cubanbread

Not only is Jacksonville is the epicenter of Florida's Black community, its where the Black national anthem was written, and has the largest concentration of Gullah Geechee people in the country. Seems strange it wouldn't be at the top of the list. Wherever it ends up, I hope they build a giant statue of John Horse who's probably the most badass Floridian to have ever existed, I'm surprised they haven't made a movie about him yet.

Desantis just signed in a new transportation package that while having the typical red meat for the anti-"woke" dorks, did have one decent little nugget: "The bill also will direct the Florida Rail Enterprise to include among its duties the acquisition of “future rail corridors and rights-of-way in coordination with FDOT’s planning of the state highway system.” A Senate version of the bill initially sought a 44-foot-wide rail corridor in the Interstate 4 right-of-way to extend the private Brightline passenger rail service from Orlando to Tampa." https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2024/04/03/desantis-oks-transportation-package.html

I don't know, I think the growing hatred for being in traffic, plus the success of the SFLA portion, indicates that there will be some demand from locals. The 'who's going to ride it' crowd has been taking a lot of Ls since Brightline started service (not saying you're one of those people). Driving sucks more today than it ever has, and it's just getting worse. Now there are not only more cars but also bigger vehicles, and people are driving more aggressively. Also, car ownership is plummeting with younger people. I don't think a short bus transfer is really going to affect anyone, and waiting at the Brightline station isn't a bad thing at all – it's super comfortable and has amenities. They're not likely to take up the bulk of travelers, but it will likely be a larger percent than you think. Also, the MCO station is just the start. When the Sunshine Corridor is completed, people will be able to travel from any SunRail stop, so that initial drive time to a station will be cut down significantly. As for the location of the station, I always hoped it would end up near Cocoa Village, but that's me coming at this from an urbanist POV. The truth is, as great as Cocoa Village is, KSC and Port Canaveral are much bigger destinations. Not only that, but Cocoa Village is only 3.5 miles away from this location, so it's not a very big deal. They are anticipating development around the station. This article mentions a city council member from Cocoa wanting to turn the area around the station into an economic zone that would help pay for the station via taxes collected on new developments. https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2024/03/12/brightline-gives-green-light-to-cocoa-stop-for-its-rail-service/72940551007/

I could 100% see Brightline and Amtrak running trains on the same tracks in the future. The east coast of Florida is one of the most dense corridors in the country. Rough estimate, about 10 million people live along the FEC line, mostly weighted to the south of course, about 7 million from Dade to St. Lucie county and about 3 million from Brevard to Duval. It makes sense.

I don't know where to post this info but Amtrak is looking to restore Florida to Chicago service. It would also stop in Atlanta, Nashville, and Indianapolis. There's a bit of an uproar in Tampa because it would bypass Union Station and instead head straight to Miami from Orlando. https://www.wusf.org/transportation/2024-03-04/amtrak-bypasses-tampa-chicago-to-florida-service Considering they're estimating it will take 33hours from Chicago to Miami adding another couple of hours to that trip doesn't seem like that big of a deal so it doesn't make a lot of sense not to include Tampa. Plus, couldn't this be a way for them to increase daily service between Tampa and Orlando or Tampa and Miami?

Fort Pierce was a better pick in my opinion but from what I've read, the city of Stuart and the county are covering 45 million of the 60 million dollar price tag of the station and they leased out the property to Brightline for 80$ ... or 1$ a year for 80 years. My guess is that they determined that the ridership potential between the 2 cities wasn't a significant enough difference and went with the option to go with the place that is covering 75% of the cost of the station. This is going to be interesting to watch how everything plays out. I don't know a lot about Stuart but I know Brightline wants to develop around their stations or attract development around their stations. Stuart doesn't strike me as the type of place that's going to be very open to newer, denser, developments. But who knows, either way, exciting times for Stuart, this is going to change that little city for the better.

The latest info on Brightline to Tampa came out a couple of months ago and it was that they had created an "affiliate" company called "Brightline Tampa" They then sold some of the assets to this new affiliate that they would then buy back. It is complicated but long story short, it's a common practice businesses use to get through permitting processes faster https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2024/01/23/brightline-central-florida-expansion-airport.html

Brightline had its best month yet this January, ridership to Orlando also made up the slight majority of the total trips for the first time as well. That specifically is very encouraging to me because while I'm bullish on Brightline, I did think that the ridership just in the SFLA portion would be higher than the trips to Orlando at least in the short-term so it's very cool to see I was wrong after just a few months of service to Orlando. https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2024/02/23/brightline-central-florida-ridership-miami.html "The Miami-based company reported 122,703 total passengers during the first month of 2024, the most recent data available, on the long-distance service to and from Orlando International Airport, up slightly from the prior month's total of 115,683. The January long-distance ridership surpassed short-distance ridership in South Florida of 113,560 for the month, making up more than 50% of its ridership for the first time."

If you've got a problem with loud hip-hop, I don't think Florida is the place for you. We're the state that invented bass music and has had one of the strongest rap and hip-hop scenes pretty much since the genre hit the mainstream in the 80s. That's like moving to Nashville and complaining about country music. Outsider's perspective on this project, I think it's great and I believe if organizations like FDOT are going to force highways through our cities the least they can do is utilize all of the available space. I'm jealous that Tampa and St. Pete haven't used their overpasses in the same way.

There doesn't seem to be a stand out perfect spot in Tampa at the moment. Tampa Union just seems to be the leading contender, there's still plenty of room to develop around it, it's only a couple of blocks from the streetcar, not ideal but fairly close. Not to mention, the MetroRapid stops there and it would be a direct connection to USF and South Tampa should Hillsborough get the rights to use the CSX tracks which has been looking for funding for many years. But again, I'm confident we'll find out this year. Best case scenario , the FED awards Brightline with funding to Tampa and they duel announce the station location and funding. Either way, for those who've been following there continues to be positive movement towards Tampa, so here hoping we get confirmation this year that it's really happening.

Once they exit I-4 in Ybor City they'll have no option but to elevate. The most likely route, as far as I can see, is exiting at 15th street then follow the Nuccio Parkway alignment to Tampa Union Station. I'm confident they'll announce where the station will be sometime this year, in a way they kind of have to. That whole section of Ybor city is slated for development, a project called GasWorx that's going to bridge Ybor, Channelside, and downtown has already started construction on the first phase and if they want to prevent any potential NIMBYisms from the new condo owners along Nuccio the best way to do that is to have the station location locked down before people start moving in.

Anything new that Brightline builds will need to be grade separate that's state law. Another small update on the line to Tampa https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2024/01/25/brightline-sells-rights-to-affiliate.html, Summary: Brightline has made a strategic move by selling its planned Orlando to Tampa rail line to its affiliate, "Brightline Tampa", a step that brings Florida closer to a connected future. The sale, completed on January 2, aligns with the company's vision to link major economic regions in Florida, offering a practical and efficient travel solution for a significant portion of the state's population. With strong ridership figures and plans to refinance its debt, Brightline is laying the groundwork for sustainable growth and enhanced connectivity in the region, promising an improved travel experience for millions of Floridians.

Valid points but I don't think Brightline is as opposed to working with developers as it may seem. They've got a long standing relationship with Daryl Shaw in Tampa who owns most of the available land in Ybor City where the station is supposed to be. As for Stuart and its proximity to West Palm, I think that's a strike against them in the short term but a bonus for them long term. Short term, I think Brightline would rather a new station be further from WPB you might cannibalize riders otherwise, that being said, long term, if Brightline finds that commuter rail is working well for them I still see the potential for a stop in Stuart.

The deadline to submit a station stop proposal to Brightline for Fort Pierce or Martin County has passed and I've heard of three potential locations. The city of Stuart has proposed land just outside of the downtown core roughly in this are 416 SE Flagler Ave, Stuart, FL 34994. This location has some development opportunities and is relatively walkable, only 2 minutes walking from their main downtown strip, though it doesn't feel particularly connected to their downtown so it would need improvements in that regard. Fort Pierce has submitted two proposals one by the city and the other by the company building the mixed-use King's Landing projects in Downtown Fort Pierce: (271 S 2nd St -ish) The "Courthouse" location, isn't on Downtown Fort Pierce's main strip but it's very very close, and the area that it is in feels very connected to the rest of Downtown Fort Pierce, very walkable and there looks to be a decent amount of easily developable land nearby. This would pull the urban core of FTP south. (322 N 2nd St - ish) The King's landing location is actually very similar to what it offers. It's very close to the downtown core and would help to extend it north, this is going to happen with or without Brightline as King's Landing is going to happen with or without Brightline Here's a rendering of King's Landing. Looks like a pretty good project for a smaller city. Fort Pierce seems to be on the same trajectory as Sarasota. I don't think Stuart is going to win out of these 3 options, but maybe, if Brightline determines smaller stations are more helpful overall and they run say 6 trains a day rather than 16 it could potentially get a station in the distant future. Not holding my breath. The other locations in Fort Pierce are honestly a toss-up. I think the winner will be determined by whether or not King's Landing or the City of Fort Pierce would be willing to help fund the station. I think another factor could be how much of the land on the west side of the tracks is developable but even then, these locations are so close to each other that any development would effectively work as TOD for Brightline. It could simply be a matter of which land is cheaper. I give Stuart about a 10% shot of winning, and that's being generous, the only reason I'm going that high is that the lawsuit that was brought against Brightline that required them to build a station in this region was brought on by Martin County and I could see Brightline potentially (though highly unlikely) deciding to simply put the station here because its cheaper and gets Martin county off their backs. I'm giving the courthouse location in Downtown Fort Pierce about a 43% chance of getting the station and the King's Landing location 47% chance. They offer about the same in terms of potential but there's a creek near this station location that intrigues me. I feel like there's a trend emerging in Florida of making smaller waterways bigger focal points, you can see this in St. Pete's reimagining of Booker Creek, The emerald trail in Jacksonville, and of course our riverwalks. It's a smaller thing to point towards as to why I choose this location to win but I think since Brightline is using reality as a way to be financially successful being able to acquire land around what could potentially be a riverwalk type of area or even something that could potentially be Dutch in style, might be just enough to give King's landing the edge. I also think King's Landing might be more willing to help pitch in for the station if they feel it will help them sell their condos, it certainly makes the value of those condos go up. From what I hear we should know early in 2024 which location has been picked and that station will be up and running by 2029.

I read in an old TBBJ article that they could max 150mph to Tampa but then I heard diesel trains couldn't make that speed , and the HSR purists said that couldn't happen so I'm not sure what to believe. Doesn't matter all that much to me. I just got back from Spain as well and was on Renfe often traveling to Avila and Palencia (not Valencia) Spain is know to have one of the best HSR systems and even the lines I rode weren't hitting 100mph for the majority of the time, they also served smaller stations like the cities I went to and both were popular stops. It all just sort of made me feel more comfortable with the game plan Brightline is taking thus far. Sure it would be great if it hit the fastest speeds it could the whole line, and sure dropping smaller stations would mean the total travel time between Miami and Orlando would be shorter but Boca and Aventura have been very popular and I have no reason to believe a St. Lucie or Lakeland stop wouldn't also be very popular. My takeaway with Brightline to this point is, so far so good, and its only going to get better once they get closer to the parks and reach all the way to Tampa. I also can't wait to see what TOD is going to pop up in the coming years around these stations. I'm particularly curious about the area around West Palm's station there's a lot of room to grow there and I think it will be the first city on the line to really start to see grassroots TOD. I think what we're learning with Brightline is how open people can be to premium transit, including paying a significant amount more, as long as it is clean, safe, and reliable. Brightline West is going to be very popular as well, but I don't think it's going to have the impact on the individual stops it has out there that it will in Florida.

New (unconfirmed but from a respectable source on SSC) rumor has popped up that Brightline may be choosing the Westshore business district as its Tampa terminus. Even before this rumor, plans were already in place to build a multi-modal transit center at this location. Westshore is mostly made up of midrise offices and hotels, and is wedged between two malls, International & Westshore Plaza. It's also less than 2 miles from TPA's Skyconnect, which has plans to connect to the Westshore Multimodal Center. This location is about 7 miles from the previously proposed HSR Tampa Terminus in Downtown Tampa at the Marion Transit Center. I find it highly unlikely that Brightline would simply bypass Downtown Tampa, so I still expect them to have a station there, especially since it will be a crossover point with the Streetcar extension and a future BRT line connecting to USF/Uptown. My gut is telling me that if true, this will be a joint venture with Brightline, Tampa, and the state. Tampa might also run a local line on these tracks to serve stops like Midtown, Old West Tampa, Downtown, West River, and NOHO. Possibly even VM Ybor, East Tampa, and the Hardrock casino/Fairgrounds. As I've mentioned in a previous post, the current Howard Franklin expansion is being built with space for Light rail. So, getting Brightline on board for a Westshore stop could make that long-awaited rail connection between Tampa and St. Pete more probable. Brightline's announcement is supposed to come around the second quarter of 2024, so we have some time to wait and see if this is true. Personally, I'm happy with this. I know some peeps take issue with Brightline Florida not being true HSR... but it still competes with cars and flying. Moreover, the best side effect of Brightline coming to fruition in recent years is how it's helping to expand other forms of rail service in the cities it touches. From the coastal link in SFLA, to the Sunshine corridor, the potential for a shared track in Tampa, and even the proposed commuter line from Jacksonville to St. Augustine — I can't wait to see what happens There are plans to expand/ redevelop Westshore Plaza that have been around since 2018

Brightline opens search for Treasure Coast station https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2023/10/26/brightline-treasure-coast-new-station.html New Station Proposal: Brightline has issued a request for proposals for a new station location in the Treasure Coast, targeting landowners in St. Lucie or Martin counties. Property Requirements: Suitable properties for the proposed station need to be larger than 2 acres and should be capable of accommodating at least 200 parking spaces. Timeline and Meetings: Brightline has planned private meetings in St. Lucie County on Nov. 28 and in Martin County on Nov. 29. Proposal submissions are due by Dec. 22, with negotiations planned for Q1 2024. The design, environmental, and permitting phase is expected to span until Q2 2025. Construction will continue through 2027, with the station operational by Q1 2028. CEO Statement: Brightline CEO, Michael Reininger, emphasized the importance and potential of the expansion, highlighting that it will make Brightline accessible to almost half of Florida's residents. Stuart: I think downtown locations are the best especially in Stuart where they need to slow down for the bridge anyway. There's some developable land on the west side of the tracks but I think they might be able to work something out with the city Stuart and place it near their city hall. There also doesn't seem to be a lot of viable areas not near downtown in my opinion as they are too close to residential neighborhoods, aside from a portion a little further south down A1A which is more industrial but it does seem as though they're trying to pedestrianize it a bit. Fort Pierce: Downtown Fort Pierce is perfectly set up for Brightline. The downtown seems a bit more lively than Stuart and they also have a large chunk of empty land right on the other side of the tracks of the main core. Stuart, Martin County City Population: 18,253 City density: 2,472 PSM County Population: 162,006 Fort Pierce, St. Lucie County City Population: 48,405 City density: 1,988 PSM County Population: 358,704 To me, there really seem to be only a few spots that make sense, though I'm sure there's probably something I'm overlooking. I did toy with the idea of finding a midpoint between Stuart and Fort Pierce, but everything there seems to be residential beach towns with no real development space. Even if there was a spot, I imagine getting past the NIMBYs would be a whole other challenge. Upon taking a closer look, that southern choice near Stuart doesn't seem all that great, and not so much from a city vibe perspective, but more because of how far it is from Fort Pierce. Sure, it could maybe draw in riders from Jupiter, but they've already got their own nearby station in West Palm. Fort Pierce, on the other hand, has the potential to pull in riders from Martin and Indian River counties. While I believe either city could justify a stop, we can't forget that having a station in the Treasure Coast is non-negotiable due to a previous settlement with the region. I could see Brightline maybe going for whatever's cheapest or easiest just to check that box. But, to their credit, they haven't given any signs of taking shortcuts since they started. All in all, Downtown Fort Pierce is looking like the top pick for me. There's open land downtown that's just waiting for a cool station, and there's room to expand. Plus, St. Lucie County's population is nearly twice that of Martin, and being close to both Stuart and Vero, it's in a good spot to pull in riders from those places too.

I honestly don't know.

Continuing to utilize the existing tracks is the game plan they should continue to stick with for now. Even over on my side of the state there are barley used tracks that run from South Tampa all the way to Brooksville and they cut through Downtown Tampa, Ybor City, USF area. There's also an E/W line that reaches from about the Busch Gardens area all the way to Pinellas cutting through places like Oldsmar, Safety Harbour, Clearwater, all the way down to St. Pete. There's even a spur off that line that reaches TPA. There's a track that runs from Downtown Tampa to Downtown Bradenton and Sarasota as well but I'm not sure how viable that track is. I've never heard it mentioned as a potential commuter line like the other tracks that run through Tampa but that could be because connecting to SWTB via rail just wasn't on the radar. Though, it's getting increasingly more difficult to ignore Bradenton and Sarasota as time goes on. What program did you use to create this?

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/10/19/jta-looking-beyond-proposed-route-on-light-rail.html A little article dropped today about Jacksonville's continued plans to connect to St. Johns and eventually Brightline. Not a ton of info but just more signs that things are pointing in the right direction.

The whole middle part of the state is flush with smaller towns and cities with great bones. Lake county and Polk Counties specifically. Probably because the interstate system didn't tear through that area like it did in other parts of Florida. Literally go on Google Earth and choose any city along or near the Lake Whales ridge and you'll find they all have a nice little downtown core. Some need more TLC than others but the bones are there.

I remember chatting with someone about FTL's interest in building tunnels and how that could pave the way for subways in Florida. The same old argument always comes up, echoed in this article too - "what about flooding?" There’s this notion that we can't have tunnels in Florida because of our low elevation. But let’s not forget, cities like Fort Lauderdale and Miami already have tunnels. Mobile, Alabama has a tunnel under a river, and the Netherlands, despite its low elevation much like Florida, has an extensive subway system. If you want to challenge the idea of tunnels in Florida, cost is a fair point. But to doubt our capability to build them because of elevation issues is just silly. Not pointing fingers at you or anything, just addressing a general sentiment stirred up by the article.

This is a significant development for Lakeland. Unlike Orlando, Lakeland is establishing its rail connections before the metro reaches a population of one million. While this won't entirely prevent sprawl, it will encourage more development in the urban core, more intensely than if these rail connections weren't established. Additionally, the potential addition of a Brightline station on the north side of Lakeland could further contribute to the city's urbanization. Here’s an interesting speculation: in the original HSR plan, the prime location for the Lakeland station was at the intersection of I-4 and Kathleen Rd. This spot is conveniently located near the CSX tracks that lead to Downtown Lakeland. If Brightline chooses this as their Lakeland stop there could be a future opportunity to utilize this line to link the two stations. When I was growing up we always used Lakeland as the butt of jokes but now there's all the potential in the world for it to become an inland Sarasota in terms of vibrancy and density but with the added benefit of easy rail connectivity to all of Florida's major metros something that is not in the cards for Sarasota for decades. I would 100% live in Downtown Lakeland now that regular rail service to Tampa and Orlando is looking increasingly likely.

An article dropped yesterday about Tampa getting a grant to form an organization that looks for ways to fund big transit projects in the city. https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2023/10/17/tampa-scores-usdot-planning-grant.html They mentioned a few projects they're seeking funding for one was for multimodal connections to a future Brightline station, while they mentioned Ybor as the location in the article there's still a few people that believe the ultimate location of the station will be near the Marion Transit Center in North Downtown. The reason being, there is more room for Brightline to develop here as Ybor's land is basically all in the hands of the Gasworx project developer, Daryl Shaw. Shaw has had conversations with Brightline and they're on good terms but if part of Brightline's business model is to make money on developing land they own around stations then the MTC location makes more sense. It was also the proposed location of the original HSR. The other interesting project they mentioned was using the CSX line that runs from Tampa Union to South Tampa. This hits a lot of great areas like Franklin St. , the Arts district, The University of Tampa, North Hyde Park, South Hyde Park, Hyde Park village, Palma Ceia/ Bayshore, Gandy and Port Tampa. This line is also the western leg of the CSX line that turns into the Sunrail corridor which I think we all believe is eventually going to make its way to Hillsborough after the Polk extension. Another project they mentioned that could potentially be another reason Brightline moves to the MTC location was a "Premium" transit project the city wants to pursue connecting Downtown with Tampa International and the most obvious way to get there is via the massively wide 275 median which runs right next to the MTC down to the Westshore district where they have a proposed multimodal center that is only a mile or so from TPA. Westshore is also home to one of the biggest business districts in the state, 2 popular malls, and many midrise apartment projects that have either been built or are in the works. It could also potentially connect Tampa to St. Pete via rail eventually as the new Howard franklin bridge expansion is being built with space for premium transit. I could foresee a scenario where Tampa and Brightline share these tracks and, not that Brightline would stop at any of these places, but if a line were built via the 275 median it would be able to serve the new West River project, Old West Tampa which is essentially another Ybor City, and Midtown Tampa which while cool on its own also offers an nearby link to Raymond James Stadium. A lot of this info was only speculative just a year ago. A lot could happen good or bad...but the fact that its being openly talked about now is pretty substantial. The Florida peninsula could be pretty well connected in the next 20 years. There's definitely a momentum we haven't seen before.

I'm not as up to speed as you guys so you may have already known this but while reading about the possible extension into Lakeland I also saw an interview with someone from FDOT where he spoke about how they have a tentative plan to expand to Daytona as well. The interview was only from 2021. https://www.news-journalonline.com/videos/business/travel/2021/10/15/watch-fdot-official-talks-possibly-extending-sunrail-line-daytona-airport/8467803002/ If Duval and St. Johns pull off their proposed commuter line and Sunrail gets to Daytona, the chances of a Daytona to Jacksonville extension increase substantially. Also, Sunrail to Lakeland is going to start more serious conversations on extensions to Plant City, Brandon, and Tampa. If you've never been, Plant City has great bones. It could easily be another DeLand . Brandon sucks and will always suck but its a prominent suburb and it would be nearly impossible that it wouldn't get a stop.