The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Guest]

Friends,

Earlier this week, I rode the Cleveland HealthLine (full BRT but the traffic signalization was not working) and it is quite nice. The busses and stops look very cool. Easy to use and can cover five miles fairly quickly. I saw a good bit of recently comleted urban infill along the line. Opened in 2008 and is the prototype.

WW

WW, Did you snap any pictures that you can share?

Thanks

[Shuzilla]

As for a woodmont/green hills line, that would be great, but where would you put it? Woodmont between Harding Rd and Franklin/8th is only two lanes wide and full of affluent, change-resisting and lawyered up people.

There's been a plan to widen Woodmont, at least from Harding to Hillsboro Rd, for 50 years. The people opposing that, mostly having bought into the area after plans were made known, are getting old. When that road is widened, it needs to incorporate some consideration for mass transit. That cuts the battles from two to one.

Meantime, normal buses can run this route and can go through neighborhoods that are at most times devoid of vehicular traffic for more direct access to specific points. Of course the roads in these areas are so far behind needs it's hard to find a street that isn't being used as a cut-through during rush hours.

[MTSUBlueraider86]

I invited the Transit Now organizers to the next forum meet via Facebook. They said they would try to make it! Hopefully at the next UP forum meet we will have some Transit Now people.

[producer2]

I invited the Transit Now organizers to the next forum meet via Facebook. They said they would try to make it! Hopefully at the next UP forum meet we will have some Transit Now people.

Ed Cole is going to speak at the next URA business meeting, August 20th at 6:30. Location is the Nashville Downtown Partnership. 250 4 th Ave. or the corner of 4th and Commerce.

[producer2]

Did anyone attend any of the public meetings and what were your thoughts?

[East Side Urbanite]

WW, Did you snap any pictures that you can share?

Thanks

NBound,

I did not but I've got some I can send you. There are many cool photos on the Internet of the HealthLine. It's quite nice.

WW

[chelovek]

Does anybody else think that Charlotte Ave is a better choice for the east-west connector than West End? The redevelopment potential for Charlotte seems WAY greater than West End- although there are plenty of eyesores along West End, it is significantly more built out than Charlotte. Charlotte also seems to be at the beginning of a major upswing and the neighborhoods that surround it are way more walkable, affordable, and dense than West End neighborhoods. I see way more potential transit riders- students, young professionals, families, and workforce- living off of charlotte than off of west end. I had this in mind when I made my fantasy Nashville transit map a few months ago (http://www.flickr.com/photos/smada/6287891623/in/photostream for more details).

I'm a regular bus rider and I'm glad that the city is pursuing new transit projects, but I have a great fear that the EW connector is going to be a big flop because there are relatively few potential riders within walking distance of much of the route. When motorists see shiny new brt buses in dedicated lanes with few occupants, public opinion could swing back against transit, which would stink. I get the feeling that west end corridor was a done deal before the EW connector study was even commissioned, which bums me out because it seems like the only thing West End has going for it is Prestige and Name Recognition. I hope that after 175 million spent, those of us who actually use transit to get around (or would like to) end up with a measurable improvement in service. Sadly, this project doesnt really inspire much confidence in that outcome for me.

[producer2]

i agree that Charlotte has potential but not sure how your argument stacks up against West End/ Broadway in terms of potentital riders. You have virtually all the same hospitals, colleges (Vanderbilt is closer to WE and has many more employees) and on the tourism side the needs are far stronger on the current route. Car gridlock is also worse and that is probably one of the main goals of the project to alleviate that issue. Hopefully it moves forward, works and there is a need for more lines.

[timmay143]

I think you are right that the corridor was pretty much set down WE due to the people getting the ball rolling. However, I think the corridor will be fine with ridership and success which should spur enthusiasm for other lines such as Charlotte Pike. The WE corridor is already pretty dense and very active which will help with initial success. Plus, like you said, it has the name and recognition. However, I can see Charlotte being a very viable line and maybe even connect like a loop to the E/W line. I also understand the need for people who actually use it to get it, but W/E has the big name and I think it will get people who don't normally rise transit to ride. Hopefully, Charlotte will be a priority in the near future.

Nice map BTW!

Edited July 23, 2012 by timmay143

[chelovek]

i agree that Charlotte has potential but not sure how your argument stacks up against West End/ Broadway in terms of potentital riders. You have virtually all the same hospitals, colleges (Vanderbilt is closer to WE and has many more employees) and on the tourism side the needs are far stronger on the current route. Car gridlock is also worse and that is probably one of the main goals of the project to alleviate that issue. Hopefully it moves forward, works and there is a need for more lines.

I should have been more clear- yes, i totally agree that there are a ton of great destinations along the west end corridor. However, at the end of the day riders have to go home to sleep. And at the beginning of the next day, they need to find a way back to their bus stop. West End just doesn't strike me as having many transit friendly residential or mixed use areas within walking distance of the proposed stops. People would either be driving in to use BRT or transferring off of other bus lines (and since we don't have free transfers and few of our bus lines intersect outside of the depot, this process scares away potential transit converts). I don't see BRT being much of a game changer if most new riders have to drive a car to access it. Aside from tourists staying in downtown hotels and officeworkers on their lunch break, there is not a huge built in ridership along West End. My impression from regular bus use is that the current service is quick, reliable, and appropriate for this corridor. I've certainly never had trouble finding a seat on the 3, 5, or 11 and I ride these routes regularly.

Charlotte, on the other hand, has dense®, walkable neighborhoods within a block or two of the arterial all the way out past White Bridge. Tourists (literally) come and go and they also don't vote in Davidson County. I think if we want to get the ball rolling on useful next gen transit, we should be thinking of ways to entice residents. They are the ones capable of generating long term support.

Edited July 23, 2012 by chelovek

[producer2]

lets say we put it on Charlotte. Where is the user riding to? Where are most of the office buildings and other job sites in the area? What is the best way for me to get to St. Thomas or Vandy? If I am a resident of downtown (and there are now thousands who live inside of Charlotte over to the Gulch) how can I ride to either east nashville or West End for dinner, etc. without using my car. It just seems to me that the current route is more centered to both sides of the populous in the area than Charlotte. You may have statistics that show otherwise.

And we should not forget that there is still bus service in these other areas. I think the major point is to alleviate some of the car congestion on this artery. It is the most used artery in the County.

Edited July 24, 2012 by producer2

[Guest]

Again, I am happy with the existing bus service.

I find it counterintuitive that eliminating vehicular lanes along 'the most used artery in the County' will accomplish the goal of "alleviate car congestion along West End". I assume the plan is a combination of eliminating the turn lane and narrowing the remaining lanes to keep the two-way lane count static. At the same time one bicyclist in a narrowed lane can turn rush-hour traffic into a nightmare. I am probably over thinking this..... after all if traffic is made bad enough on West End I am sure the EWBRT will be a huge success. ha

Now on to the funding .... which the City Paper surmises will be a special tax for those close to the line....lovely.

BTW here is a list of some 'costs' from a very pro-BRT site> (I am listing th elite so you can see the benefits and cost but we have heard about th benefits quite often....please note the last two bold items on the list.

Costs

Direct Costs

• Capital costs of materials and equipment.
  
• Delay for travelers in mixed-flow travel lanes.
  
• Infrastructure construction costs (including roadway improvements, bus shelters, IT).
  
• Capital costs for new buses.
  
• Operations and maintenance costs.
  
• Overhead expenses of business, commercial and government fleets using mixed-flow travel lanes resulting from traffic delays in mixed-flow lanes.
  
• Enforcement costs to prohibit use of dedicated lanes by other traffic.
  
  
  Social Costs
  • Costs of traffic delays during construction.
    
  • Costs of noise pollution.
    
  • Costs of emissions if congestion on remaining lanes of highway increases.
    
  • Costs of travel delay to others if congestion on remaining lanes of highway increases.
    

[ariesjow]

Does anyone know if there are anymore East-West Connector forums in the works? I missed the first round, but I want to catch one of the next ones.

[producer2]

Again, I am happy with the existing bus service.

I find it counterintuitive that eliminating vehicular lanes along 'the most used artery in the County' will accomplish the goal of "alleviate car congestion along West End". I assume the plan is a combination of eliminating the turn lane and narrowing the remaining lanes to keep the two-way lane count static. At the same time one bicyclist in a narrowed lane can turn rush-hour traffic into a nightmare. I am probably over thinking this..... after all if traffic is made bad enough on West End I am sure the EWBRT will be a huge success. ha

Now on to the funding .... which the City Paper surmises will be a special tax for those close to the line....lovely.

BTW here is a list of some 'costs' from a very pro-BRT site> (I am listing th elite so you can see the benefits and cost but we have heard about th benefits quite often....please note the last two bold items on the list.

Costs

Direct Costs

• Capital costs of materials and equipment.
  
• Delay for travelers in mixed-flow travel lanes.
  
• Infrastructure construction costs (including roadway improvements, bus shelters, IT).
  
• Capital costs for new buses.
  
• Operations and maintenance costs.
  
• Overhead expenses of business, commercial and government fleets using mixed-flow travel lanes resulting from traffic delays in mixed-flow lanes.
  
• Enforcement costs to prohibit use of dedicated lanes by other traffic.
  
  Social Costs
  • Costs of traffic delays during construction.
    
  • Costs of noise pollution.
    
  • Costs of emissions if congestion on remaining lanes of highway increases.
    
  • Costs of travel delay to others if congestion on remaining lanes of highway increases.
    

  The point is to reduce the number of cars on the artery. 1 bus is equivalent to 40 cars. Put them side by side and it is obvious which one creates a smaller footprint. The social costs make no sense to me. Traffic delays happen when you increase the size of the thouroughfare which is inevitable if you don't find a beter solution. Cars create noise pollution (and smog, etc.) And costs of emmissions if traffic increases is just plain silly (or reaching for straws). As for your other points....yes things cost money.

  There are plans for all of the issues you raised including turn lanes, etc. Change is sometimes hard but often times needed. Status Quo gets you nowhere.

Edited July 24, 2012 by producer2

[MTSUBlueraider86]

P2 is right, status quo does indeed get you nowhere. I remember back in the early 1970's (I am 49 now) there was talk of a subway system in Nashville. The naysayers won that argument and subsequent battle, although not greatly publicized, because they said the cost was too great. The line would have run down Broadway/West End but it was determined the cost of excavating the rock was too expensive and they also determined the city would not grow enough. Funny, Manhattan Island is a bedrock of Granite and they somehow found a way.

In any case, the census for Davidson County in 1970 was around 400,000 now it is around 650,000 40 years later. At that time families had one car, now families have as many as 3 or 4 cars. The city will continue to grow for many reasons. Economics, weather, taxes and many other factors are bringing people here, and it makes sense to me to offer BRT as a viable alternative. Fiscal conservatives always worry about costs, except when it benefits their causes like tax breaks for the wealthy, or tax breaks for companies moving jobs overseas, but this is not a political discussion.

For Nashville to grow, we must take financial risk even if that means raising taxes. I am willing to help fund this project. I don't make a lot of money, but I am willing to pay more. I am willing to pay because I know what we could have had 40 years ago and were to afraid to do so. For those my age or older on the progressive side we can remember what it was like in Nashville back in the 1970's. I wish my good friend Dave Luna was still with us, because he could really enlighten us on this issue.

There comes a time when risk is needed to achieve the reward on the other end.

[Guest]

P2 I agree that a bus is designed to remove core from the roadway. I will not even quibble that, at maximum efficiency, the ratio may indeed by 40:1.

We all know that in reality that is far from the case. If it take 10 out-of-town conventioneers to J. Alexander's for dinner you have removed 3 cabs at most or they could have hopped on the existing MTA 3 or 5 bus for no benefit. Also what is the projected utilization%? I do not know about you but the Green Circuit busses I see quite frequently are empty or have 1 out of your potential 40 riders. I would actually like to see user stats for this line as it could be instructive.

Anyway, I seem to be the odd voice (again). If Metro plows this through and screw-the-pooch mass transit will be set-back in Nashville for quite some time.... That is not my goal.

[Guest]

I am all for calculated risk taking, but not for rash actions. Especially government actions the seem predetermined and disingenuous. Why hold community meeting with no answers? I did not attend any of the meeting because people I spoke with that did attend said answers were not forthcoming....though there were plenty of pretty pictures. Why wait to disclose a funding source until the same month the grant application is due? No, the process is one designed to minimize input not encourage public discourse. Evidently the answers will come in August. I do hope so as even EWBRT cheerleaders should be interested in the details to see if this is a 'good' risk.

Doing something for the sake of doing something is unwise. Metro will only get one chance to do this correctly. Indeed, if the future of mass transit in Nashville is your primary concern, you should be at the front of the line asking the hard questions and being skeptical to ensure its best chance for success.

As always ...IMO.

[timmay143]

Which Comes First? Good Public Transportation or a Public Who Uses Public Transportation?

http://www.nashville...-transportation

Edited July 24, 2012 by timmay143

[producer2]

I am all for calculated risk taking, but not for rash actions. Especially government actions the seem predetermined and disingenuous. Why hold community meeting with no answers? I did not attend any of the meeting because people I spoke with that did attend said answers were not forthcoming....though there were plenty of pretty pictures. Why wait to disclose a funding source until the same month the grant application is due? No, the process is one designed to minimize input not encourage public discourse. Evidently the answers will come in August. I do hope so as even EWBRT cheerleaders should be interested in the details to see if this is a 'good' risk.

Doing something for the sake of doing something is unwise. Metro will only get one chance to do this correctly. Indeed, if the future of mass transit in Nashville is your primary concern, you should be at the front of the line asking the hard questions and being skeptical to ensure its best chance for success.

As always ...IMO.

I am at the front of the line and I have asked questions. Whoever told you that there was no give and take did you an injustice. I don't agree with some of the current plans, routes, etc. but I am a progressive and I do believe that better public transport is a right just like public education, protective services, etc.. Things are not always perfect but not trying to change is not an option for me. I respect your opinion but we may not agree.

Edited July 24, 2012 by producer2

[Guest]

Agreed. : )

I am sure Nashville will still be great regardless of the outcome.

[nashvillwill]

What is the big concern about removing the center turn lane from West End/Broadway? That should have been removed years ago. In high density areas, these turn lanes make things more dangerous for everyone around, especially pedestrians/cyclists. With these lanes, every business has a curb cut, and pedestrians have to be on high alert while walking down the sidewalk. Cars often make high speed turns in front of oncoming traffic, without regard to sidewalk users/cyclists. Besides, what is the big deal about getting to a business that is across a median? Is circling the block or, heaven forbid, planning ahead really that difficult for people? I would happily pay the $175 million just to get rid of that center turn lane.

When they recent re-aligned the stretch of Hillsboro Rd.(between 440&Woodmont), I honestly thought they would add a sidewalk. The ROW is tight, so that would have meant sacrificing the turn lane, but it was the perfect opportunity. Green Hills is isolated from Hillsboro Village by this stretch which is virtually impassable by pedestrians/cyclists. There were several million dollars spent on this project. When they retained the center turn lane, I was dumbfounded.

Also, I can't fathom why they are considering park-and-ride lots for the BRT. Let's be honest. This BRT line (which I do support), is not going to make travel significantly faster for anyone. Commuters are not going to make the drive in from the 'burbs, only to stop 5 miles short to take a bus. This line will serve those that work/live within walking distance of the line, or those that transfer from within the system. I think anyone that imagines current driving commuters abandoning their cars en mass, needs to look again. That's what heavy rail is for.

When will Nashvillians grow up and learn that it's not always about the closest parking spot? Part of being an adult with a car is figuring out some things yourself. It's not the cities responsibility to make sure there is room to store our private property anywhere we wish to take it.

[Guest]

I think you missed the point with the 2009-2010 Hillsboro Road work. Metro realigned and extended the center turn lane...that was the point of the construction. The addition of sidewalks would have been nice. I will add that we do not need dedicated bike lanes on every road. Bicyclists are also more that capable of planning ahead and using the bike lanes on Belmont that parallel 21st/hillsboro.

http://nashvillecity...-hillsboro-road

I also agree that the EWBRT will not remove cars from the route .... this was my point with P2 yesterday. His 40:1 ratio will not be close to reality; auto traffic will not be reduced. So if we have the situation of less lanes and and the same or more traffic,we can all agree, the congestion on Broadway/West End/Harding will increase...all for $175,000,000...

Edited July 25, 2012 by Guest

[nashvillwill]

You're right. I forgot they expanded the center turn lane. That's even worse IMO.

I agree that we don't need dedicated bike lanes on every street. I'm an avid cyclist, but I don't always like bike lanes. I agree with you, cyclist can also plan ahead and use streets less traveled. But are you saying that you don't see the problem that center turn lanes create? I'm fine with those things in Cool Springs or Murfreesboro, but they have no place within the urban core.

I think a goal of this project should be to make this entire stretch more pedestrian friendly. It can be done without reducing auto traffic lanes. By removing the center turn lane and the on street parking we now have 3 lane widths to redeveloped. Two lanes can be used for BRT in the center, while the 3rd can be split to each side to create a pedestrian streetscape "buffer zone" from traffic. This retains two lanes for auto in each direction, improves pedestrian safety/use ability and leaves a two way BRT ROW. Sure, this would reduce some on street parking, but part of living in a growing city is learning to deal with that growth. Some of us will just have to learn that you can't always park right in front of the door of your destination. People on their feet is good for business.

[Guest]

Up Broadway and West End through Midtown that works but what is the at the I-440 bridge and onward to White Bridge Rd.? There is no on street parking.

Here I get it...

Here I am not so sure how it will work effectively...

[producer2]

"I also agree that the EWBRT will not remove cars from the route .... this was my point with P2 yesterday. His 40:1 ratio will not be close to reality; auto traffic will not be reduced. So if we have the situation of less lanes and and the same or more traffic,we can all agree, the congestion on Broadway/West End/Harding will increase...all for $175,000,000... "

We can't all agree because we don't know the answer. What we do know is how many people live on the corridor (25,000), how many jobs are on the corridor (170,000) and we know that the reduction could be significant. I know I pretty much drive one way or the other on the route almost every day and I could park my car if built. I don't think I am alone.

Edited July 25, 2012 by producer2