Nashville Bits and Pieces

[bigeasy]

I can't stand the scooters, but I don't personally believe they are the problem. Nor do I think they should be removed, maybe just better regulation. The problem are the people using them. I have never been on one but to me they would be a great alternative for commuting. However, the people that I see using them are tourist or just people downtown looking to have fun in a group. Therefor they are usually not being observant of their surroundings, do not follow the rules of the road, and in some cases could be a bit intoxicated.

[CenterHill]

3 hours ago, bigeasy said:

I can't stand the scooters, but I don't personally believe they are the problem. Nor do I think they should be removed, maybe just better regulation. The problem are the people using them. I have never been on one but to me they would be a great alternative for commuting. However, the people that I see using them are tourist or just people downtown looking to have fun in a group. Therefor they are usually not being observant of their surroundings, do not follow the rules of the road, and in some cases could be a bit intoxicated.

So the scooters would be fine if someone other than people rode them

[PruneTracy]

15 minutes ago, CenterHill said:

So the scooters would be fine if someone other than people rode them

[KJHburg]

 

Atlanta had their first scooter death this week as well.

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/5/20/18632353/e-scooter-death-infrastructure-improvements-complete-streets

[AronG]

Scooters are wildly better for the city, for a dozen different reasons. They can move a lot more people around in way less space, require little-to-no public investment, and present virtually no safety risks to others relative to cars, which we've all just somehow priced in will kill or maim tens of thousands of people in Tennessee every year and it isn't even a topic of discussion. They're enormously better for the environment, more available across income levels, and they incentivize more inclusive and resilient development patterns. If we gave them a tiny fraction of the public infrastructure we dedicate to cars it would be relatively straightforward to address the concerns people have about where they're parked and ridden.

It seems insane to me that we would instead respond to this new option by regulating them out of existence. And lock ourselves into the preexisting pattern that necessitates everyone getting everywhere in a car, perpetuating a self-reinforcing cycle of more traffic, more space wasted on parking, wider roads, more deaths, more pollution, and a generally more unpleasant urban environment. But I guess that's where we're headed with all the griping and the negativity. The mayor called them a "failed experiment" this morning at the Nashville Walk Bike forum.

[Jamie Hall]

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, AronG said:

The mayor called them a "failed experiment" this morning at the Nashville Walk Bike forum.

That's an incredibly disappointing opinion by a mayor and administration who have themselves been a "failed experiment" in a few ways, but that's for another forum. As for scooters: I've had a fair share of irritations by scooters and scooter users, but my hope (and personal opinion) is that with a little more education, coordination and regulation,  scooters can fit it seamlessly with vehicle and pedestrian traffic. Take away scooters, and those riders will just open an app and request an Uber or Lyft ride -- which means more vehicular traffic.

[Hey_Hey]

We don't know a whole lot about the safety of scooters yet.  While it is cold, a death alone isn't a reason to get rid of the scooters because there is a fatality rate with automobiles as well.  The question should be what is the fatality rate on a scooter vs a vehicle. If there is 1 fatality for every 2 million miles in a vehicle and 1 fatality for every 3 million miles on a scooter then that is important information to have.  Also important is knowing what the environmental effects of automobiles are vs scooters and the increased productivity the city gets by having decreased congestion.  My suspicion is that scooters probably have a higher fatality rate, but I don't have any actual data to back that up.  Until then we need to withhold judgement.  

I also think it is ironic that we view scooters as this scourge on the city because they take up a small bit of sidewalk space while completely ignoring the vast amounts of dedicated real estate that automobiles consume in every part of our city.  However, we are numb to the effects of automobiles while the relatively small effects of scooters are prominent in our minds because they are new.

[CenterHill]

In a way, what we're experiencing with scooters is exactly what cities everywhere experienced at the turn of the last century when gas automobiles first appeared on city streets dominated by horses and pedestrians.     Streets were dirt and there was absolutely no infrastructure in place to accommodate "cars".      Cars were noisy and fast, which terrified pedestrians and horses, and people petitioned their city leaders to ban them.     One huge difference is that in 1900, cities were not giving permits to companies to allow them to drop 1000 cars at a time on city streets, so the proliferation of automobiles was much more gradual, but we all know how that story played out.     

By contrast, scooters have just suddenly appeared by the thousands on city streets that have no infrastructure or enforcement mechanisms to accommodate them.     So, yes, today's users of city streets and sidewalks (pedestrians and car drivers) are justifiably upset about where and how scooters are being ridden and stored when they are encroaching on the current users' designated spaces.      I do agree that electric scooters present a unique and desirable component of a city's overall transportation mix.     But cities have been caught flat footed, wondering whether to jump in and invest the millions it would take to redesign their streets or if it is better to wait and see if this is all a fad that will fade away.      Personally, I don't think scooters are a fad and, absent cities banning them, I don't think they are going to just go away.      Cities are going to have to look very hard at this and react.    If cities choose to issue permits and allow scooters, then at an absolute minimum, cities will have to enact rules for their use and dedicate the resources to enforce them.       Until that happens, there is going to be an uneasy tension, or downright hostility, about the proliferation of scooters.   

 

[smeagolsfree]

I disagree with your assessment about a small amount of sidewalk space. I walk more than the average Joe downtown and I can't tell you the number of times I have been nearly hit, tripped over, dodged, thrown one of these pieces of crap off the sidewalk to get it out of my way. I get dirty looks when I politely tell these arrogant little snots they are supposed to be riding them in the streets.    

I have talked to Metro Police officers and they have pretty much been directed to give a hands off approach to the issue as they have too many other things to do. 

The speed limit is entirely too fast. The users do not know how to use them . The users do not obey the rules of the road or sidewalk as they think it is their privilege to run everyone else off the road and sidewalk out of their way. They dont wear helmets and the companies still rent to every Tom, Dick and, drunk Mary out there. This is not to mention the folks that think they can go against traffic on them.

The companies lie when they say they do not place them in handicap zones and on sidewalks as I have seen them place them myself in the sidewalk path and they want you to contact them, but when you look at their websites there is no place many times or ever to contact them.

They are a menace to the user, the law abiding pedestrians, handicap persons, the worn out drivers that have enough to do to look out for drunk pedestrians and stupid tourist that are constantly walking out in front of cars, construction companies closing sidewalks, which Metro Council promised they would fix, irregular lane changes and closures, not to mention the fact that we have tons more folks living, visiting, and working downtown than we did 5 years ago.

They have opened every part of the city to these two wheeled monsters and they are parked on city streets all over town, sorry laying in city streets.

 

Yes I think it is a failed experiment and you wonder why they are banned in NYC and only allowed in certain areas of Chicago. This is a fad and will soon run its course as most cities will come to realize they are not worth the headache they are causing.

 

[Craiger]

I'll just leave this here. 

 

 

[markhollin]

Another huge hiring announcement: Postmates will hire between 500 and 1,000 new employees at a 100,000 sq. ft. space in MetroCenter at 431 Great Circle Rd.

The company is a pioneer in providing on-demand delivery of food and other items.  They first opened a 10,000 sq. ft. office in Nashville in 2016 at Cummins Station. By spring of last year they had 280 employees here, and have nearly doubled that in the last 12 months.  They will eventually move all of their staff out of Cummins station (due to the lack of expansion options there) to the new location.

Generally, sources with knowledge of the expansion described the forthcoming jobs as various "operations" positions. Most recently, CVS used the MetroCenter building as a call center.

More behind the NBJ paywall here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2019/05/22/exclusivewest-coast-company-plots-giant-nashville.html?ana=twt

[donNdonelson2]

A friend of mine recorded his walk along Broadway a few nights ago. From 5 th Avenue to 7 th Avenue he counted almost 100 scooters littering the sidewalks.

The companies who place these scooters cannot control their hardware nor activity of the customers who rent them. I would rejoice at their exit from our community. 

I expect that the majority of trips the scooters are currently used for could easily be made on foot anyway. The walk will be good for you, eh?

[AronG]

50 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

We don't know a whole lot about the safety of scooters yet.  While it is cold, a death alone isn't a reason to get rid of the scooters because there is a fatality rate with automobiles as well.

It's true that we need to understand more about what the statistics tell us about scooter safety, but the irony of this is that we're not even actually talking about deaths caused by cars vs. deaths caused by scooters. Even the so-called scooter deaths are caused by cars, regardless of who made the last ill-advised decision. Cars are enormous fast-moving objects, controlled by erratic, distracted humans. It's a bad fit for squishy humans in close proximity in urban spaces. Cars kill scooter riders, bikers, pedestrians (dozens in Nashville every year!), and other car drivers. It's a farce to pretend like the safety risk is the tiny little scooter.

Low-speed, low-mass urban transportation (so-called micromobility) is not a fad. As this city, and all the growing urban centers in the US, continue to bog down with single-occupant car traffic, people are only going to get hungrier for ways to get around with less friction. And the efficient motors, high-energy batteries, and smartphone apps that made these things possible is a real technological leap that represents a new way to move light-transit-level numbers of people around sub-3-mile distances without a huge up-front investment. Look at Paris for an example of a city that's channeling this in a positive direction.

A rational program of action for Nashville would involve A.) providing dedicated space for scooters to get around and park (again, a tiny fraction of what we provide for cars), and B.) a mild tune-up of our regulation and enforcement. I'd advocate dialing down the speed limit on the things from 20mph to 15mph and starting a limited enforcement effort to punish the worst offenders. We should already have a funding stream from the permitting process, and fines can help.

The cities that take constructive steps to incorporate these things into their transportation options are going to have a much more attractive urban environment in 5 years than the ones that stick with the status quo and are ever-more bogged down in traffic.

[volsfanwill]

My friend at postmates confirms marks info. He wouldn't add anymore. Just confirmed it is correct. 

[Bos2Nash]

59 minutes ago, donNdonelson2 said:

I expect that the majority of trips the scooters are currently used for could easily be made on foot anyway. The walk will be good for you, eh?

I've been using the scooters a fair amount as of recently to get around the core. My trips are normally several miles long so having the scooter has made moving around very easy. We are a one-car household and quite honestly the scooters have made life a bit easier with hectic schedules.

The problem isnt the scooters themselves, it the enforcement and the users. I ride in bikes lanes or on the road where I can, but on some roads, its plain not safe to do that (8th Ave for example). METRO needs to step their enforcement (and abandon this "hands-off" approach BS) and grab intoxicated people for OUI, fine people who are on the sidewalk. If the scooters are parked incorrectly, the companies shouldn't have 2-hours to move the scooter either. The city ordinance made specific points about data sharing, so the city should have access to the parking photos everyone has to take and for every single one not parked correctly, there is an automatic fine of $25 dollars. People who charge and place these things in the street should also document how they are placed. 

 

[UTgrad09]

All scooters should be banned and dumped in the scrap yard. And those that want to defend them can join them.

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

I disagree with your assessment about a small amount of sidewalk space. I walk more than the average Joe downtown and I can't tell you the number of times I have been nearly hit, tripped over, dodged, thrown one of these pieces of crap off the sidewalk to get it out of my way. I get dirty looks when I politely tell these arrogant little snots they are supposed to be riding them in the streets.    

I have talked to Metro Police officers and they have pretty much been directed to give a hands off approach to the issue as they have too many other things to do. 

The speed limit is entirely too fast. The users do not know how to use them . The users do not obey the rules of the road or sidewalk as they think it is their privilege to run everyone else off the road and sidewalk out of their way. 

Like @CenterHill said above, most of all the same complaints can and have been said about cars at one point. 

Scooter wrecks/accidents by themselves seem to rarely involve a death. Deaths seem to only happen when a car is involved. So instead of banning a mode of transportation that gets cars off the streets why not give them the infrastructure already. Bike lanes don't take extra roads, they take some paint and some political will.

In Austin this past weekend they had speeds zones set up (which I've never seen before in Nashville) and your scooter could only do 8mph in those areas. I felt that was a good compromise. 

[Jamie Hall]

 

 

1

5 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

The problem isnt the scooters themselves, it the enforcement and the users. ... METRO needs to step their enforcement (and abandon this "hands-off" approach BS) and grab intoxicated people for OUI, fine people who are on the sidewalk. If the scooters are parked incorrectly, the companies shouldn't have 2-hours to move the scooter either.

 

^^^ DITTO! Instead of Briley just giving in and calling scooters a "failed experiment," he should've taken a pro-active approach to make them a successful experiment. Beef up the requirements on the companies to educate riders and hold the companies accountable. And surely the speed on those things can be controlled by the company -- maybe the max speed needs to be reduced on the scooters themselves.

[PaulChinetti]

I wonder how that would work the max speed is much different for my big ass than it is for my wife. Especially on hills, haha! 

[UTgrad09]

Scooter riders are like lemmings, and will eventually meet the same fate.

[Nash_12South]

I understand all the comments on where scooters will be in our future. I'm just not sure Nashville is an appropriate city to work out the kinks. Two thirds of Nashville users seem to be tourists who have no understanding of the rules nor willingness to abide by them. 

Also - was it too long ago that easy to pick up bicycles were the wave of the future? We'd have stands to drop off/pick up on every block and no one would use cars......

Edited May 22, 2019 by Nash_12South

[BnaBreaker]

So, apparently @UTgrad09 is not a scooter fan...

[titanhog]

[Rockatansky]

3 hours ago, Hey_Hey said:

1 fatality for every 2 million miles in a vehicle and 1 fatality for every 3 million miles on a scooter

When comparing different modes with different speeds at different scales one should use fatalities per trip, not per mile.

[PruneTracy]

13 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

When comparing different modes with different speeds at different scales one should use fatalities per trip, not per mile.

That's not quite right as your exposure to crash risk is based on the length/duration of your trip regardless of mode. Obviously if I scoot/ride/drive for just a few hundred feet then I'm exposed to less crash risk than if I scooted/rode/drove for two miles. This is true whether I'm alone on a street or in the middle of a busy thoroughfare, although of course a trip of the same length along each would present different risks as well. It's true that comparing fatality rates between vastly different modes is sort of apples-to-oranges but on the other hand you're just as dead if you die in a car wreck as you are if you die riding a scooter or flying in an airplane.

Ideally, since most non-vehicular fatalities involve a collision with a vehicle, the most accurate measurement would be a weighted sum of miles traveled with the number of vehicles using the same route. This is similar to how crash risk at railroad crossings is calculated (number of trains using the crossing × number of vehicles using the crossing). The scooter firms actually have a means to calculate this since all of their scooters are necessarily equipped with GPS. Would take a lot of computing however.