Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[jrs2]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:11 PM, dcluley98 said:

No, The Crystal Method did "Busy Child" 

not promoting, but. . .  Iffen' you want to go to old school Firestone and for all the crusties: 

https://www.thevanguard.live/event/rabbit-in-the-moon-ft-the-crystal-method-642572169657

yeah, Crystal Method.  I also remember Warp Bros., Faithless (they had that one song that used to be sampled on radio club commercials- Insomnia?), Lords of Acid, and a bunch of other bands.  That music was big.  It was like a continuation of the Techno that began in the Late '80's with...Lords of Acid, 2Unlimited, etc...  very cool musical era in that regard.

[AmIReal]

I'll put this here since we do not have a DPAC Phase 3 thread.

OBJ reports some specifics of the planned next phase (pending $145M funding request). Orlando Dr. Phillips Center for the Performing Arts shares more on third phase of construction - Orlando Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

Several interesting bits such as an outdoor performance auditorium for up to 7,000 people on the center's front lawn... see photos.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by AmIReal

[orlandocity87]

Why does the City insist on over-programming every park space we have? We need to stop re-doing things that are relatively new (Seneff Plaza, Edgewater Drive, downtown sidewalks) and focus on new assets to the community (Holocaust Museum, Corrine Drive, Orange Avenue at Ivanhoe). 

[codypet]

24 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

Why does the City insist on over-programming every park space we have? We need to stop re-doing things that are relatively new (Seneff Plaza, Edgewater Drive, downtown sidewalks) and focus on new assets to the community (Holocaust Museum, Corrine Drive, Orange Avenue at Ivanhoe). 

I'm missing something.  What about Edgewater Dr. and the downtown sidewalks are new?  

Corrine Dr is about to get redesigned within the year for construction within the next two.

Orange Avenue at Ivanhoe?  Are you talking about the road or the Park?  The park is fine, the road is FDOT's and its currently under design.  I'm confused.

[popsiclebrandon]

I like the idea and I'd need to see more but I really hate everything about the renderings.

[JFW657]

Kinda tacky and cheesy looking.

Cluttered. 

[FLClarkKent]

17 hours ago, AmIReal said:

 

 

Vibes.

 

[prahaboheme]

I like it — bold, interesting.

Build it!

On 6/16/2023 at 3:55 PM, orlandocity87 said:

Why does the City insist on over-programming every park space we have? We need to stop re-doing things that are relatively new (Seneff Plaza, Edgewater Drive, downtown sidewalks) and focus on new assets to the community (Holocaust Museum, Corrine Drive, Orange Avenue at Ivanhoe). 

I don’t understand this. If anything, Orlando has a failing record of creating dynamic public spaces recently, including Seneff Plaza and CV.

[Alleri459]

It's a great way to add capacity and complexity to this space. Also, the public pace is in desperate need of shaded areas, this can address that. It really depends how this is executed, imo. It could go the route of utilizing similar materials/elements/design of the center, or maybe a High Line or even the Little Island park-style pillars. 

[jrs2]

On 6/16/2023 at 2:43 PM, AmIReal said:

I'll put this here since we do not have a DPAC Phase 3 thread.

OBJ reports some specifics of the planned next phase (pending $145M funding request). Orlando Dr. Phillips Center for the Performing Arts shares more on third phase of construction - Orlando Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

Several interesting bits such as an outdoor performance auditorium for up to 7,000 people on the center's front lawn... see photos.

 

what buildings and/or structures are fronting Anderson & South Streets to the north and south?

I'd like to see where they got this idea from.  

The original idea was to have two low-rise structures to the north and south of the central spine of the courtyard, and those two structures would have balconies; assuming those would be hotel and/or office or a combination of each.  Then the proposal was a hotel along South Street and a rather tall silver office building along Anderson & Orange.  Then the proposal was...nothing...

Personally I don't know anyone who would voluntarily sweat in nice clothing outdoors at a venue facing west towards The Sun.  But if this is for, say, these outdoor concerts and stuff where people are partying anyway, then why not keep doing what they're doing on Orange Ave and on the grounds?  Why spend $156M.  If I was going to do anything, I would increase the inside mezzanine space or build something they could make money with, like an attached large ballroom.  I know they already host weddings/receptions and at times the place is packed with events.  Those people aren't going to hang out outdoors sweating nine months out of the year.

[JFW657]

IMO, they should have built DPAC all the way out to Orange Ave.

Then they could've done anything they wanted to behind it.  

Would've looked so much more dramatic with that building sitting right there on Orange.   

[jrs2]

10 hours ago, JFW657 said:

IMO, they should have built DPAC all the way out to Orange Ave.

Then they could've done anything they wanted to behind it.  

Would've looked so much more dramatic with that building sitting right there on Orange.   

I initially thought they were going to do with dpac ala Magnolia what they did to Parramore with Orlando City stadium.

Yeah, there are several moving parts that never came to fruition...like the hotel at Anderson & Magnolia, SW corner...

The aesthetic problem with dpac is that you never see it until you reach the South Street light.  You do see it on Anderson heading EB, but, like you said, Orange Ave is the principle route through DTO.  You know what does take advantage of this?  CNL Center and that pineapple sculpture in front of City Hall.  Great vista.  Kinda like...Radius has...(or vice versa)  

I went to Kennedy Center in NYC a couple months back...three separate buildings (maybe a separate hall within each?).  and it had a central paved courtyard with a fountain in the middle.  the courtyard was elevated; half a dozen steps?  it was cool.

wasn't there a proposal for an apartment building over the loading dock behind there?

The courtyard if nothing else, is a great place to say a Picasso type of statement sculpture; a big one.  Buddy could look out his window and fap to it.  But seriously, if you're gonna take a collection, get a Chicago-type notable sculpture right there in the middle that can't be ignored.  Or something like The Bean in Chicago.  Or this crazy thing at Hudson Yards in Manhattan that's a series of elevated stairwells and cross walks...16 stories tall...  Hire someone Spanish like Calatrava or the like...

More mezzanine space.  As large as it is, each level is a tad tight.  Albeit there are like 4-5 levels...but it's tight.  And they never built out to the curb along South Street.  Why?  Maybe expand in that direction and put something there.  They already have a plan for a jazz club on that side anyway where that door is midway towards the back.  More space = more money for them...

[prahaboheme]

On 6/16/2023 at 2:43 PM, AmIReal said:

 

 

I think this proposal does a nice job of solving a few of the problems that currently exist:

- Provides shade and covered spaces for weather-related events common to Orlando

- Provides restaurant / retail space for lounging 

- Cleverly maintains the lawn with the elevated section hovering over it, maintaining that it is a performance space

- Visually interesting design -- a place someone would look at and want to explore

[jrs2]

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/dr-phillips-center-hoping-for-145-million-expansion

good report.  dunno.  The City is giving dpac in essence so they can become landlords to restauranteurs and bar owners, right?  and then they're smattering in some ramps and a canopy for a stage, thus cheapening the aesthetic of the smoked glass elegance of the facade.

I don't like it.  in theory, I like the idea, but design-wise, I'm not a fan.

I think since they can justify an elevated "covering" over pedestrians for shade, then why not partner with a developer to build a tower that's elevated ala Aventura Tower at Universal where 2/3 of it's first two levels are elevated and open-air underneath, kinda like Citicorp Center (off to the side (south side))...  and then charge them rent for being on the property as an income stream...or give them the money to develop the building themselves.  $145M?  Does everyone here realize what can be built for that kind of money?  How much did Citi Tower cost?

That's not smart money because none of that money goes towards a new hall, and that's where the big money comes in with these things.  Where's the big money items here justifying this cost?  Is the Tourist Development Tax now akin to The FED?

I'd rather see more mezzanine space extended out with those eateries with indoor/outdoor seating options on either side of the elevated ballroom- while figuring out whether to keep Magnolia active or just cut it off once and for all.  Or, don't cut Magnolia off and put those restaurant spaces as planned on either side with connectivity to the overhang area (for rain) and leave it at that.  But $145M-175M?  They didn't really say with detail what that other space is for along South Street side.

[codypet]

They're installed and you can drive in, but there not turned on.  I could have gone with some kW labels. They have 4 empty parking spots with no chargers which probably would have been good for a pair J1772 spots.

[aent]

24 minutes ago, codypet said:

They're installed and you can drive in, but there not turned on.  I could have gone with some kW labels. They have 4 empty parking spots with no chargers which probably would have been good for a pair J1772 spots.

They need to upgrade them to NACS plugs as well.

[AmIReal]

8 hours ago, jrs2 said:

wasn't there a proposal for an apartment building over the loading dock behind there?

That is still in the plans.

Per GS, "includes a plan to add two residential towers totaling as many as 350 units". "The residential component is not part of the funding request"

https://www.growthspotter.com/2023/06/16/residential-towers-part-of-master-plan-for-dr-phillips-center-for-the-performing-arts/

 

 

[jgardnerucf]

9 hours ago, jrs2 said:

that pineapple sculpture in front of City Hall.

It's a towering ASPARAGUS!    C'mon man. Iol

[codypet]

3 hours ago, aent said:

They need to upgrade them to NACS plugs as well.

In their defense that news came out in the last three weeks or so.  They have realistically 2 years before they really HAVE to go to NACS.  I suspect the CCS lines will break somehow at some point before then.  So if they replace the broken ones with NACS, as they progress,  I suspect they'll be fine. 

In that time frame all the Novacharge L2s in the city will probably need to shift to NACS too.

 

[prahaboheme]

17 hours ago, jrs2 said:

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/dr-phillips-center-hoping-for-145-million-expansion

good report.  dunno.  The City is giving dpac in essence so they can become landlords to restauranteurs and bar owners, right?  and then they're smattering in some ramps and a canopy for a stage, thus cheapening the aesthetic of the smoked glass elegance of the facade.

I don't like it.  in theory, I like the idea, but design-wise, I'm not a fan.

I think since they can justify an elevated "covering" over pedestrians for shade, then why not partner with a developer to build a tower that's elevated ala Aventura Tower at Universal where 2/3 of it's first two levels are elevated and open-air underneath, kinda like Citicorp Center (off to the side (south side))...  and then charge them rent for being on the property as an income stream...or give them the money to develop the building themselves.  $145M?  Does everyone here realize what can be built for that kind of money?  How much did Citi Tower cost?

That's not smart money because none of that money goes towards a new hall, and that's where the big money comes in with these things.  Where's the big money items here justifying this cost?  Is the Tourist Development Tax now akin to The FED?

I'd rather see more mezzanine space extended out with those eateries with indoor/outdoor seating options on either side of the elevated ballroom- while figuring out whether to keep Magnolia active or just cut it off once and for all.  Or, don't cut Magnolia off and put those restaurant spaces as planned on either side with connectivity to the overhang area (for rain) and leave it at that.  But $145M-175M?  They didn't really say with detail what that other space is for along South Street side.

The South Street immersive space is likely a black box theater that can be used for smaller performances with a highly flexible layout.

$145 million doesn’t get you too far these days considering what they are trying to accomplish here.  Also, it’s unlikely they will be awarded the full amount, so might as well shoot high.

Considering just how much money has been thrown at I-Drive / OCCC causes over the years, it would be nice to see monies allocated to local projects that would have a big impact on downtown. Also, this is quite literally Orlando’s front lawn — it should have a more “elevated” design standard than a typical plaza.

To put this in context, Heritage Square construction was roughly $35 million (the plaza and the history center) in 2000, which would roughly equate to $62 million in 2023.  
Most agree that it was a major improvement and an asset to downtown Orlando .  Seneff Plaza can be that too if it gets the support to see the vision through.

Edited June 21, 2023 by prahaboheme

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

The South Street immersive space is likely a black box theater that can be used for smaller performances with a highly flexible layout.

$145 million doesn’t get you too far these days considering what they are trying to accomplish here.  Also, it’s unlikely they will be awarded the full amount, so might as well shoot high.

Considering just how much money has been thrown at I-Drive / OCCC causes over the years, it would be nice to see monies allocated to local projects that would have a big impact on downtown. Also, this is quite literally Orlando’s front lawn — it should have a more “elevated” design standard than a typical plaza.

To put this in context, Heritage Square construction was roughly $35 million (the plaza and the history center) in 2000, which would roughly equate to $62 million in 2023.  
Most agree that it was a major improvement and an asset to downtown Orlando .  Seneff Plaza can be that too if it gets the support to see the vision through.

Well, the vision keeps changing.  This is the 3rd or 4th plan thus far. The key for dpac was to complete the buildout, which they did.  In their second plan, I knew the contractor, developer, and hotel management company people that were going to develop the NW quadrant of the property but it never went through because of the Bust.  It was a terrible turn of events because that hotel was narrow, several levels tall, and was a perfect fusion project to tie Grand-Boh into the development.  And those players aren't necessarily players today in DTO.  But this "front lawn" business has muddled the original vision.  Lake Eola Park is the front lawn or used to be.

As for the plaza portion, personally like I stated in a prior post above, I think they need more mezzanine space inside.  Since they are planning to open up that jazz bar on the South Street side of the building half way to Rosalind with it's own door facing South Street, why not use money to build out all the way to the sidewalk so you can access the jazz club from within dpac after or before a show?  It's like the N/S Bldg at OCCC where you have to exit the South to walk to the North concourse.  If you reference one of the bird's eye views I posted from Citrus Center over the years, that's a lot of square footage that can be incorporated into the structure (or do Google Street View).  And it doesn't have to be five stories tall either; But you can't have a jazz club that dumps you onto the street like some bum.  All that grass/flower box space needs to be claimed or reclaimed first, IMHO.

I've taken the tour several times; I've been to plays; I've been there when there were four events occurring simultaneously; very impressive. I've been to OPO performances there and that new side needs to be expanded otherwise that jazz bar idea will never work in practicality.  And they can make it iconic in the same way Ralph Lauren off Michigan Avenue has their bar around the corner (Chicago, not Kissimmee).

Maybe they ditched the jazz bar idea; I don't know and prefer to devote resources to this instead.

The site plan shows too much wasted space along Anderson and South Streets. 

I mean, are they trying to emulate a small scale version of The Vessel at Hudson Yards but at only two levels high?

BTW, they do a crappy job of fundraising here (correction...they do just ok...). They need to get their butts to NYC and Chicago and market DTO to big money people with multiple homes (and homes in CFLA) that are looking to donate $$$ into some of these projects.  They have to network better.  The colleges do a much better job by tapping alumni; these entities need to tap these alumni associations.  And Buddy is a Gator and should be doing that or more of that.

[prahaboheme]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Well, the vision keeps changing.  This is the 3rd or 4th plan thus far. The key for dpac was to complete the buildout, which they did.  In their second plan, I knew the contractor, developer, and hotel management company people that were going to develop the NW quadrant of the property but it never went through because of the Bust.  It was a terrible turn of events because that hotel was narrow, several levels tall, and was a perfect fusion project to tie Grand-Boh into the development.  And those players aren't necessarily players today in DTO.  But this "front lawn" business has muddled the original vision.  Lake Eola Park is the front lawn or used to be.

As for the plaza portion, personally like I stated in a prior post above, I think they need more mezzanine space inside.  Since they are planning to open up that jazz bar on the South Street side of the building half way to Rosalind with it's own door facing South Street, why not use money to build out all the way to the sidewalk so you can access the jazz club from within dpac after or before a show?  It's like the N/S Bldg at OCCC where you have to exit the South to walk to the North concourse.  If you reference one of the bird's eye views I posted from Citrus Center over the years, that's a lot of square footage that can be incorporated into the structure (or do Google Street View).  And it doesn't have to be five stories tall either; But you can't have a jazz club that dumps you onto the street like some bum.  All that grass/flower box space needs to be claimed or reclaimed first, IMHO.

I've taken the tour several times; I've been to plays; I've been there when there were four events occurring simultaneously; very impressive. I've been to OPO performances there and that new side needs to be expanded otherwise that jazz bar idea will never work in practicality.  And they can make it iconic in the same way Ralph Lauren off Michigan Avenue has their bar around the corner (Chicago, not Kissimmee).

Maybe they ditched the jazz bar idea; I don't know and prefer to devote resources to this instead.

The site plan shows too much wasted space along Anderson and South Streets. 

I mean, are they trying to emulate a small scale version of The Vessel at Hudson Yards but at only two levels high?

BTW, they do a crappy job of fundraising here (correction...they do just ok...). They need to get their butts to NYC and Chicago and market DTO to big money people with multiple homes (and homes in CFLA) that are looking to donate $$$ into some of these projects.  They have to network better.  The colleges do a much better job by tapping alumni; these entities need to tap these alumni associations.  And Buddy is a Gator and should be doing that or more of that.

The Vessel is nothing but a symbol of corporate greed and excess -- largely derided by most people. 

I don't see the comparison at all in the proposal for DPAC.  I see a vision that nods to the climate of the region where it exists and attempts to create a grove-like element.  If anything, the design elements seem to lean more into the Lincoln Road Mall.

https://goo.gl/maps/MrTykZ2PK7Eff9RP7

Edited June 21, 2023 by prahaboheme

[JFW657]

The DPAC design proposal needs to show more trees.

And not palms. Shade trees. 

[jrs2]

22 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

The Vessel is nothing but a symbol of corporate greed and excess -- largely derided by most people. 

I don't see the comparison at all in the proposal for DPAC.  I see a vision that nods to the climate of the region where it exists and attempts to create a grove-like element.  If anything, the design elements seem to lean more into the Lincoln Road Mall.

https://goo.gl/maps/MrTykZ2PK7Eff9RP7

then what are downtown buildings in general?

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

then what are downtown buildings in general?

What does this even mean?