Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[dubone]

Wait what!?  Are they going to vote against the Phase II project?

[15895]

Wait what!? Are they going to vote against the Phase II project?

Ugh. Fallon has always been obnoxiously against the streetcar.

[ajfunder]

It will pass, most likely by a 7-4 margin. The two Republicans as well as Fallon and Barnes will vote against it. Not sure Fallon's issue with the project but she has voted against the streetcar everytime except for once. Barnes doesn't like the way it is being funded and insists it be built through the MTC despite the MTC saying the city should build it due to lack of funds.

[dubone]

The streetcar project has highlighted a number of really flawed political points of view.   MTC SHOULD be funding this, but proves itself beholden to the suburban towns by blocking a highly viable and eligible-for-FTA-funds project, but obsessively supporting others that are not viable, but purely because they go out to the suburbs.  Meanwhile, it is the conservatives in the towns that complain about boondoggles, yet their politicians seem to be not holding themselves to fact-based, technocratic prioritization.  

 

 

I'm relieved that the Nay votes are maybe more symbolic but won't actually block the project from progressing just prior to likely federal appropriations. 

[15895]

It's funny... Some opponents are all like "I believe in the streetcar, and I support the streetcar, it's much needed. I just think transit should keep to its 1/2 cent pledge and go through MTC............ But :0 it's slow, it goes 6 MPH and will run over your children, we're all gonna die"

[ah59396]

It's funny... Some opponents are all like "I believe in the streetcar, and I support the streetcar, it's much needed. I just think transit should keep to its 1/2 cent pledge and go through MTC............ But :0 it's slow, it goes 6 MPH and will run over your children, we're all gonna die"

 

 

I think I'd actually be more in favor of the streetcar if it intentionally ran over children.  Like some sort of mythical beast.  And Charlotte parents could threaten their children to be good lest they have to ride "THE STREETCAR".

[15895]

I think I'd actually be more in favor of the streetcar if it intentionally ran over children. Like some sort of mythical beast. And Charlotte parents could threaten their children to be good lest they have to ride "THE STREETCAR".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms

our streetcar could be like this scene from Austin powers

[ah59396]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms

our streetcar could be like this scene from Austin powers

Hahahaha. I love it.

[CLTProductions]

The item on the City Council agenda tonight passed

[illustration82]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms

our streetcar could be like this scene from Austin powers

Too Funny.. I love it.  lol

[Midwoodian]

So to the Councilman's point about no funding in place for Phase III, what are the realistic funding options?

Will Phase III be included in the next major CIP round a decade from now (not the most recent one of 900mm over several years)? Is a special tax district along the route at all viable in CLT? Would TIF work?

What are your thoughts?

[kermit]

So to the Councilman's point about no funding in place for Phase III, what are the realistic funding options?

Will Phase III be included in the next major CIP round a decade from now (not the most recent one of 900mm over several years)? Is a special tax district along the route at all viable in CLT? Would TIF work?

What are your thoughts?

 

 

dubone nailed this a few posts up. Phase III should be funded by the MTC and the transit tax. We are well past the time when the MTC should be creating a 2040 plan. Its time to jettison some elements of the 2020 plan (the Red Line) and that should free up sufficient cash for phase III and other projects. 

[dubone]

So to the Councilman's point about no funding in place for Phase III, what are the realistic funding options?

Will Phase III be included in the next major CIP round a decade from now (not the most recent one of 900mm over several years)? Is a special tax district along the route at all viable in CLT? Would TIF work?

What are your thoughts?

 

Of course there is no funding yet for Phase III.   This is an incremental project because that is what the policymakers have made it.   They once talked about building the whole thing end to end, but guess what happened:  Blue Line and the Red Line were determined to be next in MTC priority, so this project had to scrounge for scraps.  Yet every time it went up for federal funding, it earned the funds because of its value/ cost-benefit numbers.   

[Midwoodian]

Of course there is no funding yet for Phase III. This is an incremental project because that is what the policymakers have made it. They once talked about building the whole thing end to end, but guess what happened: Blue Line and the Red Line were determined to be next in MTC priority, so this project had to scrounge for scraps. Yet every time it went up for federal funding, it earned the funds because of its value/ cost-benefit numbers.

Dubone, I know there's no funding yet for Phase 3. I'm trying to spur conversation and discussion amongst the urban and progressive minds we all have on this board regarding potential funding options.

I'd love to see Charlotte use more exotic financing options, as I don't think we can count on the MTC or half cent sales taxes anymore...

[dubone]

My opinion is more or less implied.   This needs to be recognized as the viable project that it has always been, with lower cost and higher ridership than any other line in the region, and now an extension of an existing line.  

 

MTC members needs to stop being selfish and look at the needs of the city and the lines that are most viable, and put this back on the priority list for the plans for the next decade and build it.  

 

The southeast corridor has no direct plans now that they are going to use the transit lanes as HOT lanes, except that I still believe that HOT is a major boost to express buses.  

The northern corridor is dead for a long time with Norfolk Southern putting the nail in that coffin, and the HOT lanes and their fast express buses making very hard to overcome the high costs of new tracks.  

The west corridor to the airport could not even beat the bus on travel time, and showed little added ridership over the current buses, so it has always been a low priority, even if it is a pet project for average people who want transit to airports.  

The Blue Line obviously could use further expansion, but the increments from that will not be as large as new transit miles.

 

 

 

I think that MTC should partner with the city with CIP-type funds paying for actual streetscape and expansion of Central and Beatties Ford with a transit median, but that the transit itself should be paid for by the 1/2c sales tax and federal grants.  And at some point, if they reach a phase that is not viable for a small starts grant from the FTA, then it ends there.  But I think we will at least be easily viable out to Eastway because of the density and transit-friendliness of the neighborhoods. 

(Also, my "of course" snark was directed more to the councilman)

[cltbwimob]

I guess I will be the contrarian here. 

 

While phase 1 & 2 of the streetcar are probably ok, phase 3 of the streetcar should be abandoned altogether and the focus shifted to projects such as the silver line and the airport corridor, as well as a viable alternative to the red line. 

 

We like to claim the viability of the project based on ridership models predicting 14000-16000 riders per day, but if we take a step back and think about it for a second, do we honestly believe the streetcar is going to generate the same ridership as the current blue line?  That's what the models say, but in reality the idea defies logic.  We are, after all, relying on the same models that were 60% off target for initial blue line ridership estimates and the same models that predicted that the silver line LRT option would generate 2000 riders per day less if it were extended to Gateway Station vis-a-vis ending at CTC.  The models seem to rely on some very shaky assumptions.   

 

Streetcar seems to have fallen out of favor with many popular transit planners and publications.  Even publications that seemed at one point to support the technology have turned against it as more and more systems that get built fail to meet expectations.  Why?  Because streetcar systems around the country average 6-10 mph (when factoring in dwell time at stops), and this is a very important fact especially for phase 3 which proposes to extend the line almost 6 miles from downtown.   Also, there are questions about its efficiency, its reliability etc.  Basically, everything that is required for transit to be useful to the masses is exactly everything streetcar lacks.  Even its most ardent proponents downplay its value as a transit technology because as a transit technology it has the lowest capacity on a per hour basis of any of the technologies currently in use.  Problems of reliability and speed may not be of much consequence for phases 1 & 2 since the distances covered are relatively short. However, as the line stretches further from downtown, its problems are going to become much more obvious. 

[ah59396]

I guess I will be the contrarian here. 

 

While phase 1 & 2 of the streetcar are probably ok, phase 3 of the streetcar should be abandoned altogether and the focus shifted to projects such as the silver line and the airport corridor, as well as a viable alternative to the red line. 

 

We like to claim the viability of the project based on ridership models predicting 14000-16000 riders per day, but if we take a step back and think about it for a second, do we honestly believe the streetcar is going to generate the same ridership as the current blue line?  That's what the models say, but in reality the idea defies logic.  We are, after all, relying on the same models that were 60% off target for initial blue line ridership estimates and the same models that predicted that the silver line LRT option would generate 2000 riders per day less if it were extended to Gateway Station vis-a-vis ending at CTC.  The models seem to rely on some very shaky assumptions.   

 

Streetcar seems to have fallen out of favor with many popular transit planners and publications.  Even publications that seemed at one point to support the technology have turned against it as more and more systems that get built fail to meet expectations.  Why?  Because streetcar systems around the country average 6-10 mph (when factoring in dwell time at stops), and this is a very important fact especially for phase 3 which proposes to extend the line almost 6 miles from downtown.   Also, there are questions about its efficiency, its reliability etc.  Basically, everything that is required for transit to be useful to the masses is exactly everything streetcar lacks.  Even its most ardent proponents downplay its value as a transit technology because as a transit technology it has the lowest capacity on a per hour basis of any of the technologies currently in use.  Problems of reliability and speed may not be of much consequence for phases 1 & 2 since the distances covered are relatively short. However, as the line stretches further from downtown, its problems are going to become much more obvious. 

 

 

I agree completely with this.  Finish phase 2 and then focus elsewhere.  The length of the line with phase 3 is way too long to be appropriately functional.  I'd prefer they spur off the existing streetcar line that will be in place or focus funding on light rail lines.

[southslider]

I agree. Let Phases 1 and 2 replace Gold Rush and connect the first-ring neighborhoods. But then, focus on east-west RAPID transit line.

[Niner National]

Long distance street car would only make sense if they were going to give it dedicated ROW for much of the length of the line.

[kermit]

Real rapid transit comnecting the East Side (including the PM business cluster) to downtown would certainly be the best option but how and where?

Suboptimal rail transit that people use is better than a dream of optimal rail transit that never gets built due to cost IMO.

Most of the angst about the streetcar would be solved if it ran in dedicated lanes -- that would cerainly be a cheaper option than a new ROW in a corridor that lacks any better options.

Edit: what Niner said

Edited June 23, 2015 by kermit

[ah59396]

Someone mentioned it on another thread, but realistically the priorities should be:

 

BLE

Phase 2 Streetcar

 

Then some variance of:

 

Ballantyne Lightrail spur

Southpark Lightrail spur

 

 

And then we have to figure out a way to service the east side of the city.   A huge chunk of the population lives there.  (edit, used a smaller, yet more accurate 2010 map)

 

Edited June 23, 2015 by ah59396

[Midwoodian]

On the east side of Phase 3, once the line crosses Plaza I would think dedicated right of way should be the way to go, and would be much more cost efficient, and honestly more aesthetically pleasing for the area. From Plaza west, Central feels less cramped and business are further set back, making potential purchase of new ROW footage more viable.  Heck, once Central crosses Eastway, there is a planted median in the road just waiting to be torn up for Streetcar ROW.

 

Has a designated ROW on part of the line ever been discussed seriously by City transit officials?

I agree completely with this.  Finish phase 2 and then focus elsewhere.  The length of the line with phase 3 is way too long to be appropriately functional.  I'd prefer they spur off the existing streetcar line that will be in place or focus funding on light rail lines.

 

Interested thought on the spur.  What are you thinking here?  Something of a North/South line from Hawthorne connecting Noda, MP and Dilworth?

[ah59396]

On the east side of Phase 3, once the line crosses Plaza I would think dedicated right of way should be the way to go, and would be much more cost efficient, and honestly more aesthetically pleasing for the area. From Plaza west, Central feels less cramped and business are further set back, making potential purchase of new ROW footage more viable.  Heck, once Central crosses Eastway, there is a planted median in the road just waiting to be torn up for Streetcar ROW.

 

Has a designated ROW on part of the line ever been discussed seriously by City transit officials?

 

Interested thought on the spur.  What are you thinking here?  Something of a North/South line from Hawthorne connecting Noda, MP and Dilworth?

 

 

Haha, that's kind of the tough part.  But yes, something like that.  If we are going to sit here and say it's a neighborhood connector (which I think it is), we shouldn't be running a 34 station, 12 mile long, street car line (unless it had dedicated ROW as someone mentioned).

 

I'm not sure how in the heck you could make it work from a logistical standpoint, but a sort of circulator line that captures the edit eastern portion of Dilworth, northern parts of Myers Park, Elizabeth, P-Midwood and feeds back into the primary Gold Line would be pretty effective.  So, pretty much what we had in place prior to 1938.

Edited June 23, 2015 by ah59396

[kermit]

Someone mentioned it on another thread, but realistically the priorities should be:

BLE

Phase 2 Streetcar

Then some variance of:

Ballantyne Lightrail spur

Southpark Lightrail spur

And then we have to figure out a way to service the east side of the city. A huge chunk of the population lives there.

I generally agree, but I would prioritize East side access over either of the Blue Line extensions. The reasoning is the east side has a far greater need for investment to catalyze redevelopment. Southpark and Btyne are built out and stable and content to be car-culture communities. The Eastside is showing some signs of redevelopment beyond PM (Kirkwood, Shamrock) so substantial transit investment could really transform the area. Given the magnitude of change that is possible Eastside rail will generate a huge ROI for the city. But SP and Btyne transit won't budge the needle on property tax revenues. Edited June 23, 2015 by kermit

[Spartan]

I generally agree, but I would prioritize East side access over either of the Blue Line extensions. The reasoning is the east side has a far greater need for investment to catalyze redevelopment. Southpark and Btyne are built out and stable and content to be car-culture communities. The Eastside is showing some signs of redevelopment beyond PM (Kirkwood, Shamrock) so substantial transit investment could really transform the area. Given the magnitude of change that is possible Eastside rail will generate a huge ROI for the city. But SP and Btyne transit won't budge the needle on property tax revenues.

 

This. Exactly. SP i can get on board with, but only after the east side gets fixed route transit.