Brightline Trains

[cubanbread]

22 hours ago, codypet said:

Treasure Coast people are still complaining they don't want the train to come through there.

There are as many people that want a stop in the Treasure coast as there are people that don't. 
Stuart was supposedly the town that was the most against Brightline but when the train took its inaugural trip to Orlando more people showed up to railfan in Stuart than any other town along the way. 

[shardoon]

2 hours ago, cubanbread said:

There are as many people that want a stop in the Treasure coast as there are people that don't. 
Stuart was supposedly the town that was the most against Brightline but when the train took its inaugural trip to Orlando more people showed up to railfan in Stuart than any other town along the way. 

They need to chill with all the potential new stops or offer an express train. Going to Miami by train becomes less than ideal with all these added stops

[jrs2]

On 10/3/2023 at 2:19 PM, aent said:

Brightline said the trains are running about 75% capacity so far on average, with 18 runs of trains entirely sold out so far.... but they're only running half the trains they're supposed to. They'll be go to a full schedule in a week, and are cutting the price if you get off at WPB by $10, since the train is usually at capacity from WPB-MIA, to encourage people to get off there.  Their Christmas Train, Polar Express will be taking a hiatus this year due to lack of train availability... they'll revisit its return once they get delivery of the 20 new passenger cars on order.

They also said they expect the Treasure Coast station to be fully open by 2028, but not where it will be quite yet

I was wondering about that; same price to MIA as with WPB, being 60-70 miles apart...

wow, they've 20 passenger cars on order...

[aent]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I was wondering about that; same price to MIA as with WPB, being 60-70 miles apart...

wow, they've 20 passenger cars on order...

Yes, 10 delivered next year and 10 the year following... 10 are also cafe cars. 10 sets is one additional for each train brightline has

[cubanbread]

20 hours ago, shardoon said:

They need to chill with all the potential new stops or offer an express train. Going to Miami by train becomes less than ideal with all these added stops

I think there will be 2 more stops added between Miami and Orlando. One will be somewhere in Brevard and the other will be on the Treasure Coast in either Martin or St. Lucie.. The funny thing is, the Treasure coast stop was the requirement of a lawsuit filed against Brightline that was eventually settled with an organization called Citizens Against Rail Expansion in Florida...they literally tried to stop Brightline from expanding to Orlando only to settle and require that they add a stop in their area. 

Almost certainly, these stops will be served with the same frequency as the Boca and Aventura stations to keep the majority of the trains running from MIA to MCO at that 3hour or so time frame.

The Treasure coast stop has to be in service within 5 years as part of the settlement. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by cubanbread

[dcluley98]

A lot of the videos online of the full trip from Miami to ORL the duration was actually a lot longer than what they quoted.  Not sure if this is just because it is the initial runs and they are still getting used to the tracks and speed/crossings, or if it will stay that way. 

More stations adds more time and it would eventually make it less beneficial compared to car-driven.  This was meant to be intercity with other services serving local connections.  I believe they will only have 2 stations between MCO and Tampa: One in the tourist area (whether it be CC/Sunshine Corridor Sunrail connection or Disney) and Lakeland. 

[cubanbread]

Interesting. I've watched about 3 or 4 videos and they all showed them arriving on time.

[aent]

3 hours ago, cubanbread said:

Interesting. I've watched about 3 or 4 videos and they all showed them arriving on time.

Brightline left extra time in the schedule, so both statements are true. Brightline will be adjusting the schedule and running the trains faster within the next week. Ideally, on a similar timeframe, the St Lucie River Bridge will get replaced with the opening of the next station.... the current bridge is single track and limited to 25mph, so thy obviously can do a lot better eliminating that segment.

[Alleri459]

5 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

A lot of the videos online of the full trip from Miami to ORL the duration was actually a lot longer than what they quoted.  Not sure if this is just because it is the initial runs and they are still getting used to the tracks and speed/crossings, or if it will stay that way. 

More stations adds more time and it would eventually make it less beneficial compared to car-driven.  This was meant to be intercity with other services serving local connections.  I believe they will only have 2 stations between MCO and Tampa: One in the tourist area (whether it be CC/Sunshine Corridor Sunrail connection or Disney) and Lakeland. 

Were they all from the first day? I had a friend from Miami take it up to Orlando on the first day and it did take longer. The trip back arrived at the Miami station ahead of schedule. 

[dcluley98]

Yeah, a lot were from the first day, but I don't think all of them. I think it should get better and more reliable over time, and I expect them to make some more improvements to improve efficiency such as the bridge Aent mentioned above and double-tracking in some spots. Would like to see BL work to improve some slowdown areas and/or try to eliminate some grade crossings in areas over time, but unsure if they would spend the money on that when the already have ambitions elsewhere such as BL west and the Tampa phase. 

[aent]

1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

Yeah, a lot were from the first day, but I don't think all of them. I think it should get better and more reliable over time, and I expect them to make some more improvements to improve efficiency such as the bridge Aent mentioned above and double-tracking in some spots. Would like to see BL work to improve some slowdown areas and/or try to eliminate some grade crossings in areas over time, but unsure if they would spend the money on that when the already have ambitions elsewhere such as BL west and the Tampa phase. 

A core issue with removing existing grade crossings is they obviously need to maintain the existing track while bridges are constructed, and they don't have the ROW for that.

[jrs2]

16 hours ago, aleonrivera said:

Were they all from the first day? I had a friend from Miami take it up to Orlando on the first day and it did take longer. The trip back arrived at the Miami station ahead of schedule. 

I think it has to do with time of day and the fact that it is the first week or so of service.  It looks like they've been trying to get a "feel" for the tracks along the route in certain spots during a "break in" period, IMO, and now that they are confident everything checks out, they are turning it up a notch speed-wise.  it's my take anyway.

But I would try to identify trouble spot intersections with a lot of headway on both sides and build a few bridges through those intersections over time.

[jrs2]

https://www.costar.com/article/1062716315/brightlines-new-orlando-route-signals-floridas-potential-transit-future

 

[cubanbread]

Great article.  
Florida has been doing pretty well lately when it comes to TOD. 
SunRail's frequency is trash but there was an article that came out last year that stated the system attracted 72 TOD projects around its stations totaling about 2 billion in construction value. (https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2022/03/24/sunrail-transit-oriented-development.html) Even a class A suburb like DeBary is getting in on the action.  

Tampa doesn't have heavy rail yet, but the development along the Streetcar line is jaw-dropping and it's only the start of 2 massive mixed-use projects currently under construction. 
2017 - 2023


I'm really curious to see how the west side of Downtown West Palm Beach develops in the coming years. 
Brightline and Tri-Rail both sit on the under developed side of US1 and are about .6 miles apart which fits perfectly in that TOD range. They also sit blocks away from Clematis St. which is like their Orange Ave.  Seems like a perfect storm for that city.


 

[jrs2]

6 hours ago, cubanbread said:

Great article.  
Florida has been doing pretty well lately when it comes to TOD. 
SunRail's frequency is trash but there was an article that came out last year that stated the system attracted 72 TOD projects around its stations totaling about 2 billion in construction value. (https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2022/03/24/sunrail-transit-oriented-development.html) Even a class A suburb like DeBary is getting in on the action.  

Tampa doesn't have heavy rail yet, but the development along the Streetcar line is jaw-dropping and it's only the start of 2 massive mixed-use projects currently under construction. 
2017 - 2023


I'm really curious to see how the west side of Downtown West Palm Beach develops in the coming years. 
Brightline and Tri-Rail both sit on the under developed side of US1 and are about .6 miles apart which fits perfectly in that TOD range. They also sit blocks away from Clematis St. which is like their Orange Ave.  Seems like a perfect storm for that city.


 

unfortunately, Orlando City Hall is too busy providing FREE bus service (BRT) to the downtown homeless, making DTO a "safe haven" for the homeless, since it's so easy and convenient to get around, therefore them being the ones mainly using it.  And people wonder why DTO is sliding backwards or stagnant in its growth.  You won't see any area billionaires investing in DTO like in Tampa.  Why did Walgreens close?  Because of all the theft.  Same with the 7-Eleven(s). 

Tampa has a waterfront and a river; both major assets.  Orlando has Lake Eola as a magnet and that's pretty much it.  Yet knowing this, City Hall is too busy catering to the homeless using LYMMO and camped out at Lake Eola Park.  Orlando does not take care of it's downtown assets, and any growth that has occurred, DTO has been lucky to get.  That's why for City projects DTO has to piggyback off of the TDT, revenue which is created away from downtown for reasons other than downtown's existence.  It's actually created mostly outside the City Limits, and then partly spent in DTO so that Lynx can provide free bus service to the homeless- money that could have been spent on a streetcar line using that easement instead where they would have charged to use it; instead they give it away for free and run it (i.e., it's potential benefit for TOD) into the ground.  So, all we're left with is Sunrail, a CRT.  What a wasted opportunity; wasted on BS.

Sunrail needs the airport link.  Once they get that, the frequency can increase.  I don't even know what the plan is for that due to the Sunshine Corridor proposal including it within that plan.

The Tampa Streetcar is a very good thing because it services in a close-in geographic area.  You won't see that in DTO because LYMMO is being misused yet could've served a similar purpose.

[cubanbread]

Orlando is going to be fine man. It's not the only city in the US with a homeless problem trust me. 
I live in St. Pete which is seeing major growth and we've unfortunately had a bad homeless problem for many years, in fact, some have set up camp right outside of my apartment. This is a US problem. 

You live in Orlando, I get to view it from an outside perspective. For whatever problems DTORL is experiencing right now, you guys still have one of the best urban fabrics of any FL city. Not to mention Orlando has the best surburbs of any FL city.  Winter Park, Winter Garden, Sanford, Deland and even Kissimmee all have great starts to smaller urban cores and you have a rail service that services almost all of these places.. yes, the service sucks now... BUT YOU HAVE SERVICE and it's more likely that it's going to get better over time than something catastrophic like it being discontinued. 

Tampa Bay is made up of several cities and NONE of them are connected by rail...there are only like 6 buses a day between Tampa and St. Pete and the ferry is only seasonal.  You guys are complaining about the airport not having Sunrail yet and we have like 2 buses that serve TPA which while not the size of Orlando or Miami is still a very busy airport. 

The Sunshine Corridor is going to happen, Orlando is going to continue to grow and Tampa Bay will eventually get Brightline and a local rail network... but I'm with you... it's taking too long.



 

[codypet]

19 hours ago, jrs2 said:

unfortunately, Orlando City Hall is too busy providing FREE bus service (BRT) to the downtown homeless, making DTO a "safe haven" for the homeless, since it's so easy and convenient to get around, therefore them being the ones mainly using it.  And people wonder why DTO is sliding backwards or stagnant in its growth.  You won't see any area billionaires investing in DTO like in Tampa.  Why did Walgreens close?  Because of all the theft.  Same with the 7-Eleven(s). 

Tampa has a waterfront and a river; both major assets.  Orlando has Lake Eola as a magnet and that's pretty much it.  Yet knowing this, City Hall is too busy catering to the homeless using LYMMO and camped out at Lake Eola Park.  Orlando does not take care of it's downtown assets, and any growth that has occurred, DTO has been lucky to get.  That's why for City projects DTO has to piggyback off of the TDT, revenue which is created away from downtown for reasons other than downtown's existence.  It's actually created mostly outside the City Limits, and then partly spent in DTO so that Lynx can provide free bus service to the homeless- money that could have been spent on a streetcar line using that easement instead where they would have charged to use it; instead they give it away for free and run it (i.e., it's potential benefit for TOD) into the ground.  So, all we're left with is Sunrail, a CRT.  What a wasted opportunity; wasted on BS.

Sunrail needs the airport link.  Once they get that, the frequency can increase.  I don't even know what the plan is for that due to the Sunshine Corridor proposal including it within that plan.

The Tampa Streetcar is a very good thing because it services in a close-in geographic area.  You won't see that in DTO because LYMMO is being misused yet could've served a similar purpose.

The LYMMO's existence has more to do with the fact that we don't have more than 1 grocery store downtown.  Downtown St. Pete has 2 Urban format Publixs. The LYMMO's are effectively providing free transport to the apartments in North Quarter, CBD, and Paramore neighborhoods that have limited mobility and have grant funding based on that premise.  Yes, a side effect is the homeless are riding them, but Lynx as a whole has that going on too.  There's not a huge difference between a free bus and a bus that lets you ride all over town for $2.  

Are you sure about the theft?  Was that what their press release closings said?

Walgreen's shortsightedness did them in.  I've never heard of a Walgreen's with no pharmacy.  That was setting itself up for failure.  Now anyone downtown with a prescription has to go to Publix or drive out to CVS on Mills or worse yet Walgreen's in SODO or the Milk District.   Their 5 year lease included 2 years during a pandemic.  With the new corporate direction of fewer locations (Remember Walgreen's closed the Hourglass and 436 locations in favor of a single Conway one) It doesn't surprise me Walgreen's said yea we're done.

The two 7-11's that closed, one doesn't count because they were effectively strong armed to close.  The other, presumably the Plaza building 7-11 has a well documented history of sewer and maintenance issues that caused a number of businesses to close.  

Edited October 10, 2023 by codypet

[cubanbread]

St. Pete has 2 Publix's downtown but only one is urban format, the other was built in the traditional suburban plaza style but I don't really blame them for this, they built that location long before St. Pete became cool.
St. Pete also just started running the SunRunner which is legit BRT (at least the portion outside of St. Pete Beach) it started off free and has been incredibly popular thus far.. they were even going to extend the time frame that it was going to remain free but politicians in St. Pete Beach claimed that it was attracting homeless people and now the service is paid via a tap system. 

I think the officials in St. Pete beach are lying to be honest because they have a history of trying to kill or cripple the Sunrunner, but setting that context aside, I am sympathetic to the requirement that transit needs to be clean and safe to attract more average riders, I think this is a big factor in Brightline's success actually,  people are willing to pay $15 for a Brightline ticket compared to $5 on Tri-Rail and I think a lot of that has to do with cleanliness and perceived safety. 




 

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

The LYMMO's existence has more to do with the fact that we don't have more than 1 grocery store downtown.  Downtown St. Pete has 2 Urban format Publixs. The LYMMO's are effectively providing free transport to the apartments in North Quarter, CBD, and Paramore neighborhoods that have limited mobility and have grant funding based on that premise.  Yes, a side effect is the homeless are riding them, but Lynx as a whole has that going on too.  There's not a huge difference between a free bus and a bus that lets you ride all over town for $2.  

Are you sure about the theft?  Was that what their press release closings said?

Walgreen's shortsightedness did them in.  I've never heard of a Walgreen's with no pharmacy.  That was setting itself up for failure.  Now anyone downtown with a prescription has to go to Publix or drive out to CVS on Mills or worse yet Walgreen's in SODO or the Milk District.   Their 5 year lease included 2 years during a pandemic.  With the new corporate direction of fewer locations (Remember Walgreen's closed the Hourglass and 436 locations in favor of a single Conway one) It doesn't surprise me Walgreen's said yea we're done.

The two 7-11's that closed, one doesn't count because they were effectively strong armed to close.  The other, presumably the Plaza building 7-11 has a well documented history of sewer and maintenance issues that caused a number of businesses to close.  

I have a friend who is one of their pharmacists and they tell me the trends nationwide as they're happening.  But, yes, no pharmacy...odd.  I would go there often and I would talk to neighbors who would go there and when 7-Eleven closed, the riff raff set up shop at Walgreens.  And it is slowly trickling over to Publix.  But Walgreens brought it upon themselves because they do not enforce theft.. so be it with them.  

On the subject of LYMMO and Publix, I can say with confidence if a busy walking corridor is a good sign of a downtown's vibrancy, then Lake St & Central is that intersection, where Publix is.  There are people crossing the street so often, you could make a new Beatles album cover.  Is that  LYMMO stop in front of Waverly?

Just to clear up something- I feel for the homeless; I've helped the homeless before and continue to with participation in outreach.  I just don't want them zonked out of their gordes walking in front of where merchants are trying to lure patrons.

Case in point.  California.  A few short years ago I was in Beverly Hills on Wilshire two blocks from the Pretty Woman hotel and the security guard literally assaulted a vagrant who tried to camp out in front of their boutique.  I mean the shout fest that ensued was like monumental.  Does the City have merchants' backs?  I don't know.

2 hours ago, cubanbread said:

St. Pete has 2 Publix's downtown but only one is urban format, the other was built in the traditional suburban plaza style but I don't really blame them for this, they built that location long before St. Pete became cool.
St. Pete also just started running the SunRunner which is legit BRT (at least the portion outside of St. Pete Beach) it started off free and has been incredibly popular thus far.. they were even going to extend the time frame that it was going to remain free but politicians in St. Pete Beach claimed that it was attracting homeless people and now the service is paid via a tap system. 

I think the officials in St. Pete beach are lying to be honest because they have a history of trying to kill or cripple the Sunrunner, but setting that context aside, I am sympathetic to the requirement that transit needs to be clean and safe to attract more average riders, I think this is a big factor in Brightline's success actually,  people are willing to pay $15 for a Brightline ticket compared to $5 on Tri-Rail and I think a lot of that has to do with cleanliness and perceived safety. 
 

I know people that take BL for $15 between Miami and Broward...they say its packed...

[aent]

The Universal taxing district was approved by Orange County, providing 13 acres of land for a station, $125 million bond to construct the Sunshine Corridor (likely 5% of the cost), and Universal will guarantee $13 million in ticket sales annually. I am curious about that last point, does that mean Universal might bundle Brightline tickets with on site hotel stays?

 

https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2023/10/10/orange-county-commission-votes-to-establish-taxing-district

[aent]

I've heard Brightline placed another order for 10 more passenger cars in the last few weeks, which means they've ordered enough to bring the total cars per train from four to seven, expanding by one per year for the next three years. They're also trying to add another daily train on top of the new schedule later this year.

[codypet]

11 hours ago, aent said:

The Universal taxing district was approved by Orange County, providing 13 acres of land for a station, $125 million bond to construct the Sunshine Corridor (likely 5% of the cost), and Universal will guarantee $13 million in ticket sales annually. I am curious about that last point, does that mean Universal might bundle Brightline tickets with on site hotel stays?

 

https://mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2023/10/10/orange-county-commission-votes-to-establish-taxing-district

Think Disney's magical express by train.

1 minute ago, aent said:

I've heard Brightline placed another order for 10 more passenger cars in the last few weeks, which means they've ordered enough to bring the total cars per train from four to seven, expanding by one per year for the next three years. They're also trying to add another daily train on top of the new schedule later this year.

I heard they ordered 20 cars, but 10 of them are dinning cars for their current fleet.  I believe the stations are built to accommodate 10 cars.

[aent]

33 minutes ago, codypet said:

I heard they ordered 20 cars, but 10 of them are dinning cars for their current fleet.  I believe the stations are built to accommodate 10 cars.

They ordered 20 additional cars a little over year ago, when they started operating the WPB-MIA route with 5 cars and doing the testing with shorter trains on the MCO-WPB. In the last few weeks since launching Orlando service, they've decided that order of 20 wasn't enough, and ordered an additional 10 on top of that, so the order is now for 30. The stations are designed for 10 cars.

[jliv]

Virgin Group won its lawsuit against Brightline over royalty fees: https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/virgin-group-wins-250-mln-london-court-battle-over-brand-reputation-2023-10-12/

[jrs2]

36 minutes ago, jliv said:

Virgin Group won its lawsuit against Brightline over royalty fees: https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/virgin-group-wins-250-mln-london-court-battle-over-brand-reputation-2023-10-12/

I always wondered what happened with Virgin.  It's funny, because Johnny Depp was Britified as well when he sued that British publication and the British court ruled in favor of the home team.

If you ask me, I would have assumed Virgin was on the decline as well.  I haven't seen as many Virgin jumbo jets flying into MCO like they used to 10-15 years ago, and, Virgin Galactic never did anything after all that press years back  And, Virgin Megastore disappeared more than ten years ago at Downtown Disney.  So, doesn't that wreak of "decline"?  Looks like it to me. 

I think Branson wanted the branding to revive Virgin.