Soccer in Nashville

[markhollin]

A couple of scathing articles about the MLS's solvency.  For a while now, I've been claiming that the $150 million expansion fee is literally insane based on the actual revenues the teams get from their share of TV rights, merch, and, of course, ticket revenue.  It is only through the jacked-up expansion fees that are shared between the existing teams that they are able to make it work. Eventually, there won't be any cities left to expand into and the gravy train will end.  

There needs to be thorough vetting of this by everyone involved, and by an objective the press as well, to make sure we as a city are not left holding the bag for a stadium that might not have many uses should the league collapse.  

I think it's wise that Metro is only willing to give the land at this point (at least that's how I understand it).  I'm leaning heavily towards the idea that the private entities involved pay for the construction and upkeep themselves.  They can also reap more of the benefits for utilizing the arena for other events this way.  It will cause them to be much more aggressive in trying to cover their investment.

http://deadspin.com/is-mls-a-ponzi-scheme-1797509617

https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/13/if-mls-is-a-ponzi-scheme-taxpayers-will

 

 

[MLBrumby]

1 hour ago, Ingram said:

 

 

Well maybe we need to take up a collection to build a half billion to a billion dollar soccer stadium. Somebody has to pay for this and from what I understand so far these fools want taxpayers to do it. MLSs popularity is behind the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL. The people who want MLS ought to be glad there is even a stadium put forth and that there aren't enough fiscally concerned citizens to force a referendum. The Tennessee Titans are about eleven years or less from wanting a brand new stadium and are probably going to want a billion dollar palace at taxpayer expense. Neither should get taxpayer money but if the city has to make a choice then the NFL is far more valuable to the city than "major league soccer". 

Since you brought up Cincinnati, they are hesitant about getting fleeced for yet another stadium. I wish what you said about Cincinnati looking better than Nashville was true. Maybe people would be moving there in droves instead of Nashville.

Your defense of bland and boxy is noted. Of course, I was referring to the attitude, and not the price tag, which I believe has not been disclosed for this proposal. Although, it would be interesting to see a comparison of costs across proposed MLS stadiums when that information is available.

To your point, Nissan is more than adequate for its purposes, and its financing was (notably) Metro's first foray into the major pro sports biz. As you note, the citizens of Hamilton County (OH) were doubtlessly given a Hobson's choice (as the alternative would have been 1 or both teams leaving). So they voted for and got two shiny new sleek stadium. And don't think the same won't happen in Davidson County in 11 years, or sooner. However, I've never heard anyone claim that Nissan is aesthetically noteworthy. On the contrary, it's often described in sports media as bare-bones "tinker toy" and minimalist. Its dark, narrow ground concourses were already outdated when built. 

Ingram (you?) is not saying he's building what he/they can afford. He said the stadium will reflect Nashville's history, which sounds like Judge Robert Echol's exact words when his committee picked the Hampton, er, Federal Courthouse design. Cost couldn't be the reason in that case as Nashville was earmarked the largest amount in the FY budget for such a project. Zeroing in on Nissan Stadium misses the point, as I listed other examples of the bland and boxy in Nashville. As is noted often on this board, even privately developed buildings in Nashville lack "flair" "height" "grandeur" "design" "style" etc. that comparable buildings in other cities (even by the same developers) have as a matter of practice. 

Notwithstanding the funding differences between Cincy and Nashville, other stadium designs can be used for comparison. Bank of America stadium; Progressive Field; and Heinz Field to name three comparable and more attractive examples. Heinz probably is the closest that I've found in cost/design/time, but even it has an enclosed end-zone (no tacky barns or homey looking kiosks) and elements of design to make it unique.

 

[timmay143]

2 hours ago, UTgrad09 said:

Does it matter? Vanderbilt home games are just a host for 30k opposing fans. Moving to a smaller venue will just limit the number of people booing them.

It does matter.  It would be nice if people didn't crap on Vandy so much.  I don't see anything wrong with wanting to get Vanderbilt football to another level.

[PaulChinetti]

Would be interesting, I wonder how far "down" in the ground this would sit. Next to the track where the renders show would have this stadium towering over the track. 

A lot of money would have to be put into infrastructure in the area for sidewalks, connecting broken streets etc. etc. Not to mention, 4th and 2nd both being one-way and the tiny railroad bridge on 2nd and the tracks on 4th.

I'm for it, soccer is infinitely better to watch in person. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by PaulChinetti
addition

[Flatrock]

A bold prediction: American football in all of its forms, will disappear within 20 years. Perhaps much sooner. Studies on brain trauma continue to put forth pretty damning evidence. It's just a matter of time. Heck, i wouldn't let my son play. It also happens to be my favorite sport to watch (damnit)...but I can see its end on the horizon. MLS will become huge for many reasons,  but a gazillion passionate fans waiting to put their support behind something else other than NFL...will be a prime driver in the long term. Just get the dang team here, the rest is detail.  Our MLS team will eventually end up on the Titans property anyway,  just not sure when.

You think getting 30k people in and out of West End 19 times a season is going to be more fun than Nolensville Pike? You think parking in or near downtown will be easy/cheap? So the stadium designs are not up to your standards? Then stay home. 

Because I predict there are plenty of regional fans to take your place. Almost anywhere (within reason) inside 440 will be fine. Infrastructure will be concurrently enhanced. The designs will likely be just fine. Just get them here - and support every effort to do so.

Rant over.

 

[NashvilleObserver]

32 minutes ago, Flatrock said:

You think parking in or near downtown will be easy/cheap? So the stadium designs are not up to your standards? Then stay home. 

Because I predict there are plenty of regional fans to take your place. Almost anywhere (within reason) inside 440 will be fine. Infrastructure will be concurrently enhanced. The designs will likely be just fine. Just get them here - and support every effort to do so.

Flatrock you're my new favorite UP'er

[Ingram]

56 minutes ago, Flatrock said:

A bold prediction: American football in all of its forms, will disappear within 20 years. Perhaps much sooner. Studies on brain trauma continue to put forth pretty damning evidence. It's just a matter of time. Heck, i wouldn't let my son play.

 

 

American football is not going anywhere. I don't see certain demographics of people turning down the chance to make 7 to 8 figure incomes each year.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Ingram

[nashvylle]

9 minutes ago, Ingram said:

 

American football is not going anywhere. I don't see certain demographics of people turning down the chance to make 7 to 8 figure incomes each year.

7 to 8 figure incomes will go away if viewership goes away, which can happen if people stop watching it. 

[ruraljuror]

15 minutes ago, Ingram said:

 

I don't see certain types of people turning down the chance to make 7 to 8 figure incomes each year.

You're right but so is Flatrock.

Fewer kids will grow up playing football because of the brain injury risk and the fanbase for football will shrink.

Those certain types of people you refer to (exceptional athletes) will focus on learning other sports like soccer instead, increasing the fan bases of those sports and improving America's competitive standing on an international level.  

Eventually the quality of the NFL will drop as many exceptional athletes choose to play other professional sports that are increasingly lucrative as their fan bases grow, which will lead to further decline. 

That said, I doubt the NFL and professional football will disappear entirely, it just won't be king of the mountain forever.  After all, boxing is still a very lucrative sport and concussions are kind of the point there and there's never been any mystery about it.

Edited August 15, 2017 by ruraljuror

[nashvylle]

except boxers don't fight every Sunday. 

[ruraljuror]

5 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

except boxers don't fight every Sunday. 

Good point.

It would definitely make the NFL a lot more interesting from a strategic standpoint if each team got to have 250 players on their roster but each player was only permitted to play in 4 games during the regular season and once in the playoffs.

[markhollin]

Nashville could be in the mix as a 2026 World Cup site:

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/2017/08/15/nashville-world-cup-site/569789001/

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/08/15/nashville-asked-to-compete-for-2026-world-cup.html

 

[Flatrock]

34 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

7 to 8 figure incomes will go away if viewership goes away, which can happen if people stop watching it. 

True. But Nashvylle, I'm actually thinking it will be legislated out. I believe no one will have thw choice to play. They'll curtail, then eliminate contact football at younger ages (already happening ), then it diminishes in high school...then disappears. Once that happens, there's no pipeline for college ball...and behold - the end of NFL. We'll see.

[arkitekte]

26 minutes ago, Flatrock said:

True. But Nashvylle, I'm actually thinking it will be legislated out. I believe no one will have thw choice to play. They'll curtail, then eliminate contact football at younger ages (already happening ), then it diminishes in high school...then disappears. Once that happens, there's no pipeline for college ball...and behold - the end of NFL. We'll see.

There's  too much money involved in college and professional football for that to happen. No university that makes 30+ million a year from TV contract money is going to idly sit by and let that happen. The NFL divided 7.2 billion in revenue from tv contracts in 2015. 

[TNinVB]

7 hours ago, PHofKS said:

Sport's Illustrated is already out with the news.....

Interesting quote; 

 

See I don't get this mentality either. "Not something that looks like it was dropped from outer space", ummm have they not seen Bridgestone Arena???

[japan]

This design is surprising considering HOK did it.  Very bland for them.

[nashvylle]

Is there a timeline to discuss financing with metro?

[MidTenn1]

23 hours ago, markhollin said:

A couple of scathing articles about the MLS's solvency.  For a while now, I've been claiming that the $150 million expansion fee is literally insane based on the actual revenues the teams get from their share of TV rights, merch, and, of course, ticket revenue.  It is only through the jacked-up expansion fees that are shared between the existing teams that they are able to make it work. Eventually, there won't be any cities left to expand into and the gravy train will end.  

There needs to be thorough vetting of this by everyone involved, and by an objective the press as well, to make sure we as a city are not left holding the bag for a stadium that might not have many uses should the league collapse.  

I think it's wise that Metro is only willing to give the land at this point (at least that's how I understand it).  I'm leaning heavily towards the idea that the private entities involved pay for the construction and upkeep themselves.  They can also reap more of the benefits for utilizing the arena for other events this way.  It will cause them to be much more aggressive in trying to cover their investment.

http://deadspin.com/is-mls-a-ponzi-scheme-1797509617

https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/13/if-mls-is-a-ponzi-scheme-taxpayers-will

 

 

I want to see our City be big league in every way, but if there is no MLS in our future, I can live with a strong USL team here. But I would like to see the USL establish a 'Premier" , 16 team, division with the major metro areas represented in the league and some who will be rejected for expansion.

If that division included; (No MLS feeder teams).

• Nashville
• Oklahoma City
• Pittsburgh and/or Cleveland
• St. Louis
• Phoenix
• Riverside, Ontario, Inland Empire, Cali.
• San Diego
• Northern New Jersey
• Indianapolis
• Charlotte
• Raleigh
• San Francisco or Oakland
• San Antonio or Austin
• Louisville or Memphis
• Las Vegas
• Omaha or Tulsa or Rochester or, what the h***, Charleston

I left out Sacramento, Detroit and Cincinnati assuming they and one from the list above would be given an MLS franchise.

There would be some significant population support behind it and be less of a second tier league maybe and more like a 1.2 tier league. There would have to be some minimal stadium requirements and salary floors and ceilings to make it stable and be around when and if the MLS crashes.

[Flatrock]

2 hours ago, PHofKS said:

There would be some significant population support behind it and be less of a second tier league maybe and more like a 1.2 tier league. There would have to be some minimal stadium requirements and salary floors and ceilings to make it stable and be around when and if the MLS crashes.

Good idea and 100% with you - as a parallel strategy. Always want to have a Plan B and C in place. I've got to imagine the Wilf's and Ingram's  (and other key stakeholders) - have more than enough accumulated business acumen and sophistication to see through a Ponzi scheme. I'd imagine their respective teams' due diligence will be substantial. And although it appears it's a one-way courtship with the city and investors love fest towards the MLS , I'm sure the MLS and all its financial models/assumptions/history will be laid bare prior to a $150mm franchise fee being handed over. The MLS must prove itself worthy. Can't imagine otherwise. The Wilfs coming into this picture, even as a minority interest, has substantially moved the game pieces in our favor, IMO. It's fun to speculate about the Wilf's motives, e.g., why MLS?, why Nashville?,  etc. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Flatrock

[PruneTracy]

I hate to beat a dead horse but all this talk about whether leagues themselves are solvent would be irrelevant if they instituted promotion and relegation and let the well-managed clubs with sufficient resources rise to the top organically.

[grilled_cheese]

31 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

I hate to beat a dead horse but all this talk about whether leagues themselves are solvent would be irrelevant if they instituted promotion and relegation and let the well-managed clubs with sufficient resources rise to the top organically.

From everything I have read relegation is not and will never happen in the US.  These owners will have put too much money down for their teams to be dropped out of the big boy league.

Having said that, I really wish there was relegation over here.  How cool would it be if all our our sports leagues did it?

[markhollin]

Scouting the competition of all 12 cities' stadium plans that are looking at an MLS expansion team:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/08/16/scouting-the-competition-compare-nashvilles.html

[Titans10]

7 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Is there a timeline to discuss financing with metro?

They were hoping for October from what I've read

[titanhog]

4 hours ago, markhollin said:

Scouting the competition of all 12 cities' stadium plans that are looking at an MLS expansion team:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2017/08/16/scouting-the-competition-compare-nashvilles.html

Ours is easily the most conservative and un-flashy.

[nashvylle]

1 hour ago, titanhog said:

Ours is easily the most conservative and un-flashy.

Disagree. What makes St. Louis' so great? Tampa Bay's stadium looks like a texas high school football stadium.