The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[nashvillwill]

City paper link;

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/feds-deliver-3m-metro-electric-buses-downtown-circuit

[Nathan_in_DC]

After further perusing the Circuit schedules and routes, I would like to reiterate how much increased service is needed. Service after 11:00PM is a must, when many people would still be able and willing to use it to get to, from and between venues around downtown. This will be even more important once KVB and MCC are finished and we start seeing more activity along that thoroughfare. Convention goers and visitors staying in the hotels will most certainly want to get around after 11:00PM. Sunday service will be vital, too, especially during the summer tourist season.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Nathan_in_PHL

[chelovek]

After further perusing the Circuit schedules and routes, I would like to reiterate how much increased service is needed. Service after 11:00PM is a must, when many people would still be able and willing to use it to get to, from and between venues around downtown.

One of the reasons why many cities take buses off the road at night despite the potential for riders is that you would need to have the garage open and staffed for your vehicles to come back and refuel. As I understand it, the electric buses that are operating in East LA can run 24 hours a day and never need to return to the garage, since they "refuel" autonomously at one of the stops. Also, maintenance costs are significantly lower on electric vehicles, which, combined with cheaper operating costs means more money in the operating budget down the line.

I'm like you guys- I would have loved to see an announcement about more music city star lines, light rail, amtrak!!!, or other cool things like that, but after looking into this technology I have to say I'm excited. Check out this video from Jay Leno's Garage about the Proterra BE35:

Edited September 14, 2012 by chelovek

[Neigeville]

If this means they can run the free circulators more often and later I'm very excited. It makes me sad when I see those buses empty, although I'm not downtown during commuter and lunch times so I don't have a realistic idea how many riders they have overall.

I do know from living in Chicago without a car for 5 years, it's like day and night, the difference between every 15 minutes and every 5 minutes. People with a choice don't really start using transit en masse until they can get where they're going without checking a schedule or worrying about transfer times.

For instance on Clark St in Chicago, a bus leaves the terminal every 3 minutes most of the day--Chicago streets are long, straight, and flat so you just walk to Clark St and you can literally always see several buses coming. Those buses aren't free but they're always pretty full because they're so easy to use. It helps that in Chicago most of the routes can be simply up and down one of those long streets, so the system is incredibly easy to figure out. The Devon St bus runs the length of Devon St, etc. Our screwy street system doesn't facilitate that either.

We've got a long way to go and it's obviously a chicken/egg thing--we need more riders to offer more service, we need more service to attract more riders--but I can easily see the free DT buses becoming a more intricate version of the crowded free buses that go constantly up and down 16th Ave in Denver, especially as the convention center kicks into action. Of course we'd need more than 3 buses...

[timmay143]

Yeah, we definitely over-hyped ourselves on this one! None the less, it is still good news. I know Chatt has had free electric DT shuttles for a long time now and have been very successful.

[smeagolsfree]

I was expecting something more with an announcement but this is good news. I was on the blue line yesterday and it was over half full.

[Nathan_in_DC]

I was expecting something more with an announcement but this is good news. I was on the blue line yesterday and it was over half full.

By all accounts it has been a very good success, especially in relation to the normal news relating to Nashville transit.

Like I said though, more frequent and later service is going to be a necessity for it to be a real success.

[Guest]

I would add to the discussion about the Circuit in Nashville is that it is 'free' to the rider (funding by Metro) .... I do not believe its success or lack of success will correlate to the BRT, or light rail if that were on the table. Once you eliminate the cost normal economic considerations do not apply.

[Nathan_in_DC]

I would add to the discussion about the Circuit in Nashville is that it is 'free' to the rider (funding by Metro) .... I do not believe its success or lack of success will correlate to the BRT, or light rail if that were on the table. Once you eliminate the cost normal economic considerations do not apply.

I'm not so sure. I am not convinced that if you made every bus in Nashville free it would significantly increase ridership due to the stigma attached with it, unpredictable or unknown routes, infrequent service, et cetera. Circulator routes like this, however, are free from all of those problems. They're seen as being used by tourists and business people, they follow an easy to understand circuit, and they're there on a regular timetable.

Properly executed BRT, while not free, will also shed many of those stigmas. No one balks at taking a subway, elevated rail, or regularly scheduled trolley service, and hopefully Nashville will sell BRT as something other than another bus line. Whether or not they will actually do that, I do not know.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Okay, so this is a massive pipe dream and it probably will never happen, but I was inspired by a recent plan by a tourism and development group to institute a small-scale water taxi service on the Delaware.

How would a water taxi suit Nashville as a commuter and public transit service?

Here's a thrown together route map I played with...

Anyway, for a boat averaging just 16kts, it would take around a half hour to get from Madison to Downtown, significantly less than a bus, with much more predictability and reliability.

A more scall scale project, say, from Opryland to Germantown, would be an even shorter trip, which could mean more stops, potentially.

Am I crazy in thinking that this would be a viable plan?

[MidTenn1]

There was a water taxi service from the Opryland Hotel to downtown a decade or so ago. But, I remember a lot of complaints from people who lived along the river. And the boats had to go so slow so they would not create a wake which would erode the river banks.

I'm not sure why Gaylord gave up on it.

[Nathan_in_DC]

There was a water taxi service from the Opryland Hotel to downtown a decade or so ago. But, I remember a lot of complaints from people who lived along the river. And the boats had to go so slow so they would not create a wake which would erode the river banks.

I'm not sure why Gaylord gave up on it.

Ah, the wonders of NIMBYism. There are hundreds of cities that successfully utilize water taxi services, ranging from cities laced with canals to cities on river banks to cities on bays and harbors. Except for reasons of excessive regulation, there really is no reason for Nashville not to have one, as far as I can see.

[Guest]

This is pretty cool. Pictures of the old 'mass-transit' in Nashville. This is the Gallatin-Nashville streetcar.

Also, this website has some good pictures from Nashville's history.

[nashvylle]

Can you provide a link?

Cool find, thanks

[Guest]

my bad

http://historicnashville.wordpress.com/

[nashvylle]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444358804578016191463503384.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_careerjournal

Hopefully BRT is in Nashville's near future!

[nashvylle]

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/mayor-s-bus-rapid-transit-plan-veers-away-lower-broadway

I think this redirection is a good idea.

[nashvillwill]

Good call if you ask me.

By avoiding that section of lower broadway it would avoid a potential bottleneck in service, not to mention to lower the risk of the inevitable lawsuit of some drunk walking in front of the train.

Also, by traveling down 5th Ave. we have the potential of revitalization of the commercial district on 5th. That area has so much potential, but needs a shot in the arm. BRT could be that shot.

The only downside is that it will stop short of the MCS train station. I don't see that as a big dilemma honestly.

[Hey_Hey]

The one thing I would be concerned about with this routing is that it will be two more blocks from Riverfront Station and the Music City Star. Ideally, someone could get off of the MCS and step right onto the BRT to get to work on West End. While that was never in the plan to have BRT and heavy rail in the same location, it was much closer when it was planned to travel down 3rd. If they move it to 5th it will essentially double the distance and time for someone to walk to the nearest BRT stop once they get off the Star. I'm afraid that's going to be an impediment to many people, because now they have to worry about the time it takes to walk that distance, the weather, and the inconvenience. My concern is with those additional variables that many people will come to the conclusion that driving will just be easier. Nashville has to do everything it can to serve the potential rider since transit is not in the DNA of this area's population. That means making things as easy and fast as possible.

One other potential route would be to cross the BRT over to Demonbreun around 4th or 5th and then have it turn onto 1st Ave with a BRT stop at Riverfront Station. From there it could continue on a BRT only 1st Ave until it cross the bridge over the Cumberland. The benefits of that route is that it would largely keep lower Broad the same, it would put a BRT station at Bridgestone and on the front step of the convention center, it would completely integrate BRT with rail, and it would provide a fast transit time through downtown by making 1st Ave exclusive for BRT.

[nashvylle]

Very interesting ideas Hey Hey.

[nashvillwill]

Hey Hey,

That's a good idea, but the downfall to that is that BRT wouldn't directly connect with the MCC bus terminal. It seems like we are d@mned either way. But if I had to pick one of the two, I would connect with MCC. The BRT crowd is much more likely to use other buses as connections than the small minority of people on the MCS. Besides, I think the site of the MCC is a much better point of transfer than Riverfront Station for the 9-5 crowd (which is the bread and butter of any successful transit system). Honestly, I would say that a BRT direct connection to the MCC is CRITICAL for the success of that service.

Additionally, the MCS WILL eventually expand to other lines. It's really only a matter of time. Its a novelty now, but in a decade or two it will be a necessity. Using the ROW's we currently have, it's likely that all lines will converge somewhere around Union Station, and I would expect they would include the existing Lebanon line into that mix.

Also, when BRT starts making too many turns, it begins to get "confusing" for people. Straight lines are easy to understand. This could prove to be critical for the transit virgins of Nashville.

Edited October 1, 2012 by nashvillwill

[MLBrumby]

All the more reason for the BRT line to go down Church Street. I am sure more people live along church than West End, and with two large med centers, there is plenty of demand along that corridor. That's the best place for future LRT too.

Edited October 1, 2012 by MLBrumby

[bwithers1]

One other potential route would be to cross the BRT over to Demonbreun around 4th or 5th and then have it turn onto 1st Ave with a BRT stop at Riverfront Station. From there it could continue on a BRT only 1st Ave until it cross the bridge over the Cumberland. The benefits of that route is that it would largely keep lower Broad the same, it would put a BRT station at Bridgestone and on the front step of the convention center, it would completely integrate BRT with rail, and it would provide a fast transit time through downtown by making 1st Ave exclusive for BRT.

I'm all in favor of having 1st be BRT only except maybe for the delivery trucks that stock the bars/restaurants that face 2nd. One thing about it though, is that the BRT would still have to loop back into downtown in order to get to the Music City Central bus depot. I still think that that is achievable.

Otherwise, why not just have the BRT go straight up 5th to the Music City Central rather than turn at Commerce and go up 3rd and still loop backwards for that turnaround?

[nashvillwill]

Otherwise, why not just have the BRT go straight up 5th to the Music City Central rather than turn at Commerce and go up 3rd and still loop backwards for that turnaround?

^^^This!

The only tricky thing about BRT on 5th is that there is (currently) not enough room for a dedicated lane without some reconfiguration.

Currently- 3 lanes. 2 auto lanes (one way) and 1 parking lane.

Possibilities;

1 BRT lane, 1 auto lane, 1 parking

1 BRT lane , 2 auto, no parking

2 BRT lane, 1 auto, no parking

2 BRT lane, 0 auto, pedestrian only (enhanced sidewalks)

1 BRT lane, 0 auto, pedestrian only (greatly enhanced sidewalks)

-OR, current setup. BRT waits in traffic with everyone else. Of course 5th is one way, so Westbound BRT would have to take another route.

Pedestrian only streets would be great in my opinion, but that might be "out there".

Edited October 1, 2012 by nashvillwill

[bwithers1]

I see what you are saying, but the existing (now old?) proposal was to have the BRT go up 3rd Ave from Broadway to the Music City Central bus station (again, making a left at Charlotte I think). So essentially, there would be two lanes of BRT (with the stops along the existing sidewalk rather than a center median platform) with one lane left to allow traffic into and out of the parking garages on 3rd.

Similarly, if I understand it correctly, this would still be the case for the one block of 5th Ave North on the block where the Ryman is located. So you could drive up 5th to Broadway, then squeeze over into the one lane for one block, and then drive freely again from Commerce on northeawrd.

I guess that technically, the BRT could use dedicated lanes and so it could run north or south on 5th regardless of the direction of travel in the regular traffic lane. But I can see some advantages to having it run north on 5th and south on 4th so that it would only take up one lane of each of those streets; plus, that would simplify the turnaround at the Music City Central bus station.