Brightline Trains

[dcluley98]

34 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Technically, CA will have one station on the edge of San Bernardino which is on the eastern edge of the LA metro.  Then that line immediately exits the populated area en route to Las Vegas.  Who benefits from that, exactly?  The answer is I-15 Vegas-bound traffic LEAVING and ENTERING the state.  So, who has the HSR, CA or Nevada?  Technically the California desert outside of LA and Las Vegas both have it. 

This would be like Jacksonville having an HSR station at their airport, with the line heading NW to The ATL, and then people marketing it as "Florida's HSR."   How does Florida benefit from that? It would also be like an HSR line connecting Hammond, IN, to Pittsburg.  Does Illinois really benefit from that just because Hammond technically is part of Chicagoland?  No.  Illinois benefits from it when HSR connects Chicago to Springfield and/or St. Louis ala E. St. Louis, which is still in IL.

So, the statement should be as follows:

"I-15, despite the $110B blunders of the High Speed Rail Act elsewhere in California, will benefit slightly from reduced traffic, from San Bernardino's outskirts to Las Vegas, from the first true HSR in the US built and managed by a private Florida company."

CHSR and "Brightline West" are two entirely different projects.

CHSR Phase 1 is through the Central Valley from Madera to about Bakersfield. 

Brightline West is the project that intends to go from Rancho Cucamunga/San Bernardino to Las Vegas. This would be either privately funded or PPP/grant mix.  The $ you are quoting are not for the Brightline West project. 

 

I think you are mixing the two different projects in your mind. 

[jrs2]

12 minutes ago, cubanbread said:

We're still waiting to hear Brightline announce where the Tampa station is going to be.  Over on Skyscraper City we've been able to deduce that the Marion Transit Center in Downtown Tampa is probably the most likely location. 
There's a developer in Ybor who has had discussions with Brightline but we know Brightline wants to own the land so they can develop around it,  so while there's space and Ybor is a great urban location, the Ybor developer, Daryl Shaw, has already started to build out his GasWorx  project so it just seems less likely now. The Marion Transit Center location was where the original 2010 station was going to be.

As for the Rays, there still needs to be a final vote by county commissioners and the city of St. Pete but it's basically a done deal, all of them were in attendance at the announcement many of them spoke. It's a pretty big deal, a lot of people thought they should have moved to Tampa but St. Pete has moved past playing little brother to Tampa. The new park is going to be part of a massive mixed-use development that's going to take up the entire Tropicana field site, it will be equivalent to  The Battery in Atlanta, maybe even a little bigger with the benefit of it being in the urban core and not in the burbs like Atlanta's development. 

People, rightly so, dislike the fact that any public money is going towards a sports stadium, but The Rays are chipping in over 600 million and again the whole development is just such a big deal that I think it offsets the negative.  Right now the land directly around the trop is just a massive parking lot while the rest of St. Pete is booming, so to fill that gap in with a dense, walkable community is a big deal. 

they tried to combine Brightline Tampa Leg with a Sunrail expansion and the Sunshine Corridor proposal involving Universal, and then Disney bailed.  Not sure about the status as of yet.  I was for this, but, as detractors correctly stated, interfering with a private company's already established plan is not necessarily the best thing to do.  They had already begun the sitework by Hunter's Creek believe it or not.  But we'll see.   

The key is that Orlando to Miami must succeed.  If it doesn't, I don't think it will expand to Tampa.  But I think it will be successful.  I predict a slow rollout but it will catch on quickly.  Some find it pricey.  But when talking about tourist money, most all bets are off so it won't stop them from using it.  And there are a lot of European tourists that come here and Miami, so they're used to rail travel.  By comparison, I tried to price a ticket on the Chunnel more than ten years ago and it was double the price of a ticket to Miami (in Euros, mind you).  

It's funny, because the Sunshine Corridor is directly related to the creation of a Special District by Universal for Epic Universe within which the I-Drive/OCCC station would be located.  Universal is paying for that station and donating the land.  Now compare that to Disney.  Disney was only going to allow Brightline to build a station on it's property, at no cost to Disney.  Disney is part of the former RCID Special District.  Now, compare the function of the two special districts with regard to this issue.  I've posted before about Universal's former land use attorney reporting on this and pointing out  the history of RCID's unwillingness to fulfill it's functions as a special district in conjunction to it's relationship to its neighbors (compared to what Universal is planning).  And that, pretty much puts in perspective all the drama in Tallahassee last year with RCID's restructuring and the real reasons why it was done (as opposed to political slants).  I stated that Universal former land use attorney had urged Universal for years to create a special district.  So, you put two and two together and realize that when a multi-billion dollar company in Comcast is spending $billions in Orlando and paying the requisite taxes, that they won't go off silently into the night when the knock against Disney has been the opposite for all these decades.  That's a "1 + 1 = 2" analysis, especially knowing the history between Disney and Universal with regards to how they have both interfered with competing projects over the decades (Disney ala casinos and the Seminoles' proposed Kissimmee theme park; Universal with the proposed theme park on I-Drive near the outlets, and Skyplex).  I know there has been more and there have been rumors for decades of Disney paying off politicians to get their way on the casino issue.

I've posted two such videos from Universal's former land use attorney that people here just ignore and don't want to acknowledge.  Maybe I'll post them again...

But the point is that this is where we are at and we're in somewhat of a holding pattern on the route this leg to Tampa will take.

26 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

CHSR and "Brightline West" are two entirely different projects.

CHSR Phase 1 is through the Central Valley from Madera to about Bakersfield. 

Brightline West is the project that intends to go from Rancho Cucamunga/San Bernardino to Las Vegas. This would be either privately funded or PPP/grant mix.  The $ you are quoting are not for the Brightline West project. 

 

I think you are mixing the two different projects in your mind. 

did you respond to the right post?

I know exactly what the two projects are and who is developing them.  You're thinking of the other person.

[shardoon]

47 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

https://www.hsrail.org/blog/brightline-west-receives-bipartisan-support-for-federal-funding-request/

are you talking about this?

that's a far cry from "bleeding."

Meanwhile, the Miami to Palm Beach leg is and has been profitable.  I have also spoken to professionals I know in Miami and they tell me that train is packed with attorneys and the like going back and forth between counties for hearings, depositions, trials, etc., let alone other professionals.

https://www.thenextmiami.com/demand-for-brightline-so-high-that-it-just-earned-a-south-segment-profit-never-really-intended/

I don't own stock in Brightline; their success or California's failures.  I don't waste time with that fanboyism; I just deal in facts as best as we can tell.  My number one concern is that Brightline is successful to Orlando because it will raise Orlando's clout in the world marketplace in its connection with Miami.  I think Orlando benefits more than Miami does.

The key for Orlando is to connect Sunrail to MCO.  Then, you will have two Florida metros, both with CRT, connected by higher speed 125mph intercity rail.  California, by comparison, will never have even this.  They should have this, but likely never will.

Try not to reason with facts and statistics with that person.  All you may get out of it is a weird sexual predatory response.  Not the most stable character on this board. 

19 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

they tried to combine Brightline Tampa Leg with a Sunrail expansion and the Sunshine Corridor proposal involving Universal, and then Disney bailed.  Not sure about the status as of yet.  I was for this, but, as detractors correctly stated, interfering with a private company's already established plan is not necessarily the best thing to do.  They had already begun the sitework by Hunter's Creek believe it or not.  But we'll see.   

The key is that Orlando to Miami must succeed.  If it doesn't, I don't think it will expand to Tampa.  But I think it will be successful.  I predict a slow rollout but it will catch on quickly.  Some find it pricey.  But when talking about tourist money, most all bets are off so it won't stop them from using it.  And there are a lot of European tourists that come here and Miami, so they're used to rail travel.  By comparison, I tried to price a ticket on the Chunnel more than ten years ago and it was double the price of a ticket to Miami (in Euros, mind you).  

It's funny, because the Sunshine Corridor is directly related to the creation of a Special District by Universal for Epic Universe within which the I-Drive/OCCC station would be located.  Universal is paying for that station and donating the land.  Now compare that to Disney.  Disney was only going to allow Brightline to build a station on it's property, at no cost to Disney.  Disney is part of the former RCID Special District.  Now, compare the function of the two special districts with regard to this issue.  I've posted before about Universal's former land use attorney reporting on this and pointing out  the history of RCID's unwillingness to fulfill it's functions as a special district in conjunction to it's relationship to its neighbors (compared to what Universal is planning).  And that, pretty much puts in perspective all the drama in Tallahassee last year with RCID's restructuring and the real reasons why it was done (as opposed to political slants).  I stated that Universal former land use attorney had urged Universal for years to create a special district.  So, you put two and two together and realize that when a multi-billion dollar company in Comcast is spending $billions in Orlando and paying the requisite taxes, that they won't go off silently into the night when the knock against Disney has been the opposite for all these decades.  That's a "1 + 1 = 2" analysis, especially knowing the history between Disney and Universal with regards to how they have both interfered with competing projects over the decades (Disney ala casinos and the Seminoles' proposed Kissimmee theme park; Universal with the proposed theme park on I-Drive near the outlets, and Skyplex).  I know there has been more and there have been rumors for decades of Disney paying off politicians to get their way on the casino issue.

I've posted two such videos from Universal's former land use attorney that people here just ignore and don't want to acknowledge.  Maybe I'll post them again...

But the point is that this is where we are at and we're in somewhat of a holding pattern on the route this leg to Tampa will take.

did you respond to the right post?

I know exactly what the two projects are and who is developing them.  You're thinking of the other person.

Sadly, I just do not see how a leg to Tampa can be profitable without a true Disney stop at Disney springs to subsidize the rest of the run to Tampa.  I just do not think there will be enough passengers going to the I-Drive/Epic stop that would be enough of a umbrella for the venture. Now if the bagged a Disney Springs station, Disney having exclusive agreements with Brightline would be more than enough to keep a Tampa leg afloat. 

[jrs2]

12 minutes ago, shardoon said:

Try not to reason with facts and statistics with that person.  All you may get out of it is a weird sexual predatory response.  Not the most stable character on this board. 

oh...I forgot about that... you're right. 

Now I feel like...well...that person.

thanks for the heads up and refresher. that person reminded me of this poster on SkyscraperCity from years ago blurting out obscenities and creating this feud between Orlando and other parts of the state.  A real head shaker. 

Anyway.... you da man.

[cubanbread]

Getting through Orlando is the trickiest part. I don't think a station at Disney Springs specifically is necessary for the extension to Tampa to be successful. Brightline will offer the first/last-mile connection to Disney. The theme parks are only one part of the line; you'll still have people from Tampa, like myself, who will be using Brightline to go to MCO for direct flights to destinations that TPA doesn't fly direct to. You'll also have everyone from Tampa who will be going to SFLA, which, if you've ever looked at weekend Amtrak capacity from TPA to MIA, is consistently at 90% full or sold out.

A lot needs to happen, and a lot can happen both negatively and positively. But who would have guessed back in the early 2000s or shortly after the HSR line between Tampa and Orlando was canceled in 2010 that we'd have a line running from Miami to Orlando? Or that SunRail would be expanding to DeLand? SunRail is imperfect, but the line is running, it's expanding, and it's drawing development. Polk County wants SunRail to reach them; Brevard is likely going to get a Brightline station. These are conservative counties that in the past would have shunned the idea of passenger rail reaching their borders.

Even up in NE Florida, a serious proposal for a commuter line from Jacksonville to St. Augustine has been announced. It would run on the FEC line, which I think makes a Brightline expansion to Jacksonville far more likely.

Every single Florida city is rapidly densifying. Tampa went from having fewer than 3,000 people living downtown in 2007 to a current downtown population of over 15,000, and that's without Water Street, GasWorx, Ybor Harbor, and the various other proposed projects downtown being fully built out. Downtown Tampa could realistically have a population of 45,000 or more in the next 15 years. That's just Tampa; I know it's happening in Orlando, Jacksonville, FTL, West Palm, and Miami too.

Connecting Orlando to Tampa's biggest obstacle is funding, from what I can tell, but there are multiple organizations working on this. Brightline has already worked with the state to get the rights to run down the median of I-4. We're in better shape than we ever have been, is basically what I'm saying. And Brightline is looking for government help; personally, I don't care how the line gets funded, I just want it to happen.

[shardoon]

4 minutes ago, cubanbread said:

Getting through Orlando is the trickiest part. I don't think a station at Disney Springs specifically is necessary for the extension to Tampa to be successful. Brightline will offer the first/last-mile connection to Disney. The theme parks are only one part of the line; you'll still have people from Tampa, like myself, who will be using Brightline to go to MCO for direct flights to destinations that TPA doesn't fly direct to. You'll also have everyone from Tampa who will be going to SFLA, which, if you've ever looked at weekend Amtrak capacity from TPA to MIA, is consistently at 90% full or sold out.

A lot needs to happen, and a lot can happen both negatively and positively. But who would have guessed back in the early 2000s or shortly after the HSR line between Tampa and Orlando was canceled in 2010 that we'd have a line running from Miami to Orlando? Or that SunRail would be expanding to DeLand? SunRail is imperfect, but the line is running, it's expanding, and it's drawing development. Polk County wants SunRail to reach them; Brevard is likely going to get a Brightline station. These are conservative counties that in the past would have shunned the idea of passenger rail reaching their borders.

Even up in NE Florida, a serious proposal for a commuter line from Jacksonville to St. Augustine has been announced. It would run on the FEC line, which I think makes a Brightline expansion to Jacksonville far more likely.

Every single Florida city is rapidly densifying. Tampa went from having fewer than 3,000 people living downtown in 2007 to a current downtown population of over 15,000, and that's without Water Street, GasWorx, Ybor Harbor, and the various other proposed projects downtown being fully built out. Downtown Tampa could realistically have a population of 45,000 or more in the next 15 years. That's just Tampa; I know it's happening in Orlando, Jacksonville, FTL, West Palm, and Miami too.

Connecting Orlando to Tampa's biggest obstacle is funding, from what I can tell, but there are multiple organizations working on this. Brightline has already worked with the state to get the rights to run down the median of I-4. We're in better shape than we ever have been, is basically what I'm saying. And Brightline is looking for government help; personally, I don't care how the line gets funded, I just want it to happen.

You know, I never thought about the angle that OIA is such a bigger airport than Tampa regarding direct flights. This in fact may take a real bite out of the Tampa airport use if this makes using  OIA as a primary airport easier for Tampa residents. A simple train ride is a lot easier to deal with than a 3 hour layover in Atlanta etc. 

[cubanbread]

I took a trip to Ireland last year out of MCO, the round trip ticket was under $460.  If I would have flown out of Tampa it would have been closer to $700 and I would have had to layover in Atlanta or Dallas.
I imagine one-way tickets from Tampa to Orlando wouldn't exceed $50 so an extra $100 to the overall ticket price would still be cheaper, plus no layover or worrying about parking. I'd be flying out of MCO all the time. 

That being said, TPA is a fantastic airport, Its consistently ranked as one of the best big airports in the country, it's not going to stop growing or adding new international flights so my guess is that it would be more of a symbiotic relationship. 
For example, the existence of TPA hasn't stopped the growth of PIE in Pinellas County which is literally right on the other side of Old Tampa Bay, and the existence of TPA and PIE hasn't stopped the growth of SRQ in Sarasota which is less than an hour south of TPA and PIE.  It would just be another option.
 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, cubanbread said:

I took a trip to Ireland last year out of MCO, the round trip ticket was under $460.  If I would have flown out of Tampa it would have been closer to $700 and I would have had to layover in Atlanta or Dallas.
I imagine one-way tickets from Tampa to Orlando wouldn't exceed $50 so an extra $100 to the overall ticket price would still be cheaper, plus no layover or worrying about parking. I'd be flying out of MCO all the time. 

That being said, TPA is a fantastic airport, Its consistently ranked as one of the best big airports in the country, it's not going to stop growing or adding new international flights so my guess is that it would be more of a symbiotic relationship. 
For example, the existence of TPA hasn't stopped the growth of PIE in Pinellas County which is literally right on the other side of Old Tampa Bay, and the existence of TPA and PIE hasn't stopped the growth of SRQ in Sarasota which is less than an hour south of TPA and PIE.  It would just be another option.
 

I think if the Tampa leg to Brightline happens, a station at (or also at) TPA at the car rental facility near International Plaza would be pretty awesome.  There are direct flights from TPA that I've been told about that MCO doesn't have...

But, dang...getting to the coast I think is key.  I was near Tarpon and cut through the city on a SE road and it finally (finally) got me to I-275 just north of TPA and it felt like forever and a day.  BL to the coast (if feasible) would be key.  The easement on I-275 is very, very wide once they did that redo back in the early 2000's; you put another highway in there...

I did not know about a CRT in Jax along an FEC track.  I assumed CSX would be it, but, it all depends on the route I guess.  BTW, now that FEC is "inland" ala Orlando, I wonder whether they try to expand into freight in the future...

[WAJAS]

On 9/18/2023 at 8:53 AM, codypet said:

I noticed this in google Earth and it made me sad to see this basically confirmed. 

"By 2016, much of the trackage along the East Leg as well as in the KSC Industrial Area had been pulled up and was presumably scrapped, while the majority of trackage along the West Leg was left in place and simply taken out of service."

On the bright side, the west leg is back in service now. It's used for transporting boosters and other large parts for the new rockets, like SLS.

[dcluley98]

Sorry JRS, I misinterpretted your quote of the other person, thinking that you meant BL West was part of the cost over-runs of the CHSR project. 

It is debatable whether CHSR will be the first "true" HSR. Until they actually complete the route and run an actual service, I wouldn't claim that. 

Also, technically, the Acela will likely be the first "True" HSR in the United States. Amtrak is currently working on upgrading the corridor and has a plan for new trainsets that will achieve 250kph+

https://www.amtrak.com/next-generation-high-speed-trains#:~:text=The new Acela will operate,on the NEC in 2024.

[codypet]

4 hours ago, WAJAS said:

On the bright side, the west leg is back in service now. It's used for transporting boosters and other large parts for the new rockets, like SLS.

My understanding was not all of the west leg was put back in service.  Also NASA's locomotives did not return.

[FLClarkKent]

I’ll be curious to see the ridership numbers this time next year, after the novelty of Brightline wears off. I have doubts about the business model (but will be happy to be proven wrong). 

[orlandocity87]

3 hours ago, FLClarkKent said:

I’ll be curious to see the ridership numbers this time next year, after the novelty of Brightline wears off. I have doubts about the business model (but will be happy to be proven wrong). 

This article is pretty optimistic: https://www.thenextmiami.com/brightline-revenue-ridership-continues-surging-as-new-orlando-station-opens/ 

[Ivanhoe]

17 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Sorry JRS, I misinterpretted your quote of the other person, thinking that you meant BL West was part of the cost over-runs of the CHSR project. 

It is debatable whether CHSR will be the first "true" HSR. Until they actually complete the route and run an actual service, I wouldn't claim that. 

Also, technically, the Acela will likely be the first "True" HSR in the United States. Amtrak is currently working on upgrading the corridor and has a plan for new trainsets that will achieve 250kph+

https://www.amtrak.com/next-generation-high-speed-trains#:~:text=The new Acela will operate,on the NEC in 2024.

I would agree with this.

Brightline is not “true” high speed rail, impressive nonetheless in what it’s been able to accomplish thus far.

22 hours ago, shardoon said:

Try not to reason with facts and statistics with that person.  All you may get out of it is a weird sexual predatory response.  Not the most stable character on this board. 

 

What on earth are you blabbering on about? 
Calling someone a sexual predator is not to be taken lightly. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Ivanhoe

[cubanbread]

Congrats Orlando friends, I just watched some of the footage of the first train rolling into Orlando. This is massive not only for Orlando but the whole Florida Peninsula Megaregion. 
 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, cubanbread said:

Congrats Orlando friends, I just watched some of the footage of the first train rolling into Orlando. This is massive not only for Orlando but the whole Florida Peninsula Megaregion. 
 

really? I've been so busy today I totally forgot to check on that. I'll check for that guy Roaming Railfan and see if he's covering actual service versus prep of BL

[jrs2]

 

2 hours ago, cubanbread said:

Congrats Orlando friends, I just watched some of the footage of the first train rolling into Orlando. This is massive not only for Orlando but the whole Florida Peninsula Megaregion. 
 

This is the most recent from a couple hours ago; the first train arriving from Miami:

 

[dcluley98]

 

[codypet]

Damn they just straight up an say it was suicide by train.  I would have thought it would be a couple of days before they confirmed that.

[shardoon]

3 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

I would agree with this.

Brightline is not “true” high speed rail, impressive nonetheless in what it’s been able to accomplish thus far.

What on earth are you blabbering on about? 
Calling someone a sexual predator is not to be taken lightly. 

I'm only an observer of your behavior. 

[Ivanhoe]

55 minutes ago, shardoon said:

I'm only an observer of your behavior. 

It appears someone has been spending a bit too much time at Four Seasons Total Landscaping.  

[jrs2]

 

[aent]

In that last video, it appears Visit Orlando bought a wrap for one of the trains.... visible at 5:50

[dcluley98]

It appears to be similar to the mural downtown that a few of us disliked as well. 

 

Hmmmm. 

[jrs2]

On 9/22/2023 at 3:19 PM, codypet said:

Damn they just straight up an say it was suicide by train.  I would have thought it would be a couple of days before they confirmed that.

I did a test with my mom... I said "if I told you Brightline hit a pedestrian, where do you assume (location-wise) the train hit them?"  She said "at a crosswalk." 

According to that story and where they filmed the news report, it was around weeds between two industrial office parks, away from any intersections.  So the person accessed the track and went to a relatively secluded area and got hit by the train.

"pedestrian."  technically, it's true, but their headline makes it sound like the Brightline train is Jaws or Cujo, looking for pedestrians to kill.  And on that note, also a runaway train jumping rails hitting cars and SUV's in a train accident apocalypse ala 'Christine" and that '70's movie "Duel," a train acting like a demon possessed sports car or semi with a bloodlust.  

Are we safe in DTO from Brightline?  technically, the tracks connect down in Taft...