First Horizon Park - Home of the Nashville Sounds

[captainwjm]

Atlanta announces the Braves are moving to the suburbs?

The Atlanta Braves of Marietta?

[CenterHill]

Back to the Sounds (but maybe also relevant to the Braves' inexplicable move to the 'burbs), here's an interesting 2012 article on some of the ingredients for a successful downtown stadium.   Granted it's talking about major league parks (and really only comparing 2 of them), but at the end of the day success is about drawing fans to a venue, whether it's 40,000 for a big league game or 5000 for a minor league game.  

 

Based on the factors cited, I think Nashville has a lot more in common with Denver than Phoenix in terms of a distinctive downtown core and growing population density.    One thing the Sulphur Dell location doesn't have (yet) is immediate proximity to restaurants, bars and retail (if that's what is meant by "attractions" in the article), at least not in the way that, say, Bridgestone Arena has plenty of "attractions" right outside its door.    That may come to Sulphur Dell and Jefferson St eventually, and it will be important to get the residential and retail components of the project right.   

 

Anyway, interesting read.             

 

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2012/03/how-build-successful-downtown-stadium/1593/

[FrankNash]

The Germantown area is perfect for people to come together, have a beer, go to the game and maybe have dinner. Having a baseball park in the middle of a historic neighborhood is going to be a instant hit. Look how well Live on the green, Tomato arts festival, and October fest have done in the past couple of years. Yes games are  all summer but it will make for a great evening to hang in one of the most interesting places in Nashville. With a view!

[timmay143]

Found this today when someone posted this link on facebook.  About the transformation of the neighborhood where Turner Field is in ATL.  Amazing how large the parking is for the stadium!  Shows how the neighborhood use to be dense and connected.

 

http://homer.gsu.edu/blogs/library/2013/11/14/how-a-densely-populated-neighborhood-became-turner-field-a-map-essay/

[bwithers1]

The Germantown area is perfect for people to come together, have a beer, go to the game and maybe have dinner. Having a baseball park in the middle of a historic neighborhood is going to be a instant hit. Look how well Live on the green, Tomato arts festival, and October fest have done in the past couple of years. Yes games are  all summer but it will make for a great evening to hang in one of the most interesting places in Nashville. With a view!

Except that this proposal isn't in Germantown or in the middle of any historic neighborhood.

 

Live on the Green may be the best comparison out of the three that you mentioned. Tomato Arts Festival and Octoberfest/Germantown Street Festival (now 2 separate events) are literally held in the centers of neighborhood streets among existing buildings, not in a custom-built facility that is a few blocks away from any discernable neighborhood. North Capital or whatever they call it now is an area with some residential amid the government uses (not to mention the bail bonding companies behind the CJC), but is not really a "neighborhood," per se.

 

If the new Sulfer Dell were constructed inside or even right adjacent to Germantown, a la a mini Wrigley Field, that would be one thing. That would spur people to hang out in the neighborhood bars and restaurants that already exist on the perimeter of the hypothetical field.

 

But this proposal is a few blocks from Germantown, and if most patrons park at the stadium garage, they will likely also eat/drink at whatever bars/restaurants are constructed inside the field moreso than they would park at the field, then walk several blocks to City House or something, then walk back to their cars. Really the closest restaurant to the new Sulfur Dell proposal is the Stock-Yard Steakhouse. They might benefit quite a bit.  But I'm not sure how many Sounds fans are going to spring $100/person for their whole families to eat dinner before or after a game.

 

I can see some benefit for Germantown businesses, assuming that a strange convergence of two counter-intuitive trends occurs: (1) that most baseball patrons park in the stadium garage and do not take up all of the free neighborhood parking that would otherwise be used by the Germatown residents or the Germantown restaurants' actual customers, and (2) that those patons then decide to walk a few blocks on up to Germantown for dinner before returning to their cars a few blocks south.  Nashvillians are not known for walking much of anywhere.

 

As for the Live on the Green comparison, the main difference is that Live on the Green is at the center of downtown, and many people can either just stay late from work and go to Live on the Green, or they can easily get there via public transportation (which does happen!). The new Sulfur Dell stadium proposal is kind of centrally located, but it is located along a narrow street grid with strange one-way striping that is about to get even more strange with the blocking of 4th Ave North. So 3rd Ave and 5th Ave will require some traffic studies to determine how best to get a bunch of people in and out of there at one time.

 

Again, I think that all of these challenges can be overcome, but just plopping a stadium in the center of some dead blocks won't necessarily on its own generate a vibrant mixed-use neighborhood surrounding that stadium. LP Field proved that point.

Edited November 15, 2013 by bwithers1

[MLBrumby]

I think you are right about gameday behavior of the fans. However, if a spot is located adjacent to the park like the bars/pubs/restaurants surrounding Great American ballpark, there are notable spikes in business.  It bears mentioning that those places have apartments above them, and they are located on the edge of a resurgent downtown. It's why I believe the developers/Sounds intend to own and run the businesses in the commercial buildings adjacent to the park.  But that is MLB... so I think a better comparison is to the Chattanooga Lookouts.  I can tell you that the businesses at the foot of ATT field see a rise, but it's not huge.  Most of the 3500-7000 who go to the game intend to get beer, dogs, nachos etc. at the park. 

Edited November 15, 2013 by MLBrumby

[FrankNash]

IMO the Germantown residence will be the biggest winners of a stadium located on the edge of said neighborhood. A ballpark within walking distance will be a amenity that can't be matched by any other hood in town. This along with the bicentenial mall and farmers market will be a salable point for even more restaurants and rooftops. Living downtown would be the best location if you want to be near all three places, but as far as a true community sport scene, that will go to our friends in G-town. Top of the list on any real estate ad for sure!

[bhibbs]

IMO the Germantown residence will be the biggest winners of a stadium located on the edge of said neighborhood. A ballpark within walking distance will be a amenity that can't be matched by any other hood in town. This along with the bicentenial mall and farmers market will be a salable point for even more restaurants and rooftops. Living downtown would be the best location if you want to be near all three places, but as far as a true community sport scene, that will go to our friends in G-town. Top of the list on any real estate ad for sure!

agreed.

[CenterHill]

It's good that the city's funding of the stadium is conditioned on private investment in adjoining mixed use developments. Perhaps a lesson learned from LP Field which had no such requirements and remains after 10 years surrounded by...nothing. Private development does not automatically follow sports venues, especially ones built in large vacant areas, which is often the case. Cities have to provide incentives for the initial round of development and if done properly, more will follow.

I agree that Germantown stands to benefit from the Sulphur Dell proposal. I don't really see it so much as creating a "link" with downtown, to use the mayor's words. There are still significant gaps - both topographical and man made - between Germantown and, say, the 2nd Ave/Broadway venues. But the ball park development could be good for Germantown itself.

The most important part of it may be what happens along Jefferson St. between 3rd and 5th. I think Vista Germantown missed an opportunity by not including restaurant or retail space on Jefferson, in addition to the Silo space on Madison. My hope is that the Sulphur Dell project includes multiple storefronts along Jefferson, as well as the interior streets, whichever ones remain. And of course there's great potential with the Geist property on Jefferson.

[built_ford_tough]

Take a look at Huntington Park in Columbus as well if you want to see a AAA ballpark done well and placed in a great area. There's a reason the Clippers had, I believe, the highest attendance in AAA this year.

[MLBrumby]

Take a look at Huntington Park in Columbus as well if you want to see a AAA ballpark done well and placed in a great area. There's a reason the Clippers had, I believe, the highest attendance in AAA this year.

 

I agree with you that the ballpark plays a big role in drawing the crowds.  Done will and placed well, the Sounds could see a sizeable bump in their attendance, especially when you consider that Greer was built for (what?) 10K, at a time when Nashville was half the size it is now.  Heck, Chattanooga does a great job with a ballpark 2/3 that size.

[nashvillwill]

The sounds were also the only game in town at that time (as is Chatanooga's team today). I'm not saying the sounds won't see a bump in attendance with a new stadium (I think they most certainly will), but there is definitely something to these ratios we keep seeing of population/GDP/team inventory.

[nashvillwill]

I can't read the article (behind the paywall), but the title sounds intriguing;

http://nashvillepost.com/news/2013/11/15/ballpark_area_apartment_building_could_feature_observation_deck

[CenterHill]

There was a reference to Huntington Park in Columbus above.    Certainly a great looking ball park and in what looks like similar proximity to the downtown business district.      There are some low rise brick buildings visible beyond center field in the photo below.  I'm not familiar with downtown Columbus and am wondering how much, if any, of that was new construction post-ball park.     

 

The "Power Pavilion" building in left field may be similar to the observation deck idea in the Post article.   a la Wrigley

 

 

[bwithers1]

In all honestly, the present location of the proposed Sounds Stadium seems to me to be less like the Columbus park above and more like 5/3rd Field in my hometown of Dayton, OH, which is in a former industrial brownfield area two blocks outside of downtown. And it is a great field and is in an area that is revitalizing thanks in part to the removal of several abandoned industrial buildings and the complete renovation of some others. The Dayton Dragons have sold out every game since the 5/3rd Field opened. Then again, the Dragons are the only thing going in terms of sports in Dayton, other than the University of Dayton and Wright State teams. In that sense, the Dragons are to Dayton today what the Sounds were to Nashville in the mid-20th Century.

 

I think that the Sounds will do well at the new ballpark, but I tend to agree with earlier professional economic analysis suggesting that the local population's disposable sports dollars are already stretched thin by the Titans and the Predators. At least the Titans and the Predators games draw pretty significant fan bases to Nashville from other areas when their teams are playing the Titans and Preds. I can't see the Sounds drawing anything close to that kind of out-of-town crowd (obviously), so I see the economic upside to the city's sales tax and and other tax bases as being quite a bit more muted for this particular sports venue. Mayor Dean even agreed publicly that the new ballpark will speed up development in the North Capital that would already have happened in the near future anyway.

[RandomHero]

In all honestly, the present location of the proposed Sounds Stadium seems to me to be less like the Columbus park above and more like 5/3rd Field in my hometown of Dayton, OH, which is in a former industrial brownfield area two blocks outside of downtown. And it is a great field and is in an area that is revitalizing thanks in part to the removal of several abandoned industrial buildings and the complete renovation of some others. The Dayton Dragons have sold out every game since the 5/3rd Field opened. Then again, the Dragons are the only thing going in terms of sports in Dayton, other than the University of Dayton and Wright State teams. In that sense, the Dragons are to Dayton today what the Sounds were to Nashville in the mid-20th Century.

 

I think that the Sounds will do well at the new ballpark, but I tend to agree with earlier professional economic analysis suggesting that the local population's disposable sports dollars are already stretched thin by the Titans and the Predators. At least the Titans and the Predators games draw pretty significant fan bases to Nashville from other areas when their teams are playing the Titans and Preds. I can't see the Sounds drawing anything close to that kind of out-of-town crowd (obviously), so I see the economic upside to the city's sales tax and and other tax bases as being quite a bit more muted for this particular sports venue. Mayor Dean even agreed publicly that the new ballpark will speed up development in the North Capital that would already have happened in the near future anyway.

 

Some good points. Just as a casual observer I think the "walkability" factor and the "being right downtown" angle have been overplayed a little bit here. The stadium is a 20 minute walk from lower broad. 45 minute walk from 5 points and the gulch. I think a lot of the financial success of the project will depend on the development of the North downtown/Capitol area as a whole. Although I think this will spur that along so I probably like it more so for that reason than actually thinking it's an ideal place for Sounds baseball. 

 

If you really wanted to tie the stadium into the city I still think the thermal site is the way to go. It could be built with other public space that could tie Bridgestone-Broadway-Riverfront-SoBro-Rolling Mill Hill all together and be a really exciting project. 

Edited November 19, 2013 by RandomHero

[UTgrad09]

I don't think anyone has any illusions of people frequenting downtown establishments before or after a game. In fact, the new location would be just 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile closer to Lower Broad than the present location (the difference would be what you have to walk through to get there).

 

However, I think that this location is far better poised to have bars and restaurants spring up around it than the present location. That is the key point. Downtown is expanding southward to SoBro, but the gap between KVB and Lafayette will take a while...and even longer between Lafayette/I-40 and the area to where Greer is. If you were to renovate or build a new stadium on the Greer site, I doubt you would see much, if any, accompanying development. But the north side is hot. Germantown is on fire, and Hope Gardens seems to be doing fine...there's a little bit of stuff in the North Capitol area already east of 4th. It's an area poised for redevelopment...and yes, I agree, it is inevitable, with or without the ballpark. But this is an opportunity to put a ballpark in an up and coming area, where if you wait, the opportunity might not be there in the future. You already have something to work with in the Germantown area as far as bars/restaurants...plus the Farmer's Market. I don't know how many state workers attend games, but it would also be convenient for them. 

 

Overall, it's a better situation than the current site, no matter how they are marketing it.

[MLBrumby]

Metro Council has given this initial approval, from the Tennessean...  http://www.tennessean.com/article/20131119/NEWS0202/311190108/Metro-Council-gives-Nashville-Sounds-stadium-proposal-initial-approval-after-brief-heated-exchange?odyssey=mod%7Cbreaking%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE&nclick_check=1

[bwithers1]

 

If you really wanted to tie the stadium into the city I still think the thermal site is the way to go. It could be built with other public space that could tie Bridgestone-Broadway-Riverfront-SoBro-Rolling Mill Hill all together and be a really exciting project. 

This kind of connection is what I was getting at in differentiating the North Capital spot from Huntington Park in Columbus. In Columbus, Huntington Park is one of three sports venues in the Arena District, and that district also includes the North Market (like our farmer's market, but more robust and indoors like a small version of Philly's Reading Terminal Market), the Convention Center, several hotels, and "the Cap." Columbus's Arena District is actually the site of a former penitentiary that was demolished and turned into a master planned community similar to Nashville's Gulch, and it kind of bridges downtown Columbus and Short North. So to make a comparison between Huntington Park and the new Sounds stadium proposal, you would have to envision the Gulch as containing or being adjacent to LP Field, Bridgestone and the new Sounds Stadium, plus the Music City Center and accompanying hotels.

 

I am OK with the North Capital location, but I, too, was disappointed when the original proposal for the Thermal Plant site fell through. We could have had LP Field/Cumberland Park, a baseball stadium at Thermal (and couldn't the baseball park also serve as an amphiteatre?), and Bridgestone all within one more or less straight shot.

 

To my mind, the challenge with the North Capital location is that (1) you want to surround the park with new development but (2) you don't want to cut off the park entirely from the surrounding streets. I'm a little bit worried about the latter if there is a bunch of stuff filling in those gaps on either side of the stadium. Part of what makes Wrigley such an experience is that the sidelines are more or less against the streets, and even the construction of the sports clubs across the streets means that when you walk down Sheffield or Waveland Avenues, it's like you are part of the game. For the Sounds stadium proposal renderings, I see that happening along the Music City Bikeway, but I'm not so sure about 5th or 3rd Avenues.

 

Speaking of the Music City Bikeway, I do hope that the fountain near 4th Ave is kept when the bikeway is widened.

[smeagolsfree]

Base ball stadium pases second reading. Next vote in a special session next Tuesday.

[bwithers1]

Base ball stadium pases second reading. Next vote in a special session next Tuesday.

 I was at this council meeting to speak on behalf of three of the rezoning things on public hearing (beer sales variance for the Japanese Pub at Walden, Porter/Cahal Mixed Use development, and Eastwood conservation overlay expansion on Eastland).  The meeting lasted three hours (!) and was almost totally consumed by debates about the ballpark proposal.  There were about five separate bills related to the ballpark, such as "Phillips-Jackson Plan Amendment 5" (the land swap), a couple of different pieces about the financing, and a debate about the portion of the land swap that includes the Nashville School of the Arts property on Foster Ave.  There was lots and lots of commentary about how rushed this proposal is, and I found myself in agreement with several councilmembers with whom I usually differ on that particular aspect.  But I was satisfied that at least there was a healthy debate. 

 

One thing of note to us on this board was the fact that several councilmembers rerenced West End Summit during the debate as being a dead deal.  They were expressing hesitation about the city committing to bonds to finance the ball park based on the expectation of surrounding development that may or may not happen.  West End Summit came up two or three times as an example, and was specifically cited by Charlie Tygard, who pointed out that the development had huge tenants including HCA and the Sara Cannon Research Center and still fell through.

[smeagolsfree]

I am hearing about a new location for the two HCA entities. Also the ICH Nashville is no longer on the Intercontinental site. Guess they got tired of waiting on ASP for 6 to 8 years after they signed the agreement for him to get it out of ground. Metro needs to start fining ASP & Company a $1000 a day for a hole in the ground. That may move him to sale the site sooner rather than later.

[MLBrumby]

I totally agree that ASP should be fined for the hole. What a disgrace and a public nuisance.

[nashvylle]

I hate the hole, but I would rather have that than a surface parking lot, or worse, more real estate for Lea Beaman...

[samsonh]

I have a lot of qualms about this project. I am not sure this is the best location for the stadium, and I believe we need to require more skin from the Sounds ownership group. Also kind of seems like we are doing what Nashville has done before, which is building a large capital project on the cheap.