  it.  I'll pass. 

The Portsmouth casino is pretty decent food wise. The steakhouse is nice… and the yard house is packed. I imagine they will be be figuring out how to open up more restaurants do to the success. I don’t know what you expected. It’s Portsmouth/Norfolk not DC….

 

 

On 12/22/2023 at 1:39 AM, baobabs727 said:

I think that ship has sailed.  Too much bad blood.... But who knows with this bunch. 

If cordial sees money to be made they are willing to work with Norfolk. 

[baobabs727]

And the sad saga continues.  Incompetence KILLS, folks.

Presentation to ARB now delayed until the 22nd of January.  Kenny says he has no idea why the delay, go ask the developer. Developer says trying to work on concerns brought forth by Council. Kenny says has no idea of what developer speaks.  Developer says no comment. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/01/09/norfolk-casino-developer-delays-city-review-of-latest-plans-until-later-this-month/

Edited January 9 by baobabs727

[mintscraft56]

They should build the casino in the soon to close mall. Now that I think of it. Their whole floor is already there, all they need to do is make a tower come out of it for a hotel. 

Edited January 11 by mintscraft56

[baobabs727]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:43 PM, Qdeathstar said:

The Portsmouth casino is pretty decent food wise. The steakhouse is nice… and the yard house is packed. I imagine they will be be figuring out how to open up more restaurants do to the success. I don’t know what you expected. It’s Portsmouth/Norfolk not DC….

 

 

If cordial sees money to be made they are willing to work with Norfolk. 

Oh boy. Well, for starters, we expected for the Pamunkey and J.Y. to live up to both the letter and spirit of their contract with the City of Norfolk. And if they had done so, we would now have a project that exceeds your rather modest expectations, and meets ours...at the very least.  I stand with  the opposition. What say you?

Edited January 16 by baobabs727

[baobabs727]

I have been in touch with my contacts at City Hall. The general feeling on Norfolk CC as of last Friday is that the Pamunkey have not delivered on promises made. Several members are unwilling to compromise much/accept this significantly watered down proposal.  

[mintscraft56]

I say force them to re-propose the tower proposal or no deal at all. We can take our chances with cordish. 

[EJ_LEWIS]

2 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

I say force them to re-propose the tower proposal or no deal at all. We can take our chances with cordish. 

It seems that this ship has sailed when it comes to Cordish building a casino.  So far the Pumunkeys have been a big disappointment.   

[br0guy]

Welp…

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/01/22/norfolk-casino-developers-pull-plans-from-public-review-again-citing-additional-design-work/

Edited January 23 by br0guy

[vdogg]

22 minutes ago, br0guy said:

Welp…

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/01/22/norfolk-casino-developers-pull-plans-from-public-review-again-citing-additional-design-work/

Sounds like the Pamunkey, AGAIN, tried to submit some bs and the city, AGAIN, said no. Good on the city for holding them to the requirements of the referendum, but I'm becoming less and less confident that this casino will happen at all...

[EJ_LEWIS]

Well just have to be happy that there is one casino in Hampton Roads (Portsmouth).  

[BFG]

Meanwhile the city of Portsmouth made $15M in tax revenue from Rivers last year. C'mon Pamunkey...get your [stuff] together.

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/01/23/rivers-casino-portsmouth-generates-250m-in-revenue-15m-in-city-taxes-in-first-full-year/

[EJ_LEWIS]

I am glad that the casino in Portsmouth is doing well.  Portsmouth has been the butt of jokes in Tidewater since I grew up down there.  Its great seeing them get this right.   I've lost all hope that Norfolk will pull off a casino.  

[baobabs727]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:43 AM, baobabs727 said:

And the sad saga continues.  Incompetence KILLS, folks.

Presentation to ARB now delayed until the 22nd of January.  Kenny says he has no idea why the delay, go ask the developer. Developer says trying to work on concerns brought forth by Council. Kenny says has no idea of what developer speaks.  Developer says no comment. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/01/09/norfolk-casino-developer-delays-city-review-of-latest-plans-until-later-this-month/

Good to know my reportage was correct, even if it did draw a few confused emojis lmfao.  As far as the PAMUNKEY go, and Richmond UP wack jobs, for that matter, time to take out the TRASH. I'd do that for free...and enjoy it. 

[Qdeathstar]

Any changes with developer/location have to be brought up by referendum again, right? How long before pamunkey looses its option? They have to start construction by 2025, right?

[HRVA]

1 hour ago, Qdeathstar said:

Any changes with developer/location have to be brought up by referendum again, right? How long before pamunkey looses its option? They have to start construction by 2025, right?

Developer can change without a referendum but the Pamunkey’s options on the property always made it unlikely that would happen. They really need to start construction this year. The lottery board won’t issue their license until construction is nearly complete and the license has to be issued within 5 years of the referendum so November 2025 is their deadline.

[NFKjeff]

An appeals court has upheld the dismissal of the $100M lawsuit brought by Cordish against the City of Norfolk regarding casino plans.

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/03/01/appeals-court-upholds-decision-dismissing-waterside-developers-casino-lawsuit-against-norfolk/

[vdogg]

5 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

An appeals court has upheld the dismissal of the $100M lawsuit brought by Cordish against the City of Norfolk regarding casino plans.

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/03/01/appeals-court-upholds-decision-dismissing-waterside-developers-casino-lawsuit-against-norfolk/

I almost wish they hadn't now.

[baobabs727]

In no way shape or form  does this decision affirm the competence or wisdom of City leadership in their dealings with Cordish.  Nay, 'tis more of a pyrrhic victory for the City attorney and staff in a routine contract dispute. 

Meanwhile, casino gambling in Norfolk is decidedly #notwinning. And tax coffers remain empty. 

[Arctic_Tern]

I mean just cause the Headwaters casino is failing, doesn't mean that Cordish is the 'good guy' here. Waterside, while it looks nice, has absolutely nothing going on/draws and I don't think that Cordish would have really put their all into making a casino next door work.  I dunno, feels like we're really idolizing a company here that isn't all that spectacular?

[baobabs727]

17 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

I mean just cause the Headwaters casino is failing, doesn't mean that Cordish is the 'good guy' here. Waterside, while it looks nice, has absolutely nothing going on/draws and I don't think that Cordish would have really put their all into making a casino next door work.  I dunno, feels like we're really idolizing a company here that isn't all that spectacular?

Not idolizing anyone or anything. The fact is though they had planned on building  apartment towers and a casino. That's what you call "critical mass." But the city stopped them at every turn. So now what you have is a glorified beer hall. If you think City leadership has done a great job managing Downtown over the last 5 to 10 years, be my guest.  I will admit that I have had  some insider information going all the way back to 2013, and I'm not at liberty to give specifics. Let's just say that the change in the mayor and city council makeup had a lot to do with the ill will, miscommunication and quashed plans. 

Edited March 3 by baobabs727

[Qdeathstar]

CordIsh would  have gotten the job done.

[baobabs727]

13 hours ago, Qdeathstar said:

CordIsh would  have gotten the job done.

Indeed. What Cordish did for Downtown KC  with One Light and Two Light is nothing short of remarkable. Gleaming glass towers. Highest rents in the City, some of which approach $4 and $5/sf!  (BTW, Louisville's Cordish-developed 4th Street LIVE! is also quite nice.  Almost 11K Google reviews @ 4.3/4 stars.)  

As I have said here before, Zed Smith, then VP at Cordish, told me way, way back that he wanted at least 1 brand new build apt. tower in DT Norfolk. Pencil-ish thin. Glass. Tall.  He said that the first one was likely to be located on the site of the (former) Waterside Marketplace annex. You know, the annex that the Fraim administration okayed Cordish to demolish (ostensibly b/c of programming difficulties there...but low keyh to make way for a new waterfront apt. tower).  Said annex site would eventually became a parking pad, as you know.  Well I know for a fact that the City was NOT under the impression that Corish had intended for said parking pad to remain a permanent fixture of Waterside District!  Ooops!

Then Fraim retired, and along came Kenny and several new councilpersons in 2016. And I started fielding more calls. Concerns were expressed. Requests for lunch meetings (which I politely declined) were extended.  Mr. Smith wanted to procure local intelligence gathering services...i.e., he wanted to know what these newly elected leaders were thinking, specifically regarding the apartment tower component.   

Fast forward a few weeks after the new CC persons/new Mayor were installed when, during a CC informal, the City Mgr circulated a glossy brochure about a waterfront apartment tower proposal adjacent to Waterside!  BOOM! POW! WOW! Were these new CC members ever aghast. At least 1 of the new members told the rest of CC  that she wasn't even going to look at the brochure. This after she had pointedly grilled  the City Mgr and staff on the origins and intent of such a brochure!  She basically declared any such waterfront tower DOA.  And why DOA, you ask? Because she claimed that the site was absolutely sacrosanct! Hallowed ground. And why hallowed, you ask? Because she claimed that the waterfront was for the people, and therefore any new, private development thereupon was verboten. Strictly prohibited. And this rule was codified, where?!  She claimed that her opinion on the subject mirrored a longheld, unwritten City position...one which was shared by the great citizens of Norfolk. OHHHHKAYYY.  

 

[Qdeathstar]

The smartest people are never in government.  Its a shame.

[baobabs727]

Bingo. Obviously, YOU work in the private sector!

[vdogg]

https://whro.org/news/local-news/44771-norfolk-officials-tribe-mum-on-what-s-happening-with-norfolk-s-casino

"The most recent designs - which were made public for city Architectural Review Board meetings before they were withdrawn - eliminated a marina that was depicted in previous versions of the casino project. 

 

But Alexander also said the council will not accept anything less than the $500 million hotel-casino resort complex that voters approved in the 2020 referendum.

Councilman JP Paige, who represents the area where the casino would be located, declined to detail recent conversations council members have had with the tribe about the development. 

Paige would say only “the citizens of Norfolk deserve the best.”

Reading between the lines here it's obvious the city thinks the Pamunkey are trying to pull a fast one on us, which they likely are. Hate to say it guys, but barring some miracle, I just don't see this happening. I'd love to be wrong about this, but a couple decades of watching projects get proposed and then die in this area tells me otherwise...