The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[nashvylle]

great video. I am for the BRT being on the sides of the street. I imagine it would create more activity on our sidewalks, and the easily accessible buses would encourage more ridership. 

[Neigeville]

great video. I am for the BRT being on the sides of the street. I imagine it would create more activity on our sidewalks, and the easily accessible buses would encourage more ridership. 

Why would a vehicle that stops every half mile encourage activity on the sidewalk? Half the trips on the BRT are going to end with the user having to cross Broadway, and instead of crossing two lanes, they'all have to cross six. That's enough to keep me from using it.

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great video. I am for the BRT being on the sides of the street. I imagine it would create more activity on our sidewalks, and the easily accessible buses would encourage more ridership. 

 

Why would a vehicle that stops every half mile encourage activity on the sidewalk? Half the trips on the BRT are going to end with the user having to cross Broadway, and instead of crossing two lanes, they'all have to cross six. That's enough to keep me from using it.

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Edited February 19, 2013 by Neigeville

[Neigeville]

Uploaded from my nexus pad, which obviously cannot handle this site.

[bwithers1]

That may be true, but the same is true for the existing bus routes (like a taking a bus from the west side toward downtown, and then crossing all those lanes to get to the other side of the street, such as to go to Centennial Park, or to go west from downtown and cross all those lanes to get to Montgomery Bell Academy, as one of our forum members does).  It's just that with the regular bus you would use a crosswalk (if there is one) at the block end rather than creating a new one at the middle of the block.

 

I don't think that the number of lanes crossed specifically is as big of a deal to potential users in Nashville as is convenience in general. 

Why would a vehicle that stops every half mile encourage activity on the sidewalk? Half the trips on the BRT are going to end with the user having to cross Broadway, and instead of crossing two lanes, they'all have to cross six. That's enough to keep me from using it.
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Edited February 20, 2013 by bwithers1

[nashvillwill]

Where have you guys heard that the stations will be mid-block? I don't understand the reasoning behind that. What are the benefits? All i can think of is problems.

[UTgrad09]

Where have you guys heard that the stations will be mid-block? I don't understand the reasoning behind that. What are the benefits? All i can think of is problems.

 

The big benefit would be it wouldn't potentially tie up traffic at intersections. The drawback (if the lanes are in the middle of the road) is that you have a bunch of extra crosswalks in the middle of a block...something drivers will have to get used to, and something pedestrians will have to be extra careful about using.

[nashvillwill]

The big benefit would be it wouldn't potentially tie up traffic at intersections. The drawback (if the lanes are in the middle of the road) is that you have a bunch of extra crosswalks in the middle of a block...something drivers will have to get used to, and something pedestrians will have to be extra careful about using.

So, as usual, we are giving up the most logical solution, just so we don't inconvenience drivers in any way.

I guess it makes sense. We could be using intelligent design where a bus stops at an intersection (what do ya know, the light turned red. It's almost like the signal knew the train was approaching!) and therefore stops parallel traffic allowing riders to approach the platform safely. Meanwhile, cross traffic is allowed to flow unrestricted. Hey, the bus is loaded, pedestrians are safe, light turns green, what do ya know?!

But that's just way to easy, it wouldn't be fair to those who have to make right turns. Instead, lets build crosswalks mid block in a 40mph zone. That won't disturb traffic patterns at all. Besides, fu€k pedestrians. They are just poor people and school children anyways. So lets put them into a real world game of Frogger and weed out the weakest ones. Sure hope you're not handicapped!

Edited February 20, 2013 by nashvillwill

[timmay143]

Agree^^^.  I think we should not be afraid to not cater as much to the autos especially on something like this.  Pedestrians are going to be everywhere on this thing which should be the first priority.  If done right, I believe they can create a system which doesn't "hinder" car traffic as much as it could while also protecting people not in "safe metal cages."

[bigeasy]

Would the BRT even help with traffic congestion? Is there that much traffic going from East Nashville to the West End area? Or would this lead to adding more lines to the suburbs to try and fix the problem?

[MLBrumby]

Such a good question... one I'd wonder one that might have been forgotten amid all the "studies". 

 

Then again, I am one of the early voices questioning the decision to run any RT line up West End, not so much for the additional street traffic (which is a given), but because it brings even more to converge on West End in a narrow linear route.  Seems to me that the ideal way to encourage a wider area of development would be having a loop with a circulator running along parallel streets to West End, in both directions to their respective destinations. No doubt in my mind, you'd see hundreds of millions of dollars in T.o.D. along Church, Charlotte, Broadway, Division, Demonbreun, and out to the East Side.

Edited February 20, 2013 by MLBrumby

[nashvillwill]

The big question I would ask are if the park-and-rides are really necessary. The ridership on current west end lines prove that it is a heavily used lines. Do I think people will abandon their cars in droves? Not a chance. The people currently using mta, will use the BRT. We may see more point-to-point trips for people who would drive otherwise, and students making day trips, but i dont someone in Bellvue driving to the BRT station and then riding it the last mile or two into town. So why are we even considering park lots at the stations?

[timmay143]

I would use a line like that if it ran down Nolensville Rd. to get to DT.  Just because it may not seem like the park n' ride is necessary, isn't that the point?  To encourage people to try "new" things and change their perspective.  Many in this fine town are not, err, ahem, well, as "educated" or open-minded as us enthusiasts. 

[Neigeville]

I would use a line like that if it ran down Nolensville Rd. to get to DT.  Just because it may not seem like the park n' ride is necessary, isn't that the point?  To encourage people to try "new" things and change their perspective.  Many in this fine town are not, err, ahem, well, as "educated" or open-minded as us enthusiasts. 

Exactly. It's a complete mistake to build something to match current usage when we're on the verge of a much denser midtown area.

[producer2]

I would use a line like that if it ran down Nolensville Rd. to get to DT.  Just because it may not seem like the park n' ride is necessary, isn't that the point?  To encourage people to try "new" things and change their perspective.  Many in this fine town are not, err, ahem, well, as "educated" or open-minded as us enthusiasts. 

I have often wondered why the need to have folks who work in an industry actually come up with plans from that industry when there are so many of us that have the answers. Seems like overkill and a huge waste of brain power.

[UTgrad09]

Guys -- I think you are missing my points. Or perhaps I haven't fleshed them out.

 

 

It's not about bowing to the almighty car, though it might look that way. Whether you like it or not, car traffic will affect bus traffic. Yes, the buses do have dedicated lanes...but do you think buses will never get held up due to some kind of traffic? It's easy to say "don't block the intersection" or "yield to bus traffic," but it happens anyways. Take the HOV lanes for instance. They are designed so that only cars with multiple passengers are allowed to use them during rush hour. But take a drive down the interstate during rush hour...easily two thirds, if not more drivers, completely ignore the rule. Why? Because there aren't enough cops around to enforce them

 

The same thing applies to the bus lanes. If traffic is hopelessly backup on West End, I'd be willing to bet that a least a few drivers use it as a turning lane or a passing lane. The more traffic, the more ridiculously stupid things drivers seem to do...and some of them dangerous.

 

So no, my concern is not about making sure we don't hurt the poor feelings of the car commuters. My concern is to make a safe, effective, and efficient public transportation system that encourages ridership. How can adding a bus lane in the first place be catering to the car traffic? You're taking away a lane of traffic. That in itself congests things. And the idealist thought that forcing a traffic jam to encourage PT ridership is equally wrong. If this were New York...maybe even Chicago, Boston, or DC...the fact is, if you don't live on this line, more traffic will make you less likely to patronize businesses on West End. Maybe some day in the future, that will work. Not today. Not in two decades. The transit infrastructure just is not there.

 

In regards to the mid block crosswalks...my concern is that even with flashing signs that tell drivers to yield, some people don't pay close attention. Most drivers aren't used to crosswalks in between intersections. They do exist here, but there are not a lot of them, and from what I can tell, they are not often used. If you put the BRT lanes in the middle, and you have mid block stations, you'll have quite a few mid block crosswalks. And because you'll have a definite reason for people to cross (public transit), you'll have a lot more people in the street. I cringe at the thought of our new expensive BRT system taking a big PR hit because a few careless drivers were talking on their cell phones as they plowed into someone trying to get one of the stations. That is the big advantage of curbside pickup for pedestrians. It might not look as "cool" or "dedicated"...but it also doesn't put them out on an island.

 

My thoughts:

 

Use the side lanes. Keep the mid block stops. Program the ahead traffic lights to turn red as buses approach a mid block stop (and cycle through any turn signals or whatnot). Turn the lights green as the bus is about to leave the station. That way, as the bus gets to the intersection, traffic should be moving, lessening the chances of there being something to impede a bus's progress (cars blocking intersections, late pedestrians crossing the street, cars attempting right turns in front of the bus as it starts to move, etc).

 

I agree, Timmay, it can be done right and not impede traffic. But I don't think it is wrong to plan for all possibilities and make sure it is also very safe and pedestrian friendly.

 

Hope you guys get where I'm coming from now.

[UTgrad09]

The big question I would ask are if the park-and-rides are really necessary. The ridership on current west end lines prove that it is a heavily used lines. Do I think people will abandon their cars in droves? Not a chance. The people currently using mta, will use the BRT. We may see more point-to-point trips for people who would drive otherwise, and students making day trips, but i dont someone in Bellvue driving to the BRT station and then riding it the last mile or two into town. So why are we even considering park lots at the stations?

 

I think you hit on a point there...

 

The attractiveness of long range BRT routes is that compared to regular bus traffic, it takes less time. Even with dedicated lanes, you're unlikely to beat a car from Bellevue to downtown on BRT (except perhaps at the absolute peak of rush hour) because of all the stops. But it will be a lot quicker than taking a regular bus...and with high gas prices, spending a little extra time isn't a big deal. It can be a big deal on a regular bus. I used to ride the Hillsboro bus every day after school. Incredibly slow...and it seemed like we stopped every few blocks. For those long range trips, if you cut out the stops, it's a bit more attractive.

 

With Nashville being a budget minded place, I've wondered if we can 'BRTize' some of our corridor routes by investing in bus friendly traffic signals and put in a system much like they have on Gallatin Road. More people might be encouraged to ride the bus if they knew a 30-35 minute car trip on Nolensville Rd wasn't going to take an hour and 15 minutes on the bus. You don't expect to save time...but you don't want to waste it, either.

[producer2]

the lanes will be monitored with cameras and very large fines will be doled out for those who obstruct. the busses will be outfitted with equipment that will change the lights when they approach to keep their flow moving forward. Not sure what else could slow them down, but cars ain't it...if anything you want to ride alongside so you make the light changes as well. It will reduce the time by upwards of 30%. Not perfect but faster and no parking once you arrive.

[UTgrad09]

the lanes will be monitored with cameras and very large fines will be doled out for those who obstruct. the busses will be outfitted with equipment that will change the lights when they approach to keep their flow moving forward. Not sure what else could slow them down, but cars ain't it...if anything you want to ride alongside so you make the light changes as well. It will reduce the time by upwards of 30%. Not perfect but faster and no parking once you arrive.

 

I'm fine with that. I hope it works like they say it will. I just want to make sure when it is implemented, that is has the best possible opportunity to succeed. 

[timmay143]

Well, I guess what I am thinking is only allow buses to cross while all other traffic is stopped, even parallel lanes.  However, it could be a civil engineers worse nightmare for traffic signaling syncronization.  Although, (not betting on it anytime soon), could be an opportune time to install a nice "modern" and "smart" system, if one even exist... 

[smeagolsfree]

Here is an article from the Tennessean this morning about BRT along Charlotte. Way to go Chris!!! Keep it up. My thoughts after talking to WW are this. They could run the BRT to 31st off of West End and then to Charlotte and up to White Bridge or even Nashville West. I think the section between 31st and the Gulch will take care of itself. One option is to go ahead and offer a rail line from Bellevue along the existing tracks that parallel Charlotte as the city already has access to that..

 

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20130221/NEWS01/302210054/Charlotte-Ave-wants-boost-from-own-bus-rapid-transit-

[Hey_Hey]

Is there any way that it could turn at Murphy Rd and then turn on 46th to Charlotte? From there take it out on Charlotte to Nashville West. That would immediately turn Sylvan Park into a mass transit neighborhood. The neighborhood could truly turn into a car free neighborhood for those that work along the corridor. It would also make the commercial strip on Murphy rd prime real estate development. The only problem of course is trying to fit it n Murphy Road. There would probably have to be land acquisition which would make it more costly and slow.

[nashveit]

Thanks - I was surprised when Duane contacted me about contributing to the article. I agree, I think a hybrid line that touches Charlotte AND West End would be a good compromise, although dropping south that far west will neglect North Nashville and their campuses (an area that's painfully used to neglect). UTGrad09 made some suggestions similar to this in an earlier post, but had it coming down 23rd. That is a wide corridor until it gets past Centennial. I like that it would go by Elliston 23, but there would have to be some major widening past Patterson. 

 

I think the biggest issue here with the route as it's planned is where in the hell are they going to put park and rides at the western terminus? I'm glad that Charlotte is getting the attention it deserves.

[nashveit]

Is there any way that it could turn at Murphy Rd and then turn on 46th to Charlotte? From there take it out on Charlotte to Nashville West. That would immediately turn Sylvan Park into a mass transit neighborhood. The neighborhood could truly turn into a car free neighborhood for those that work along the corridor. It would also make the commercial strip on Murphy rd prime real estate development. The only problem of course is trying to fit it n Murphy Road. There would probably have to be land acquisition which would make it more costly and slow.

 

There is going to be a roundabout installed at the intersection of Murphy/46th, so I am guessing that would make it tough - and while a lot of folks in Sylvan Park are all for mass transit, I doubt they would actually want it running through the heart of the neighborhood.

[UTgrad09]

Thanks - I was surprised when Duane contacted me about contributing to the article. I agree, I think a hybrid line that touches Charlotte AND West End would be a good compromise, although dropping south that far west will neglect North Nashville and their campuses (an area that's painfully used to neglect). UTGrad09 made some suggestions similar to this in an earlier post, but had it coming down 23rd. That is a wide corridor until it gets past Centennial. I like that it would go by Elliston 23, but there would have to be some major widening past Patterson. 

 

I think the biggest issue here with the route as it's planned is where in the hell are they going to put park and rides at the western terminus? I'm glad that Charlotte is getting the attention it deserves.

The width of 23rd past Centennial is certainly an issue with my route alternative. That's not something that is easy to get around...but fortunately 23rd isn't a super busy corridor to begin with -- so perhaps it can be made to work with just 2 single traffic lanes....OR make it a one way street to Patterson. Either way, I think you couldn't get around slightly expanding the road (but with the benefit being new sidewalks).

One reason for picking 23rd over 31st (as I pointed out earlier) is it's a straighter route to West End, and actually a bit shorter...and it goes by more built/building "stuff" (Centennial, Elliston 23). It would also have more of an impact on a neglected area of Charlotte, and run in closer to the North Nashville neighborhoods you speak of (31st/28th would too...but only for a couple of blocks). This would also run by the new Lentz Health Center.

I wonder about the park and rides myself. As I alluded to in previous posts...perhaps they can utilize 'BRT lite' lines stretching further down the corridor and put the park and rides there. I don't really imagine anyone is going to drive 5+ miles into town just to ride the BRT...though a small parking area at the beginning of the line would not be a bad idea to serve people who are a mile or so away (too far to walk distance).

I would also like to see more of a route saturation method used in neighborhoods (including near the BRT lines) where vans could run collector routes and deposit riders at BRT stops (again with the too far to walk distance). Take a bit more of a "micro" approach to neighborhood public transit.

[nashvylle]

dont know how feasible this idea would be, but I bet if the park and ride areas had free, or much cheaper parking, than the lots at drivers' destinations, people driving short and long distances would want to save money on parking and ride the BRT.