Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[CltFlyer]

85 has much more legitimate interstate and intercity traffic volume.   77 congestion is more illegitimate commuters from suburban bedroom communities into the city.  This is not what interstate infrastructure was intended for and is a very poor use of resources and a very bad way to design cities.   To break the bad habit of commuting in a single occupancy vehicle 30-40 miles to a workplace instead of behaving like normal urban citizens and living and contributing to the community in which you work, they must have innovative designs to help keep the infrastructure flowing.   

 

Interstates that are stop and go carry significantly less traffic.

 

If you want a freeway to flow smoothly and get to your destination on time, but it is filled with high vehicle miles traveled, single-occupancy vehicle commuters, then you need HOV and HOT lanes to allow buses, carpoolers, and people willing to pay indulgences for their sins to flow and get out of the general purpose lanes.  

 

 

I roll my eyes at every person crying for free lanes on 77.   Chances are high that your behavior in life is part of the problem and you are wasting very very expensive infrastructure.      And just because 85 also has this bad behavior means they should be adding HOT/HOV lanes to that road and not that 77 should be all general purpose lanes requiring no change in bad commuting habits.     

 

If I had my way, they would be HOS lanes (High Occupancy or Spanking) where these selfish brats must get out and pay with a spanking for wasting everyone's time and money. 

I will admit, last summer I was one of the "illegitimate" commuters that you are referring to.  I was doing an internship at the Charlotte-North lake exit, and chose to drive the make the 50 mile drive from my home in Davie county instead of renting an apartment closer.  However, If I were actually working full time I would have lived much closer to Charlotte.  

 

While many may be doing this commute full time.  There is still a good amount that simply has to go this way to get to the airport or are traveling through Charlotte with no intention of stopping in Charlotte.  This adds to good a amount of the traffic you are speaking of, and it seems unfair to punish the people who live north of Charlotte simply because they chose to live on the 77 corridor instead of the 85 corridor.  

 

Just because "illegitimate" commuters may be causing the issue, doesn't mean that traffic on I 77 north of Charlotte isn't an issue that needs to be fixed, and I don't believe that HOT lanes will legitimately fix the issue.

 

 

While 4 all purpose lanes may not be necessary, I think just adding a 3rd all purpose lane through Mooresville could help alleviate many of the problems.  

 

I am moving out of the area for my new job, so this issue will not affect me in the near future.  This is just my honest opinion. 

Edited May 30, 2015 by CltFlyer

[southslider]

I think every expressway within Mecklenburg should have a minimum of three free lanes and a minimum of one high-occupancy/tolled lane. On 85, this means converting one of the 4 free lanes. On 485, this means holding the unopened 4th lane for a HOT lane. On 74, this means converting the bus way to HOT. And on 77N, this means building both one more free lane to Exit 28, plus a HOT lane to Exit 36.

[CltFlyer]

Off topic but interesting to note.

 

I-75 is at least 3 lanes throughout the entire state of Georgia.  I understand I-75 is a huge transit point for anyone going to the Orlando and Tampa areas, but their are some points in South Georgia that are extremely rural and I-75 remains 3 lanes.  It quickly goes back to 2 lanes whenever you enter Tennessee or Florida.  This may have been a massive waste of money by the state of Georgia, but its worthy to note.

[allthingsplanes]

I feel the need to respond to a few of the things said in previous posts.

1) Regarding I-77 as compared to I-85 and the types of traffic.  I would strongly argue against the idea that 85 has more "legitimate" interstate traffic than 77 does.  Maybe between Charlotte and other cities in NC.  However, for anyone who drives 77 on a regular basis, you routinely see licence plates from NY, PA, OH, WV, and VA.  I believe that 77 is one of the most used routes for people going from the north/northeast down to Florida.  Even cars from Canada are seen regularly.  I imagine some people who could go down 95 still go 77 to avoid the DC and Richmond areas.  So yes, there are a lot of commuters on 77 but there are a ton of travelers as well.

2) I am personally offended by some of the rhetoric around commuters.  I drove 77 daily for 6 years up until this year when I switched jobs.  By myself.  However, in my particular situation I didn't have any other choice.  My wife got a job in Rock Hill and I was working in Davidson.  We chose a living location that was closest to the center for both of us - North Charlotte.  So we were both commuting.  Unfortunately, there wasn't anyone around us who was making that same drive, so carpooling was not an option.  The bus would have been extremely inconvenient.  I was really hoping the Red Line would have been able to come and would have ridden it regularly.  I would also say there are a ton of reasons people live where they do, even if it means they have a commute.  So don't bemoan all commuters.

3) Like I was doing, there are a lot of reverse commuters on 77.  With Lowe's and Ingersoll Rand, along with other businesses, there are a lot of people who live in Charlotte or south Huntersville and drive north in the mornings.

 

Finally, I am in favor of the HOT lanes on 77.  The 2 "free" lanes that are present now will continue to be available for those who don't want to pay.  So it's not like there will be less free lanes (except further south where traffic isn't an issue).  Also, if we don't build it this way, it likely won't happen for a long time  Is that better?

[southslider]

The argument that HOT lanes will speed up 77 construction is arbitrary.

The MPO only ever scored widening small pieces, resulting in a lower ranking.

The NCDOT will end up contributing more on the Brookshire to Mooresville HOT lanes as their share than the cost of adding one lane each direction from Huntersville to Mooresville.

The section between 85 and 485 never has congestion unless there is an incident, and this is before 485 has even opened.

The congestion south of 85 on 77 is largely contributed to the obsolete 85 interchange, which will be unchanged for both 77 and 85 commuters outside the toll lanes only on 77.

The biggest contributor to PM congestion on 77 North is the neckdown past 485, and this is before 485 even opens.

The biggest contributor to AM congestion on 77 South is the merging of traffic from exits 25 and 23, and yet ramp metering will likely be restricted by Cintas, or NCDOT will owe damages.

The most consistent congestion between Exits 23 and 25 will have no way to even move in or out of the new HOT lanes, and that includes CATS, which has a major park and ride at each exit.

[jednc]

The argument that HOT lanes will speed up 77 construction is arbitrary.

The MPO only ever scored widening small pieces, resulting in a lower ranking.

The NCDOT will end up contributing more on the Brookshire to Mooresville HOT lanes as their share than the cost of adding one lane each direction from Huntersville to Mooresville.

The section between 85 and 485 never has congestion unless there is an incident, and this is before 485 has even opened.

The congestion south of 85 on 77 is largely contributed to the obsolete 85 interchange, which will be unchanged for both 77 and 85 commuters outside the toll lanes only on 77.

The biggest contributor to PM congestion on 77 North is the neckdown past 485, and this is before 485 even opens.

The biggest contributor to AM congestion on 77 South is the merging of traffic from exits 25 and 23, and yet ramp metering will likely be restricted by Cintas, or NCDOT will owe damages.

The most consistent congestion between Exits 23 and 25 will have no way to even move in or out of the new HOT lanes, and that includes CATS, which has a major park and ride at each exit.

Well said.

[grodney]

Honestly, I really want to do a 64 mile race... Am I the only one?

 

The first 2 cars on the new leg will be a $330K Aston Martin and a $170K Maserati.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article23123670.html

[tozmervo]

I think they could afford the toll lanes.

[archiham04]

I don't know, the 900 million dollar cost might cut into their second home budget

[SentioVenia]

Aah, the ol' Reddit switcheroo.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Google Maps is already showing the completed outer belt.

[AuLukey]

Google Maps is already showing the completed outer belt.

They had it down to almost the minute. I mapped a drive to north lake from concord mills at 12pm and then again at 130pm yesterday and it made a decent difference in travel time (I think somewhere in the neighborhood of a fifteen minute savings.) I can see that savings being much larger during rush hour. I guess we'll find out on Monday what effect this has on 77N

[dubone]

I had to roll my eyes at all the people on my facebook newsfeed that drove the whole circle in celebration.   It is a symbolic victory, but now the real challenges for the city begin: keeping the infrastructure and connectivity between outside the loop and the central part of the city open for densifying.   

 

Bypassing a city is fine, and satellite cities and suburbs will never go away in this country, but here is hoping we avoid being a donut city where all the businesses go to Ballantyne.  

[jednc]

I for one couldn't be happier the new section is open. I've lived here for 27 years. This road has always been under construction. I'm glad it's complete.

[cltbwimob]

I had to roll my eyes at all the people on my facebook newsfeed that drove the whole circle in celebration.   It is a symbolic victory, but now the real challenges for the city begin: keeping the infrastructure and connectivity between outside the loop and the central part of the city open for densifying.   

 

Bypassing a city is fine, and satellite cities and suburbs will never go away in this country, but here is hoping we avoid being a donut city where all the businesses go to Ballantyne.  

Haha, I thought about driving down from Virginia to do a victory lap around the whole thing.  In all seriousness, you make good points, but the damn thing has been under construction since I was four years old.  Happy to see it done so we can move on to more pressing matters.

[grodney]

485 instead of 85 is 0.8 miles longer:

 

 

485 instead of 77 is 4.5 miles longer:

 

**According to google maps.

Edited June 8, 2015 by grodney

[dcharlotte]

I had to roll my eyes at all the people on my facebook newsfeed that drove the whole circle in celebration.   It is a symbolic victory, but now the real challenges for the city begin: keeping the infrastructure and connectivity between outside the loop and the central part of the city open for densifying.   

 

Bypassing a city is fine, and satellite cities and suburbs will never go away in this country, but here is hoping we avoid being a donut city where all the businesses go to Ballantyne.  

 

I think this point is more true than ever.. 4 new lanes of capacity were just added (in two directions) so people can commute from Concord to the new office park that will be built near North Lake and from the lake over to University City. If these people use I-77 and I-85 to get to the beltway you'll see very heavy traffic leading up to the loop and much lighter traffic after as everyone tries to squeeze through the line. The real push now should be to focus even more on infrastructure projects in the city and stop wasting time trying to endlessly widen roads in the suburbs. 

[dubone]

Absolutely.  There is also an odd psychological element to circles around cities.   For most people, it seems to become this almost magical road.   Like a friend of mine living in Matthews and having a commuting change to now be near uptown.  He literally plans now to use 485 from Matthews all the way around to Brookshire "to avoid Independence".   So a 14mi commute would be 38mi on 485.    

 

I'm sure once he actually does it or looks at the difference in Google, he will change his mind, but I think that fact is true of many people.   They assume a ride around the loop will be faster than the direct route for some reason.  

 

 

 

Even NCDOT used to push traffic to 485 from SC line on 77 to the Speedway, for example, even though the section open at that time would have added 15 miles to the trip 26 to 41 miles.    That number of extra miles is really a lot.  But it just seems to make sense in people's heads that of course you'd take the bypass to be faster.   

 

At least now we have Waze and connected Nav systems to keep people making more rational decisions. 

[Bikeguy]

The single lane merge onto I-85 South from 485 will be one massive cluster f***.  

[Eightane]

I'll echo what the opinion popping up here has become; there's a big difference between taking a ring road to cut out extra distance, like from the lake to Concord Mills where one might've gone either 77 to 85 or down slower full-access roads, and taking half the loop around from 85 at Belmont to 85 at W.T. Harris or beyond when the distance should speak for itself. It does spread out the volume and thus cut down on congestion and 'up' the time savings on multiple routes to similar destinations (for a while, until sprawl catches up and chokes this down to size), but not for any inherently smart decisions made by all commuters.

 

I'm glad for the positive impacts to rush hour, and honestly as long as development's not abysmal quality at the new interchanges I love the idea of Charlotte growing more consistently at and into its northern fringes. But there'll always be more success or benefits touted than what you actually get if just a little research is done.

 

77 being widened, tolls or non, is a FAR more necessary evil (car culture and emissions) from my point of view, I hated driving to Statesville to see my grandmother even a decade ago when she was still around, rest her soul. It's easily one of the most egregious examples in the whole region for inadequate capacity or infrastructure and I'd pay easily five bucks each way with a smile on my face just to not have to pack bottled water and snacks every time I need that stop-and-go route.

[15895]

I'll echo what the opinion popping up here has become; there's a big difference between taking a ring road to cut out extra distance, like from the lake to Concord Mills where one might've gone either 77 to 85 or down slower full-access roads, and taking half the loop around from 85 at Belmont to 85 at W.T. Harris or beyond when the distance should speak for itself. It does spread out the volume and thus cut down on congestion and 'up' the time savings on multiple routes to similar destinations (for a while, until sprawl catches up and chokes this down to size), but not for any inherently smart decisions made by all commuters.

 

I'm glad for the positive impacts to rush hour, and honestly as long as development's not abysmal quality at the new interchanges I love the idea of Charlotte growing more consistently at and into its northern fringes. But there'll always be more success or benefits touted than what you actually get if just a little research is done.

 

77 being widened, tolls or non, is a FAR more necessary evil (car culture and emissions) from my point of view, I hated driving to Statesville to see my grandmother even a decade ago when she was still around, rest her soul. It's easily one of the most egregious examples in the whole region for inadequate capacity or infrastructure and I'd pay easily five bucks each way with a smile on my face just to not have to pack bottled water and snacks every time I need that stop-and-go route.

 

 

 

This is how  lot of us commuted between the lake and Concord

 

 

 

 

I live between Gilead & Sam Fur in the Not birkdale, Birkdale area and I took Eastfield through the Highland creek neighborhood. Lots of people did.

 

That and  Sam Furr. and Harris Blvd. to University.   Now we have 485. I never visted University but now I think I'll go more often. Especially when light rail opens up (I'd prefer the red line but, well... Life is just tough)

 

 

I don't think I could psychologically take 485 coming from say Fort Mill to Huntersville or 485 from Gastonia to Concord. Unless I was late and driving like a bat out of hell. It's probably faster but my brain says "nooo, cut through"

Edited June 8, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[Spartan]

Absolutely.  There is also an odd psychological element to circles around cities.   For most people, it seems to become this almost magical road.   Like a friend of mine living in Matthews and having a commuting change to now be near uptown.  He literally plans now to use 485 from Matthews all the way around to Brookshire "to avoid Independence".   So a 14mi commute would be 38mi on 485.    

 

I'm sure once he actually does it or looks at the difference in Google, he will change his mind, but I think that fact is true of many people.   They assume a ride around the loop will be faster than the direct route for some reason.  

 

 

 

Even NCDOT used to push traffic to 485 from SC line on 77 to the Speedway, for example, even though the section open at that time would have added 15 miles to the trip 26 to 41 miles.    That number of extra miles is really a lot.  But it just seems to make sense in people's heads that of course you'd take the bypass to be faster.   

 

At least now we have Waze and connected Nav systems to keep people making more rational decisions. 

 

I think you mean we have Waze to keep people from making their own decisions.

 

I wonder if being inside the 485 loop will eventually come to mean something like being 'inside the perimeter' in Atlanta.

[archiham04]

This is what the land area looks like for Charlotte loop (taken from measure feature in Virtual Charlotte) 

 

Area:300.971 (sq miles), 192621.542(acres)

Length: 319218 ft, 60.458 miles

 

 

... and Atlanta:

 

Area:251.072 (sq miles), 160686.337(acres)
Length: 323764 ft, 61.319 miles

Edited June 8, 2015 by archiham04

[Eightane]

I would honestly not have imagined that the Charlotte loop has more land area. Looking on certain maps the 'sphere' inside 285 looks huge, but I'm sure that's  for Georgia's having smaller counties geographically.

 

Another benefit, though, that I neglected earlier: Those in NE Gaston, Lincoln or otherwise near 16 that shop at Concord Mills. And population density aside that's not a low number of heads.

[go_vertical]

I wonder if being inside the 485 loop will eventually come to mean something like being 'inside the perimeter' in Atlanta.

I absolutely believe it will. In 25-30 years Ballantyne will be much more massive and there will also be about two, maybe three, more smaller separated skylines around the city as well. Charlotte repeats constantly how it doesn't want to become Atlanta but we are doing nearly the same things. Granted, we have the luxury of having a case study of how not to do certain things just down the road. We still do much of the same face-palming stuff, but at least it feels like we think it through just a little more than they did....sometimes.