The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[smeagolsfree]

I dont know about a barrier, but on street parking would be no more along the routes.

[nashvylle]

The BRT is the most important project in the Nashville pipeline right now. I really, really pray they we get this project implemented.

[Neigeville]

I really hope no one is seriously considering taking out the parallel parking lanes along the brt route. Unless thy plan to add some sort of barrier between the street and sidewalk.

There's no room for on street parking. We don't know the details of the plans, but some part of the expected budget is for streetscape improvements. I would hope that includes measures to insure pedestrians aren't expected to walk inches away from moving vehicles. I expect crosswalk improvements as well. Broadway is pretty intimidating to cross along the whole route.

[Nashvillain]

I guess they have a decent track record with streets cape improvements on Church and Deaderick streets. This project is on a much more massive scale. I hope they don't scrimp on the small stuff that will make the whole project come together and improve life for pedestrians as the whole point is to have more people out of their cars and on their feet.

[timmay143]

Continuing discussion from http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/115575-proposed-green-hills-project-s/page-3

 

I think aerial trams are a good idea, especially for Nashville.  We definitely need a whole system of some type of MT.  However, like noted before, Nashville is way behind.  I think the E/W is a good start to get MT funding in place.  Then Nashville can begin exploring many more options.  It's going to be and take awhile, IMO.  So for now we will just have to accept and deal with what we have are going to get (BRT lite, express buses, E/W, improved bus routes and timing, commuter HRT, etc).

 

However, we do need people to push innovative ideas such as aerial trams, el trains, etc.  It's probably going to take an integrated system of a little bit (well, almost) of everything.  Also, keep up the passion, we need this to somehow get the ball rolling on MT.  I think the E/W and Transit Now Nashville have done a fair job in promoting MT for Nashville.  While the E/W may not be the most ideal, at least it is something, and not just anything.

 

I've always thought about having an el train or monorail built above the interstates.  Probably, helluva expensive (and a pipe dream), but support columns could run   down the median where there is already a concrete wall and a shoulder.  Stations could be placed at intersecting bridges where on/off ramps exist.  Make the bridges have good access to nearby businesses/structures and for park and ride areas.  The aerial trams could also take advantage of this, but I am not sure how stations could be incorporated so often, especially if they have to lower altitude for access.

[dmillsphoto]

I also like the aerial tram idea, both in terms of land acquisition that would be required and the uniqueness of it.

 

My question is about timing though. Specifically, when it comes to the number of cars we have and how often they will have to stop to facilitate demand. If it takes 15 minutes to get from Green Hills to SoBro, for instance, how many cars would be required and at what capacity to make that happen with minimal stopages while in the air (suffice it to say, some would have a fear of being stuck). At what point does the time it takes to meet the capacity become ineffective?

 

Just a thought.

[barakat]

That's true.   I've only ridden trams a few times, but they aren't necessarily 'rapid.'  Then there are security and connectivity issues, but I guess that's with any system.  I'd rather see Hillsboro road excavated and a train tube buried from Hillsboro Village into Green Hills, with an above-ground line on 21st prior to HV.  Prohibitively expensive maybe, but seems like a good solution I've seen in other cites. 

I also like the aerial tram idea, both in terms of land acquisition that would be required and the uniqueness of it.

 

My question is about timing though. Specifically, when it comes to the number of cars we have and how often they will have to stop to facilitate demand. If it takes 15 minutes to get from Green Hills to SoBro, for instance, how many cars would be required and at what capacity to make that happen with minimal stopages while in the air (suffice it to say, some would have a fear of being stuck). At what point does the time it takes to meet the capacity become ineffective?

 

Just a thought.

[nashvillwill]

I'm going to take a side road in this conversation. I visited Seattle over thanksgiving for the first time and wanted to give my observations on what I saw.

First off, Seattle is a FANTASTIC city! If you've never been, put it on your list! It's a mid-sized city, comparable to Nashville, but with a much more densely developed "downtown". Part of that is due to topographical reasons (downtown is on a narrow strip of land between 2 bodies of water) and also because they seem to have a larger stock of older buildings. Much like Nashville, there was a lot of new construction going on, with many condo/apartment building under construction.

I was very impressed with what I saw in their transit system there, both roads and mass transit.

Mass transit;

Bus- The bus is king in Seattle. However the system seemed more comprehensive, since it isn't a single transfer/hub and spoke system like Nashville. There were many points of transfer, and all of the "downtown" was completely free.

While we do have the "green line" circulators in Nashville, other buses still cost to ride. Seattle had a designated "free zone". To illustrate for Nashville, you could catch ANY bus at, say, 2nd&Broadway and ride for free up until the inner loop.

They have many electric buses with overhead lines, but not everywhere.

Light Rail- In Seattle, there is one single line of light rail. It's a very interesting system with 3 different forms of travel on the single line.

•downtown- underground tunnel, much like a subway.

•surface streets- once out of the downtown, it travels on surface streets in a dedicated lane. It seemed to go through some lower income neighborhoods, but they were fairly dense and I saw a lot of new development.

•elevated- the last portion, the train moves up to an elevated track. There were few stops to the neighborhoods below, and it was essentially just an airport connector at this point. I would guess that the train travelled about 70mph on this section. It dropped us off right at the Sea-Tac terminal. The 35 minute ride from downtown to the airport was $2.25.

The underground tunnel- one of the most interesting things I saw was the underground transit tunnel. This tunnel served the light rail AND regular buses in the central core. The surface was about 4 lanes wide, so that buses can make passes in each direction. I'm not sure if it was built for the light rail, or if it pre-dates the rail, but it works well and makes a lot of sense to have a Multi-modal tunnel like that. I doubt we will ever see any underground transit in Nashville in our lifetimes, but i think the lesson is that if you're going to build one, build a WIDE one.

Monorail- there is a two station monorail left over from the worlds fair. It connects the central core to the space needle. It's handy for tourists, but not really transit. Just thought I would mention it.

Roads;

Park and ride buses- I noticed out in the 'burbs that there were park and rides in the center of the interstates. It is a good idea really. Left lane off-ramps to a parking lot where you can catch an express bus. I think this could work well in Nashville. It doesn't really increase the time I takes a driver to get to the park and ride (since they are generally right by freeway onramps), but probably significantly decreases the route time for a bus line.

Freeway Multi-directional lanes. I noticed on one of the freeways there were about 4 center lanes which went with the rush hour direction. I'm not sure if they were HOV/express/toll lanes, but it definitely adds rush hour capacity with fewer lanes. Probably also helps in case of a volcanic evacuation.

Bicycle infrastructure- it's the Pacific Northwest. Need I say more.

All in all, I was very impressed. I've been to larger cities where transit "just works". But many mid sized cities are plagued with transit systems that are confusing and hard to get point to point on multi-modal systems. Seattle's system seemed pretty easy to navigate and comprehensive enough that you weren't "left stranded" anywhere. I think it is a good role model of how Nashville might develop.

P.S.- Seattle is beautiful! Go there!

Edited November 29, 2012 by nashvillwill

[Hey_Hey]

As far as speed goes it will be a nonstop 20-25 mph, which will have them going a mile every 2.4-3 minutes. At that speed you'll be able to get from Green Hills to downtown in 10-12 minutes. It also would remain the same regardless if its rush hour or not.

I don't know how quickly additional units could be added. I would imagine there would be a depot at the end of the line that would be able to add them pretty efficiently. The teams/units actually come off the cable every time loading or unloading takes place, so physically attaching it to the wire is not difficult.

[po-boy]

The air tram idea is quite intriguing.  Here is an article proposing the same thing for Austin:

 

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/11/forget-subways-austin-needs-mass-transit-gondolas/4035/

[dmillsphoto]

Nothing really to say right this second but this... this is truly mesmerizing.

 

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/11/transit-visualizations/?pid=5565&viewall=true

[East Side Urbanite]

Nothing really to say right this second but this... this is truly mesmerizing.

 

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/11/transit-visualizations/?pid=5565&viewall=true

 

very cool, DMills,

 

WW

[po-boy]

Nothing really to say right this second but this... this is truly mesmerizing.

 

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/11/transit-visualizations/?pid=5565&viewall=true

 

Very cool!  Thanks for posting that.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Here's an article ESU wrote from a couple of weeks ago on MegaBus being relegated to a fairgrounds stop:

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2012/12/21/megabus_to_use_temporary_fairgrounds_stop

 

Great way to showcase our city to new visitors! Their first image of town is a dilapidated race track and some drug dealers.  Sometimes I wonder what the heck MTA is thinking.  If I were them, I'd be trying to get them to increase service by offering a berth at MCC.  Instead, they shove them off to a bad part of town with little or no interest to tourists or travelers.

[UTgrad09]

Here's an article ESU wrote from a couple of weeks ago on MegaBus being relegated to a fairgrounds stop:

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2012/12/21/megabus_to_use_temporary_fairgrounds_stop

 

Great way to showcase our city to new visitors! Their first image of town is a dilapidated race track and some drug dealers.  Sometimes I wonder what the heck MTA is thinking.  If I were them, I'd be trying to get them to increase service by offering a berth at MCC.  Instead, they shove them off to a bad part of town with little or no interest to tourists or travelers.

 

I agree that the Fairgrounds is an absolutely awful place for a service like that. Not only is it in an ugly, run down area, but it isn't really convenient to much of the public transit infrastructure (mainly talking about visitors). The only route it is close to that is a frequent route would be the Nolensville Rd. #12. So do they reroute the #12 to pick up at the unFairgrounds, or do these brave souls have to cross the street? Or is there a special shuttle that will run downtown (which in itself seems like a waste).

 

Why not give them temp access to the LP Field parking lot? At least it is potentially within walking distance of downtown, as well as closer to more major bus lines.

 

 

I like the long term idea of giving them a spot at James Robertson @ Bicentennial Mall. I understand that 5th @ Commerce had some problems. JRP already has a pullout at the mall...so no need to build anything new. It is next to some existing bus routes, yes, but the biggest benefit is it is on the Music City Circuit's Blue Line, which would give them a free shuttle into the heart of downtown...and it is also within walking distance of the main bus terminal. The only issue I can really think of is parking (for pickups and drop offs), in which case LP Field would be a more suitable location in general.

[Nathan_in_DC]

I agree that the Fairgrounds is an absolutely awful place for a service like that. Not only is it in an ugly, run down area, but it isn't really convenient to much of the public transit infrastructure (mainly talking about visitors). The only route it is close to that is a frequent route would be the Nolensville Rd. #12. So do they reroute the #12 to pick up at the unFairgrounds, or do these brave souls have to cross the street? Or is there a special shuttle that will run downtown (which in itself seems like a waste).

 

Why not give them temp access to the LP Field parking lot? At least it is potentially within walking distance of downtown, as well as closer to more major bus lines.

 

 

I like the long term idea of giving them a spot at James Robertson @ Bicentennial Mall. I understand that 5th @ Commerce had some problems. JRP already has a pullout at the mall...so no need to build anything new. It is next to some existing bus routes, yes, but the biggest benefit is it is on the Music City Circuit's Blue Line, which would give them a free shuttle into the heart of downtown...and it is also within walking distance of the main bus terminal. The only issue I can really think of is parking (for pickups and drop offs), in which case LP Field would be a more suitable location in general.

 

Any spot with easy access to the circulators would be ideal. As it stands, I see absolutely no benefit or reasoning behind sticking them out to the Fairgrounds.

 

I'm not the type to think conspiracy theories, but this really makes me wonder if Greyhound has some supporters in the MTA that don't like a competitor coming to town.

[UTgrad09]

I'm not the type to think conspiracy theories, but this really makes me wonder if Greyhound has some supporters in the MTA that don't like a competitor coming to town.

Could be. I have no clue. Though I think any reasonable person realizes that competition is usually a good thing here. It usually causes the old party to raise their game a bit (see: Kroger and Publix).

[drewbert]

Yeah, that's a useless spot for Megabus. Amazed they agreed to that. For what it's worth, here's what I could find from metro parking on the problems with the previous stop. See page 2. http://www.nashville.gov/pw/docs/meetings/2012/1112sr.pdf

[Nathan_in_DC]

Could be. I have no clue. Though I think any reasonable person realizes that competition is usually a good thing here. It usually causes the old party to raise their game a bit (see: Kroger and Publix).

 

Entrenched quasi-monopolies, and those who support them, aren't necessarily known for following the most logical courses of action.  Of course, it's a huge leap to assume that there was some ill intent on the part of the MTA here, but I honestly can't see any other reason for sticking them out there.  Maybe MegaBus just refused to play ball with them or was demanding some special concessions, I don't know, but from the information at hand it really makes no sense whatsoever.

[producer2]

Megabus was/is totally freeloading folks. They don't spend a dime for anything in our City and use our resources for their profit. Whether you like the competitors or not ( Greyhound) at least they spent money on infrastructure, pay local taxes, put their drivers in local hotel rooms, buy fuel, etc. in Nashville. Why should the City do ANYTHING to help Megabus?

[BnaBreaker]

Because they are providing the residents of a city sorely lacking in non-automobile orriented transportation options, a somewhat convenient, highly affordable non-autombile orriented transportation option.  They are providing a badly needed service to the city.  So what if they don't pay taxes?  Why should they?  They don't have any facilities or stations to maintain, which is how they keep their prices so low.  In what way are they hurting the city?  It's not like simply allowing them to use a parking lot that is more central and more convenient for Nashville's own residents is a sacrifice.  To me, this is a move that hurts Nashville residents more than it does Megabus. 

Edited January 3, 2013 by BnaBreaker

[Nathan_in_DC]

Megabus was/is totally freeloading folks. They don't spend a dime for anything in our City and use our resources for their profit. Whether you like the competitors or not ( Greyhound) at least they spent money on infrastructure, pay local taxes, put their drivers in local hotel rooms, buy fuel, etc. in Nashville. Why should the City do ANYTHING to help Megabus?

 

Just because they don't put a driver in a local hotel room or have a big bus station doesn't mean that they won't have a positive impact on the city.  At the very least, they provide affordable transportation options to the residents of the city.  In reality, they help bring visitors to town who otherwise may not come.  The fifty or a hundred or five hundred dollars a tourist or visitor may save by taking MegaBus instead of flying or taking Greyhound is money that they will have available to spend here.  Anyway, the city subsidizes most airlines that fly in through a similar fashion.  Many flights that land in Nashville drop off one load of passengers and pick up another, sometimes not refueling, and, depending on crew hours, possibly not switching crews.

 

Giving people an affordable option to visit town is always good for the city.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Nathan_in_PHL

[BnaBreaker]

I can say from personal experience that I have taken random weekend trips on Mega Bus to cities I may otherwise never visit simply because I could easily afford it.

[producer2]

Airlines pay thousands of dollars in fees to each city they operate in. As do every other type of private for profit transportation companies. Megabus is having similar problems in other municipalities. They also have a terrible safety record.

[Neigeville]

I went to DC for forty bucks round trip, and lived to tell the tale. I could not have gone if not for Megabus.

 

Like the Little Clinics in Kroger, or oil change places, they're skimming off the easy stuff (big city to big city nonstop travel) and leaving the hard and unprofitable to others. Like Amazon.com, their business model is wriggling out of fees, taxes and infrastructure costs that others have to pay.

 

It's questionable, but that should be part of a larger conversation. I think a lot of the economic "creative destruction" that's happened the last 20 years is more destruction than creation. For instance, I'd rather have all those bookstores that are gone now, than Amazon.