CONSTRUCTION THREAD: TD Bank Regional Headquarters Campus

[goodbye]

I noticed that as well a couple weekends ago. They are really digging along the front next to the road there, so I can understand the necessity to close it temporarily. It will be so much better to have that divided highway running parallel to I-85 someday. Hopefully the McChesney project gets underway quickly to help with the traffic needs (I know it sounds weird to say that).

[maninthepark]

From what I understand, the new road will cut threw the center of the campus, with buildings on both sides. The old road will be abandoned, because the large pond and first building will go right next to

85, with the new road behind them.

Now if they could get G.E to stop shipping turbines on the rail road tracks that runs next to these developments they could have BRT stops here and on to Woodruff R.d.

Something like this.

[gs3]

^ Thanks MITP. This is great to see. It means the SFG / C-First campus will definitely make impact and be well seen from I-85. Very nice!

[erm1981]

Yeah after driving back by the site this past weekend i take back what i said about it not being visible from I-85. Instead I want to say that it will be "highly visible" from I-85. Very good indeed.

[jfl25]

The visability of that area will lure alot more people from 85 to stop in Greenville instead of just passing through.

[GvilleSC]

The visability of that area will lure alot more people from 85 to stop in Greenville instead of just passing through.

Absolutely. For those who have under-estimated Greenville in the past will be blown away when they ride back through and ICAR, McChesney, Magnolia Park, and Carolina First are all under construction in the stretch.

Question: why did they make Fibers Drive so nice if it's going to be abandoned?

[RestedTraveler]

Question: why did they make Fibers Drive so nice if it's going to be abandoned?

I think the answer is: Fibers Drive was done before anyone knew about SFC/CF's plans. This campus is going to have a huge presence along I-85, make no mistake about it. I'd still trade it for a nice 400'-450' tower downtown though. *SIGH*

[maninthepark]

Absolutely. For those who have under-estimated Greenville in the past will be blown away when they ride back through and ICAR, McChesney, Magnolia Park, and Carolina First are all under construction in the stretch.

Question: why did they make Fibers Drive so nice if it's going to be abandoned?

Fibers Dr. is just that short stretch of road between Carolina Point Pkwy. and the old two lane frontage Rd. I'm sure that road will stay open to serve the hotel and other stores

on that end. What I was told was just about the frontage Rd. down next to old Sulphur

Springs Rd.

This extension of Carolina Point Pkwy. will not be the only new road in these two new

developments, but it will be the main four lane road from Woodruff Rd. to Old Sulphur

Springs Rd.

[RestedTraveler]

Hopefully Market Point Drive will extend on out and intersect with Carolina Point Parkway, too. That'd give people coming from Laurens Road/Old Sulphur Springs/etc. a chance to cut straight across Woodruff into the Shops at Gridlock there as well.

[maninthepark]

Hopefully Market Point Drive will extend on out and intersect with Carolina Point Parkway, too. That'd give people coming from Laurens Road/Old Sulphur Springs/etc. a chance to cut straight across Woodruff into the Shops at Gridlock there as well.

R.T. Thats what I was thinking, seems to me they would just about have to intersect

somewhere to make another outlet for the Mcesney propriety.

[gs3]

Hopefully Market Point Drive will extend on out and intersect with Carolina Point Parkway, too. That'd give people coming from Laurens Road/Old Sulphur Springs/etc. a chance to cut straight across Woodruff into the Shops at Gridlock there as well.

I'll post this in the Point thread as well, but I spoke with some people today that equated the McChesney project with Virginia Beach Town Center. Now I doubt we'll have the height of the buildings in VB Town Center, but I do think McChesney will possibly do a grid street pattern as per VB Town Center. That would definitely help traffic. Just hearing this equated to VB Town Center sent chills up my spine!

http://www.vabeachtowncenter.com/Town_Cent...ginia_Beach.php

[RestedTraveler]

If this is the case, then what I can't quite fathom is: WHY IS THIS NOT BEING DEVELOPED DOWNTOWN INSTEAD OF AT THE POINT? The area of North Main between Academy and Stone Ave would have been ideal, one would think? Bring people DOWNTOWN. Don't create a surrogate downtown to take people to the suburbs.

I have a very real concern here. Downtown Disney Westside and Universal Studios Citywalk nearly KILLED (I mean DEAD, too), Downtown Orlando (Sam, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about here). Granted, Downtown Orlando is starting to come back to life, but it has taken over a decade. I'm not so sure Downtown Greenville could withstand the same sort of thing happening here. I liken this to the boom of suburban shopping malls killing downtown retail in the 70's and 80's.

Yes, this would provide some visible height along I-85 and I-385 to people passing by, but I fear it may do irreprable harm to Downtown retail and entertainment that currently exists. Do we really want this tradeoff?

[GvilleSC]

Yes, this would provide some visible height along I-85 and I-385 to people passing by, but I fear it may do irreprable harm to Downtown retail and entertainment that currently exists. Do we really want this tradeoff?

It can't really do any more damage to downtown retail as it will be totally seperate tenants since downtown can't land a national retailer to save its life right now. Though, I understand your concerns, I'm too excited about the possibility of the connection with downtown greenville via mass transit. We need something of this sort to get people out of their cars, IMO. Ok, so one more office tower won't be built downtown. We have very few on the table to be built that are mostly office space anyway. Falls Park isn't moving to the suburbs and the work that the city has put forth into downtown won't be for nothing all thanks to this one development. Perhaps, if this was actually downtown Disney we were getting... I think we have nothing to worry about.

[RestedTraveler]

I was excited about Downtown Disney as well...and Universal CityWalk...then a strange thing happened. I went downtown in Orlando expecting to return to my old haunts on Wall Street and Church Street only to find the place nearly a ghost town. All of the shopping and entertainment options elsewhere really drew people away from downtown.

That's changing now in Orlando with all of the new residential projects, but it's a totally different crowd in downtown now as compared to the late 80's/early 90's.

People didn't think suburban shopping malls would kill downtown retail back in the 70's and 80's, too, but look at places like Huntington, WV; Akron, OH; Lima, OH; Fort Wayne, IN; etc. In most cases, their downtowns have yet to bounce back...Akron recently built a downtown ballpark which has been somewhat of a catalyst for redevelopment and renewed interest in downtown. Huntington finally developed its "Superblock" into Pullman Square, which has sparked some revitalization there. But it's taken decades.

I'm just concerned that something on this huge of a scale (we're talking Virginia Beach Town Center or Atlantic Station) would really hurt Downtown Greenville, regardless of RiverPlace, Falls Park, West End Field, and the other "destination" type places. Church Street Station was a destination in Orlando, too, at one time. I'd much rather see something like this at University Ridge or on North Main so the spillover would benefit downtown merchants and restaurants. Forget the "spin the farthest the fastest" algorithm and spend some processing time slices on the core. It'll reap more benefits in the long run (transit and otherwise) to make this entire community more sustainable. Visibility will come in time, too, if the core is strengthened.

[goodbye]

I totally understand what you are saying, RT, but in this case it would likely take a pretty impressive tourist destination to draw people from downtown. Downtown Greenville is the cultural and tourist hub of the entire Upstate, and that is not because of its retail options. Your analogy to Orlando is nonetheless very important for us to consider here in Greenville and I thank you for providing your personal experience there. Perhaps you could send this information via an e-mail to the Mayor and County Council Chairman as well? They would really appreciate any input such as this.

[gs3]

^ I think these are great points, and I also think thats why the BRT has been such a topic of conversation. IMO city officials realize the need to protect and grow downtown, that's why we keep hearing about the development at Palmetto Expo (Carolina First) for a transit center and we keep hearing all the buzz about some sort of BRT / rail transit linking downtown to this area.

I don't see this killing downtown. I see it as a companion to boost Greenville proper. Other cities have lively downtowns and lively urban centers elsewhere....why can't Greenville? Downtown has a natural (not man made) attractiveness that would be hard to kill off (the river / waterfall / trees / quaint feel). If this had gone downtown, I fear some people would have said "why is Greenville putting all its eggs in one basket"? We hear that cut all the time from certain forumers who say Greenville is "just Main Street".

I for one am glad Greenville is sprouting multiple lively, dense areas. It's the sign of a true city IMO.

As I wrote earlier, the person comparing this to VB Town Center obviously said we want have the height. We wouldn't have the population either. But on only 60 acres, the amount of living, office and retail space they plan......do the math.....it will be dense and a smaller scale version of VB Town Center.

[goodbye]

...Downtown has a natural (not man made) attractiveness that would be hard to kill off (the river / waterfall / trees / quaint feel)...

That is precisely the main reason I think it would be harder to "kill" off the pedestrian traffic in downtown. I like to use the word "organic" as a description of this natural (non-artificial) attraction. That is not to say that some form of powerful tourist attraction couldn't do exactly what was done in Orlando though.

[mallguy]

I agree with the "why isn't this built downtown?!" concerns. Every office building built in suburbia rather than downtown lures a generator of restaurant and retail sales away from downtown, and with Greenville's relatively small supply of office space downtown, these Woodruff/I-85 developments will result in having perhaps more office space there than downtown.

If I were a developer though I wouldn't be building suburban office space in Greenville. Look at http://www.southeastrebusiness.com for Greenville's city report about office space; suburban office space is already way overbuilt. With space custom-built for specific tenants a developer should do fine, but spec space in suburban Greenville is a recipe for financial disaster.

I lived through downtown's collapse in the early '80s due to shopping center and office development in the suburbs. Downtown today is more resilient than at that time but just because downtown has bounced back once (as an entertainment/dining center) doesn't mean it can withstand everything.

[GvilleSC]

I lived through downtown's collapse in the early '80s due to shopping center and office development in the suburbs. Downtown today is more resilient than at that time but just because downtown has bounced back once (as an entertainment/dining center) doesn't mean it can withstand everything.

I tend to think that Greenville can't relapse to the same extent again based on a few things. Usually people learn from their mistakes and the city has rebuilt with those mistakes in mind. They're haunting. Also, the city was sitting comfortably in the 80's and seemed to be blind-sided by it to an extent, IMO. Today, we have plans for downtown and the city is drawing up a new one as we speak. We aren't satisfied at where we stand today, we are trying to make it better and bigger. We're being proactive and I think that is what will keep downtown as the premier destination for entertainment and dining in the Upstate.

[goodbye]

...Today, we have plans for downtown and the city is drawing up a new one as we speak. We aren't satisfied at where we stand today, we are trying to make it better and bigger. We're being proactive and I think that is what will keep downtown as the premier destination for entertainment and dining in the Upstate.

This is very true. Vision is what has driven downtown to continually become better in the last 30 years and will continue to lead the success of the city into the future. Vision leads to success. With that said, vision seems to have been overlooked for several years in the suburbs and especially along the Woodruff Road corridor. I remember the ominous predictions before it had been developed, and thinking what a terrible job the state had done by its lack of planning for the anticipated changes which were to occur. We are really witnessing the result of the lack of vision in that area.

[gs3]

I tend to think that Greenville can't relapse to the same extent again based on a few things. Usually people learn from their mistakes and the city has rebuilt with those mistakes in mind. They're haunting. Also, the city was sitting comfortably in the 80's and seemed to be blind-sided by it to an extent, IMO. Today, we have plans for downtown and the city is drawing up a new one as we speak. We aren't satisfied at where we stand today, we are trying to make it better and bigger. We're being proactive and I think that is what will keep downtown as the premier destination for entertainment and dining in the Upstate.

Well said.

Every city in the US had a downtown that collapsed in the 70's and this ran into the early eighties. It was the national trend. Look at seventies photos of Charlotte and all the buildings that were imploded.....it's thriving now even with growth in the suburbs. Look at Miami Beach in the seventies, it was full of bums and drug dealers.....thriving now as a hip threndy area with other areas areas of Miami growing. Atlanta's downtown in the 70's dismal.....Birmingham - dismal.....Baltimore -dismal.....Chicago and their ill-fated State Street pedestrian mall........on and on and on. Greenville isn't exempt from national trends. Because something happened once during a national trend 30 years ago.....can we move into 2007 with a positive view of the future and look at where we stand today?

[linkerjpatrick]

Well said.

Every city in the US had a downtown that collapsed in the 70' and this ran into the early eighties. It was the national trend.

I got a big kick out of the movie, Back to the Future which came out in 1985 and the movie itself started out in 1985. I was reminded so much of Greenville in that movie even though "Hill Valley" was supposed to be in California it could have been filmed in Greenville and looked the same. Downtown Greenville in the early 80's looked a lot like Hill Valley in that movie and the Twin/Lone Pine(s) Mall reminded me of the newly constructed Haywood Mall complete with the JCPenny in the background. Greenville High even looked like the same. Ok, I know it was off topic but it was interesting how BTTF captured the collapsed downtown/mall growth of the late 70's and early 80's.

[mallguy]

The posts above make good points but Greenville leaders were bullish on downtown in the late '60s, before it fell apart in the '70s and '80s. In the '60s and early '70s, there was a large amount of new construction downtown, with the Daniel Building, the Bank of America building, the Greenville News building, the library and Bell Tower Mall. People at the time thought these projects would revitalize downtown and ensure its status as the Upstate's commercial center, and there were major streetscape improvements then too, with Main Street being narrowed to 2 lanes and the trees, parking spaces and the like being installed. There were also big plans for downtown, with even the Southern Railway station to be used as a multimodal center, and Belk's, Ivey's, Penney's and the like all confirming their commitments to downtown despite McAlister Square opening. Go to the library and all of these plans and news articles from the time are available.

Then the wave of shopping center and office growth in suburbia rendered downtown a run-down dead zone for 15-20 years.

My point is just that while downtown is very nice and has gotten better over the years and will still hopefully be getting better and better, with more new projects coming, it's losing some potential large anchors to the suburbs that would help it be even better and resilient, and when developments at Woodruff and I-85 will potentially have more office and retail space than downtown, that's troubling.

[GvilleSC]

My point is just that while downtown is very nice and has gotten better over the years and will still hopefully be getting better and better, with more new projects coming, it's losing some potential large anchors to the suburbs that would help it be even better and resilient, and when developments at Woodruff and I-85 will potentially have more office and retail space than downtown, that's troubling.

Sure. But Downtown Greenville a couple of years ago accounted for something one-third of the office space in the Greenville-Spartanburg area. I don't think we have TOO much to worry about YET. I was going to say "maybe the city should master plan this area to make sure they know what they're getting themselves into and sort of regulate what goes in", but wait, it is all planned. ICAR is a master planned research park. Millenium Campus has a plan somewhat. Verdae is masterplanned. Carolina First has a plan... And McChesney is landlocked by masterplanned developments. With only 60 acres... I think we have little worry about. Only so much fun and excitement can go in there. I think

[gs3]

Was by this site this morning and it looks like they have the lake staked out. There are stakes all around the front of the development and the excavation is going to about a 10 ft. depth. Per the rendering, looks like this should be the lake.

The way this site is taking off, doesn't seem like it will be too long before we see steel rising.