Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[dcharlotte]

I think many of the small towns in Gaston County could REALLY hype themselves as 'hip, urban, creative' places and dial up their arts scene and investment by creating an interurban to Uptown that is quick and drops folks off at the future train station. These towns have old, cute downtown areas that need investment and have been preserved over the years.

 

If you can complete the trip in about the same time as a car then I think there would be a true value to the service. 

[Guest]

I think many of the small towns in Gaston County could REALLY hype themselves as 'hip, urban, creative' places and dial up their arts scene and investment by creating an interurban to Uptown that is quick and drops folks off at the future train station. These towns have old, cute downtown areas that need investment and have been preserved over the years.

 

If you can complete the trip in about the same time as a car then I think there would be a true value to the service. 

I know a mover and shaker in Marshville, of all places. They have quietly been buying up property in downtown with hopes that the bypass comes to be. They want to create a artsy pedestrian friendly community for millennials. 

[ah59396]

Belmont has a very cool downtown.  I am excited they are moving forward with a small street car plan like this.  Good for them.

[Eightane]

I think many of the small towns in Gaston County could REALLY hype themselves as 'hip, urban, creative' places and dial up their arts scene and investment by creating an interurban to Uptown that is quick and drops folks off at the future train station. These towns have old, cute downtown areas that need investment and have been preserved over the years.

 

If you can complete the trip in about the same time as a car then I think there would be a true value to the service. 

 

As someone who grew up in (and has lived in) Gaston County all my life, I think that's FAR too outside reality to expect from all but the easternmost burgs. Any civic investment in mass transit or making cultural strides in modern or bohemian ways would be just that, civic, pushed by those in charge of economics or the like. Many, many people in the majority of Gaston County have no desire to connect themselves with anything in Charlotte but the jobs. There are *hoardes* of older or descendant-of-older mill folk or country-bred citizens who lack any appreciation for what a city or its effects have to offer, and they act as a collective of old dogs (the proverbial kind, who don't take to new tricks). Belmont and Mount Holly are two exceptions due to raw proximity and the people who moved out *from* Charlotte for cheaper land or CoL; they have more knowledge/understanding of the benefits. Lowell may be notable for a now-progressive council, but in their case for development, not culture. Even somewhere like Stanley - which isn't exactly knocking on Cleveland's door - will take at LEAST decades to reach a precipice like that. Anywhere further, like Bessemer, Cherryville, no way will we see that in our lifetimes.

 

I personally believe Charlotte has grown more 'out' in all directions except due west for a reason, and it's not the river. It's a different world here in mentality.

[Niner National]

At lunch, I followed the streetcar down Elizabeth from Hawthone to Charlottetown. Max speed we hit was 7mph.

 

I know they're just testing it right now, but that isn't going to go over well, even at twice that speed.

[navigator319]

At lunch, I followed the streetcar down Elizabeth from Hawthone to Charlottetown. Max speed we hit was 7mph.

 

I know they're just testing it right now, but that isn't going to go over well, even at twice that speed.

 

I had my first experience with being stuck behind this 'moving' brick on Saturday where Trade/Elizabeth goes to one lane.  BAD.

 

I am still reserving judgment until it opens and give it a test ride and also share the road with it.  Once I do that a couple times a take few to reflect I'll come down on one side or the other.   I have to say though I am VERY worried I will be coming down in the camp that this thing needs to be shelved and go away.

[15895]

Ok, seriously, what do people (people in general, not you all) expect a streetcar in the middle of the busiest central business district in the region expect? 30 MPH from?

Even if it had complete right of way, dedicated lane, etc. it would still go slow. High speed rail would go really slow if it had 3 or 4 stops uptown.

The blue line feels like it goes slow uptown, though, I've never heard anyone complain about that speed?

It's streetcar. Uptown.

Edited June 16, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[tozmervo]

It takes the BL 5 minutes to go from 7th St to Stonewall, a distance of approximately 3500 ft. That works out to an average of 8 MPH. (So actual speed should be higher since that average includes hold time at each station)

[navigator319]

Ok, seriously, what do people (people in general, not you all) expect a streetcar in the middle of the busiest central business district in the region expect? 30 MPH from?

Even if it had complete right of way, dedicated lane, etc. it would still go slow. High speed rail would go really slow if it had 3 or 4 stops uptown.

The blue line feels like it goes slow uptown, though, I've never heard anyone complain about that speed?

It's streetcar. Uptown.

 

I for one was very surprised a few months ago when discovered there was going to be a single lane section of the project.  I was not prepared for this set up and thus never considered it.  Always thought there would be two lanes and cars could pass if possible.

 

Also for me its not so much the speed of the actual trolly for transportation purposes that is a concern to me. It is the interaction between it and the cars and what that does for the 99% of the people that also use the road.

 

I have used the streetcar system in Amsterdam, granted my only experience using a streetcar, but I certainly recall it going faster then 7/10/15 MPH and train/car/bike interaction that was great. 

[15895]

I for one was very surprised a few months ago when discovered there was going to be a single lane section of the project. I was not prepared for this set up and thus never considered it. Always thought there would be two lanes and cars could pass if possible.

Also for me its not so much the speed of the actual trolly for transportation purposes that is a concern to me. It is the interaction between it and the cars and what that does for the 99% of the people that also use the road.

I have used the streetcar system in Amsterdam, granted my only experience using a streetcar, but I certainly recall it going faster then 7/10/15 MPH and train/car/bike interaction that was great.

I'm just going on based off the blue line in uptown. It sounds to me like the gold and blue line will go the same speed uptown.

I'd imagine outside of uptown, the speed will increase

I'm just tired of being apologetic to the citizens of Kannapolis and Salisbury outraged over the streetcar. The vocal crowd against streetcars will always be against streetcar. If we want it, we mine as well defend it accurately.

Edited June 17, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

I'm just tired of being apologetic to the citizens of Kannapolis and Salisbury outraged over the streetcar. The vocal crowd against streetcars will always be against streetcar. If we want it, we mine as well defend it accurately.

 

agreed!

 

The streetcar will only be a hardship to drivers who are not smart enough to go a block over to 3rd or 4th street. Should we shape our transit system around these people?

[navigator319]

 

The streetcar will only be a hardship to drivers who are not smart enough to go a block over to 3rd or 4th street. Should we shape our transit system around these people?

 

I think that's a bit of an over simplification, but for the sake of argument lets accept that and run with it.  Why not acknowledge this and build the system with this is mind.  Where is some sort of master plan? Make this a pedestrian corridor with a streetcar only?  This city needs leadership and it has minimal at the moment.  Same argument can be made for all these bland POS's being thrown up and marketed as luxury apartments.

[ah59396]

I'm just going on based off the blue line in uptown. It sounds to me like the gold and blue line will go the same speed uptown.

I'd imagine outside of uptown, the speed will increase

I'm just tired of being apologetic to the citizens of Kannapolis and Salisbury outraged over the streetcar. The vocal crowd against streetcars will always be against streetcar. If we want it, we mine as well defend it accurately.

The Blue Line doesn't have any cars riding behind it, so I think it's a poor comparison. And for what it's worth, I've been on other streetcar systems like Amsterdam and the TTC, they go faster than 7mph. Also, (and probably most important) I'm from Concord, not K-nap. Troutman's BBQ 4 Life.

[15895]

The Blue Line doesn't have any cars riding behind it, so I think it's a poor comparison. And for what it's worth, I've been on other streetcar systems like Amsterdam and the TTC, they go faster than 7mph. Also, (and probably most important) I'm from Concord, not K-nap. Troutman's BBQ 4 Life.

Not you, I'm talking about the average Ma & Pa Kettle.

We don't know if it'll only go 7mph. It will probably go the sane speed as the blue line and if that's a problem for drivers... Consider it revenge cars driving in biking lanes and pulling out past the pedestrian crosswalks.

And it's the city. People need to deal. What's the worst that happens, less people drive on Trade?

[ah59396]

Not you, I'm talking about the average Ma & Pa Kettle.

We don't know if it'll only go 7mph. It will probably go the sane speed as the blue line and if that's a problem for drivers... Consider it revenge cars driving in biking lanes and pulling out past the pedestrian crosswalks.

And it's the city. People need to deal. What's the worst that happens, less people drive on Trade?

Haha, I know. Just giving you a hard time. I think I'm just a worrywart. Maybe I should just wait and see before passing judgment.

[kermit]

I was CPCC Central Campus taking my college experience class with CMS, and Trade St & Central Ave really do need the streetcar service soon. Central Ave's route (route 9) frequency is every 5 min and it still overcrowded, everyone have to stand up. By the time all the 8 routes the pass by CPCC, on Trade Street, all the buses are really crowded.

Since we are only weeks away from the starter segment opening I thought it might be illuminating to quote the first post from this thread. Its nearly 12 years old!

Lots of enthusiasm for a whole streetcar network back then. There was no angst about speed, disrupting drivers or ridership.

Edited June 17, 2015 by kermit

[tusculan]

So I was in Bordeaux today, where they have three long new streetcar lines, all of which are frequent and well liked. From 11am until 8pm, the cars were all full seating capacity to 60% standing. Here are my observations:

The streetcars ran probably 70/30 in independent ROW. This was accomplished by closing the streets to cars, or reducing lanes.

The streetcars were fast. Or fast enough. They averaged 10 mph with stops included. So they probably got to a max speed of about 20.

The streetcars went right through the center of the city and between the places people go: the museum, the large park, the train station, the central square. And then decently out into the suburbs.

The streetcars had independent signaling. The only time a streetcar stopped other than at a designated spot was to allow another crossing streetcar through.

The stations were 500 meters apart almost exactly. I know because each station provided a map of the neighborhood with concentric distances indicated from the stop. About 75%of the stops also had bike rentals.

Importantly, these are not the only thoroughfares closed to cars. I would say about 30%of the streets in the center were for streetcars or pedestrians/bikes only. Increase foot traffic, streetcars will be popular.

The day pass for unlimited use was 4.30 euro or about 5 dollars.

[DEnd]

So I was in Bordeaux today, where they have three long new streetcar lines, all of which are frequent and well liked. From 11am until 8pm, the cars were all full seating capacity to 60% standing. Here are my observations:

The streetcars ran probably 70/30 in independent ROW. This was accomplished by closing the streets to cars, or reducing lanes.

 

The streetcars were fast. Or fast enough. They averaged 10 mph with stops included. So they probably got to a max speed of about 20.

 

The streetcars had independent signaling. The only time a streetcar stopped other than at a designated spot was to allow another crossing streetcar through.

I hope this is something Charlotte will implement for the "Future" phases of the line (ie after Phase 2). Central has the room past Plaza (for a dedicated ROW), and it looks to me like Beatties Ford does as well once it is over Brookshire. In Uptown I'm not all that concerned with traffic (traffic is really not bad there), especially with priority signaling.

If they were able to make Trade/Elizabeth the only mixed traffic part of the line then only about 30% or so of the stops would be in mixed traffic.

[15895]

http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1350802&p=1#1350832

Whoever took these pictures make Trade street look much more interesting than it is.

[videtur quam contuor]

I was in Bordeaux a few years ago and foolishly tried to park in the city center. I followed a small delivery truck through a very crowded street thronged with pedestrians and then realised I was in the streetcar path. It was early enough in the morning that small delivery vehicles were allowed to operate for commercial reasons however they took all the space on the side of the street and I faced an oncoming modern street car and had to reverse out of the street since there was nowhere to go but back. Nowhere to turn. Everyone was much more accepting than I expected. No NY finger waves or horns.

Large areas are pedestrianised which added to my confusion. Exhausted, I ditched the car ASAP.

Moral:  Leave the car, take the cannoli.

[Midwoodian]

Per Clt Observer CIty Council to vote in 7.7mm in engineering services for PhaseII on Monday.  For those with a pulse on the political climate of the City Council, is there any reason to be worried this would not pass?  Are we in the clear with the budget being fixed?

[kermit]

Per Clt Observer CIty Council to vote in 7.7mm in engineering services for PhaseII on Monday. For those with a pulse on the political climate of the City Council, is there any reason to be worried this would not pass? Are we in the clear with the budget being fixed?

I am not a close council observer. However, my read is that if Phase II was going to get killed off it would have been during the budget process. The FFGA for Phase II should be signed in October (before the next election) so unless the starter segment gives the city cooties in the three months it will be open I think Phase II is good to go.

It sure would be nice if we could get a tiny bit of the explosive development in Southend, Uptown, PM and NoDa to spill over to Elizabeth ave. The absence of activity there is killing me.

Edited June 18, 2015 by kermit

[nonillogical]

It sure would be nice if we could get a tiny bit of the explosive development in Southend, Uptown, PM and NoDa to spill over to Elizabeth ave. The absence of activity there is killing me.

I will say that Earl's Grocery and Viva Chicken have single-handedly (dual-handedly?) caused a noticeable increase in activity at lunchtime. So far Elizabeth Ave has a great mix of businesses (bike shop that serves beer should get more credit for sure), it just needs more of them. 

[Spartan]

Council will pass it. If they were against the project they wouldn't have included funds for it in the FY16 budget.

[southslider]

Barnes and O'Fallon will likely join the Republicans as "nay" votes-- something to remember in the primary for mayor.