Misc. Uptown Projects/News

[RANYC]

19 hours ago, KJHburg said:

It will be redeveloped but not in this current environment of high building costs, high interest rates.  They are land banking it for now.  

Someone convince me this is not about to be a surface parking lot for the next many years.

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Someone convince me this is not about to be a surface parking lot for the next many years.

No they are doing some upgrades to keep it as a public parking deck until they redevelop it at some time in the future.  They would not tear down a parking deck to do surface parking.  they are just planning on holding this deck for some unknown period until they redevelop it.  

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

No they are doing some upgrades to keep it as a public parking deck until they redevelop it at some time in the future.  They would not tear down a parking deck to do surface parking.  they are just planning on holding this deck for some unknown period until they redevelop it.  

I’m sorry, it may not have been clear but I’m referring to the demolition adjacent to the convention center, not the mint street garage.

[QCxpat]

Today 11:15 a.m.

Edited July 24, 2023 by QCxpat

[KJHburg]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

I’m sorry, it may not have been clear but I’m referring to the demolition adjacent to the convention center, not the mint street garage.

the Duke Energy data center site on S College?  they are clearing it as part of the sale and land swap with city.  The city and convention center authority  is buying some of the land and the rest will be developed maybe into a hotel apartment tower.  No plans have been announced but as a part of the land swap the building needed to be demolished. 

 

parking deck rising for new apartments right outside the loop at 12th  and N Tryon  apartments will wrap this deck.  Silver Hills is the developer. 

 

[carolinaboy]

Any updates/pictures of the Inlivian 8 floor apartment building  in uptown?

[KJHburg]

University of Toronto study on recoveries of downtowns and Charlotte is sorta middle of the road.  Better than Nashville and Raleigh but not as good as others.

https://downtownrecovery.com/charts/rankings

based on cell phone usage. 

Maps they used for their "downtown study"  for Charlotte mainly inside the 277 loop 

https://downtownrecovery.com/downtown_definitions.pdf

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

University of Toronto study on recoveries of downtowns and Charlotte is sorta middle of the road.  Better than Nashville and Raleigh but not as good as others.

https://downtownrecovery.com/charts/rankings

based on cell phone usage. 

Maps they used for their "downtown study"  for Charlotte mainly inside the 277 loop 

https://downtownrecovery.com/downtown_definitions.pdf

I'm loathe to put much stock in this study.  Just another faraway institution attempting to sway sentiment by utilizing its most recently acquired "big data" set, in this case, cell phone usage to impute vibrancy and momentum on downtowns.  I needn't look farther than Jacksonville, FL.  Its downtown was a cesspool pre-pandemic, and now it's just a wasteland.  By the way, "wasteland" happens to be a vast improvement over cesspool, but be advised not to conflate improvement and desirability.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by RANYC

[atlrvr]

Cellphone usage data is pretty robust data, and the way the top marketers of this data aggregate and extrapolate is pretty solid (IMO) and I'm a card carrying Luddite.  Even if someone takes issue with using is for comparison purposes, I guarantee many of the largest allocators of capital out there are absolutely using this data in their decisioning, so ignoring the approach/results would be detrimental to understanding the way real estate decisions are made (this applies to financers, developers, and tenants).

Edit:  After looking at the maps, if I had to take any issue with the study, it's the use of Zip Codes as the definition of downtowns, and opposed to something a bit more customized.  The general concept and data I think is totally fine.

[RANYC]

10 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

Cellphone usage data is pretty robust data, and the way the top marketers of this data aggregate and extrapolate is pretty solid (IMO) and I'm a card carrying Luddite.  Even if someone takes issue with using is for comparison purposes, I guarantee many of the largest allocators of capital out there are absolutely using this data in their decisioning, so ignoring the approach/results would be detrimental to understanding the way real estate decisions are made (this applies to financers, developers, and tenants).

Never said to ignore it.  Very well aware of cell phone data and a host of other "big" or "alt" data panels being used in investment decision-making, specifically by hedge funds.  Also very plugged in to big data owners looking to monetize data they're sitting on by selling it to university research teams looking to garner headlines and HFs looking to market their differentiated investing approaches.  Sure, it's a data-set out there that should be one of several inputs into research assertions, but such data are wisely used in answering narrowly defined questions or to substantiate narrowly-defined hypotheses.  Using it to then visualize a city ranking is just another example of big data abusage, not usage.

Edited August 3, 2023 by RANYC

[15895]

I’ll add Jacksonville to cities UP CLT loves to hate on: Raleigh, Atlanta, Houston & Jacksonville.

 

 

[kermit]

^ well, Jacksonville does suck to an unusual degree.

[15895]

2 minutes ago, kermit said:

^ well, Jacksonville does suck to an unusual degree.

I never been so I’ll take y’all’s word that Jacksonville is a *checks notes* a waste land which is better than a cess pool of what it previously was. 

Sounds like a terrible area. 

[kermit]

^ it is the epicenter of that unmistakable North Florida mildew smell

it also sits in the cultural gap that separates decent Southern food from pretty good Caribbean food — Jacksonville has neither

[RANYC]

22 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I’ll add Jacksonville to cities UP CLT loves to hate on: Raleigh, Atlanta, Houston & Jacksonville.

 

 

Point of clarification.  Jacksonville the city is like 875 square miles.  It's quite lovely in parts.  Tons of land has been preserved out of development.  Beautiful beach communities.  An immensity of inland waterways, literally a fisherman's paradise.  Nearly 1000 dolphins traverse a segment of the Trout river near the Jacksonville Zoo each day.  Oh yes, by the way, within that 875 square mile expanse, there's a zoo.  Not even sure I should call a place claiming 875 square miles a city...more like the Jacksonville region.

My criticism is directed at its downtown.  It's awful.  Yes, it sits along the banks of the northbound St. Johns River, one of the few northbound waterways in the world and in a peer group with the Nile in that respect, but the downtown is simply terrible, moribund, fetid at times, full of false starts and broken promises and shattered dreams.

Edited August 3, 2023 by RANYC

[go_vertical]

30 minutes ago, kermit said:

^ it is the epicenter of that unmistakable North Florida mildew smell

Not sure if they're still there and operating, but there used to be a few paper mills dotted around the area too.

 

I'm from Orlando and have lived here since the mid '90s so I have made the drive back and forth countless times.  There are quite a few exits along 95 on both sides leading into/out of downtown Jacksonville where I have felt extremely sketched out due to the almost apocalyptic environment or the high number of people who clearly need help (mental issues/substance abuse) just milling about.  I'm certainly not the toughest person in the world, but I feel like I can handle myself in a rough area and know how not to present myself to others as a mark.  There has been a few times in that city where I've gotten off an exit for gas or a leg stretch and immediately thought "Get the hell outta here".

[KJHburg]

in terms of this cell phone usage study I think you can't really argue with it unless you are talking about the maps they used.  It is what it is.  For example in Raleigh  they seem to use the Fayetteville St corridor and lots of points south and east outside the core but not what Downtown Raleigh Association considers their downtown core which goes over Glenwood and further north than that map showed.  It might have been a zip code map as well.  

I hate to even mention Jax as it gets this thread off track but they did not include the south bank of the St Johns River where there is a good bit of activity and high rises and it would be considered by locals as part of downtown.   

anyway we all know uptown Charlotte is extremely light on Fridays and to a certain extent on Mondays.  Now I think Truist just required more in office time starting June 30 after this study was done.  It would be interesting to compare this a year from now.    Weekends seem as busy as ever in uptown most weekends but the work week when the most people are there are still light some days.  

[Urban Cowboy]

Don't trash Jacksonville.

Downtown has always been sleepy and the burbs are truly uninspiring. But spend time in Avondale, Riverside, or Ortega. Five Points, Murray Hill or San Marco. See the potential in Springfield. The community in Neptune, Atlantic, and Jax Beach. Golf of Ponte Vedra. The beauty of Hugenot, Little Talbot, or the St. Johns. The marshes of the Timucuan. The shrimp in Mayport. I could go on... but Jacksonville has culture, food, and frankly way more to do than Charlotte - simply because of its rivers, marshes, and beaches. The downtown sucks but I can assure its not the defining feature of Jacksonville - and if you spent any time there you would quickly enjoy what it does have to offer.  The shipyards and brooklyn areas are both hopefully going to be catalysts for downtown. And if they ever get their act together Jacksonville's downtown has the opportunity to be incredible, and the area is a unique blend of deep south and Florida - with french, english, and spanish influence. Does it compare to Charlotte? No. But jokes about pulp mills and mildew smells are about as out-of-date and lazy as they come.  

Also - It's home to YOUR next super bowl champions, THE Jacksonville Jaguars. DUUUUUUUVAAAALLLLL!

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

in terms of this cell phone usage study I think you can't really argue with it unless you are talking about the maps they used.  It is what it is.  For example in Raleigh  they seem to use the Fayetteville St corridor and lots of points south and east outside the core but not what Downtown Raleigh Association considers their downtown core which goes over Glenwood and further north than that map showed.  It might have been a zip code map as well.  

I hate to even mention Jax as it gets this thread off track but they did not include the south bank of the St Johns River where there is a good bit of activity and high rises and it would be considered by locals as part of downtown.   

anyway we all know uptown Charlotte is extremely light on Fridays and to a certain extent on Mondays.  Now I think Truist just required more in office time starting June 30 after this study was done.  It would be interesting to compare this a year from now.    Weekends seem as busy as ever in uptown most weekends but the work week when the most people are there are still light some days.  

So many of these cities were so varied in their health and vitality, pre-pandemic, that simply looking at a recovery metric based on cell phone usage data doesn't give the full story on their appeal or vitality or momentum.  The study is indexing their recovery, so that if a city were at rock bottom pre-pandemic and is still at rock bottom, it does well in the ranking.  On the other hand, a city that was flourishing pre-pandemic had farther to fall given a once in a century negative event.  Now, that city will have a long way to travel to back to its pre-pandemic heights, but it's still way better than the rock bottom places.  Again, I get what they're trying to do, I just personally find it of little value.

I suppose he could be giving a biased account, but our own Tourism Head said that CLT's uptown tourism figures are through the roof this year backed by data on hotel stays, restaurant revenue and venue visitor counts.  That's much more insightful to me about CLT's real positioning, now and for the near future.  What I glean is that uptown CLT has made major strides in diversifying its appeal versus 2019, and once the office market improves and WFH gives way to WFO again, we'll see that we're in a much stronger position than we were.

Edited August 4, 2023 by RANYC

[KJHburg]

the challenges of converting office towers to residential.  But it can be done and hopefully the 2 Wells Fargo tower in uptown can be our first big conversion.  We have had 230 South Tryon a 1970s office building converted to condos. 

Check out what Calgary is doing and some examples from LA

https://www.commercialsearch.com/news/the-tricky-task-of-office-to-residential-conversions/?

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

the challenges of converting office towers to residential.  But it can be done and hopefully the 2 Wells Fargo tower in uptown can be our first big conversion.  We have had 230 South Tryon a 1970s office building converted to condos. 

Check out what Calgary is doing and some examples from LA

https://www.commercialsearch.com/news/the-tricky-task-of-office-to-residential-conversions/?

I thought out first big conversion will be the old Duke Energy Bldg.  Is that still imminent?

[KJHburg]

2 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I thought out first big conversion will be the old Duke Energy Bldg.  Is that still imminent?

forgot about that one and that is further along.  Yes that is the first one of recent and then hopefully the 2 WFC 

all these conversions will add residents and more life to uptown.  

[Matthew.Brendan]

2 WFC would be an awesome candidate honestly. Great location if I was going to live uptown.

[KJHburg]

3 hours ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

2 WFC would be an awesome candidate honestly. Great location if I was going to live uptown.

I agree as Wells Fargo as owner inherited this from their predecessor Wachovia who inherited it from First Union should offer it at a fair price with restrictions for the main tower to be residential and include X % for affordable apartments.  That would be a great legacy to the city. the region and NC  and should get kudos to Wells Fargo.  Price it below market value with some restrictions is my idea as they have no money really in it as when Wells bought Wachovia they got it for free basically.  as for the older shorter office tower and rest of the block a private developer could do what they want.  This is what I would do if I was the Wells real estate team leader.  

[RANYC]

This afternoon (Saturday), I had the misfortune of watching 2 families walking up College Street near 6th shield their kids' eyes as this guy with a severe disability in his walk proceeded to hug himself up against the Jimmy Johns wall while seemingly staring back at the families, unzip his plans, and at that point I drove past and didn't even want to see what was going to happen next.