Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[dcharlotte]

I also think it is a joke to call it the gold line. Pick any other primary color that is not being used and go with that first.

 

MARTA has a gold line that everyone just calls yellow and then just has an odd urine hue on all maps that are a year old. 

[Niner National]

I doubt it. Look to every other streetcar that is being built in America right now and you'll see there's a reason these things have not been built too often. They are stuck in traffic, slow, take forever to build, and are expensive as hell when compared to bus or light rail on dedicated right of way. 

The one in DC is still under construction as far as I know and it started construction in 2008. 7 years for 2.5 miles. They were well into construction when I moved back to Charlotte in 2012. Much of the line actually looked finished yet it still isn't open, 3.5 years after I moved back to CLT.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Niner National

[DMann]

About time.  Not to be a negative Nancy, but I've found it insane that this thing broke ground in December 2012.  Nearly 3 years to build 1.5 miles, of which a large portion already had rail in place.  Pretty nuts.  Hopefully they've learned from the mistakes in the first phase and phase 2 goes a lot smoother.

A big part of the work was to replace the utilities under the roadway.  They were pretty old and not designed to carry the increased demand of downtown Charlotte.  It is hard to do utility work or repair under an active rail line.

[Spartan]

A big part of the work was to replace the utilities under the roadway.  They were pretty old and not designed to carry the increased demand of downtown Charlotte.  It is hard to do utility work or repair under an active rail line.

 

Great point. That was around 1 year of the construction schedule if I recall correctly.

[dcharlotte]

That's still far too long to locate and relocate utilities. With that construction timeline it will get to the end of the line on schedule with Independence Blvd or 485 being upgraded. Is that something the city is willing to accept? 

[Niner National]

This probably won't be a popular opinion here, but i wish we got high quality, permanent looking step-on stations just like we have, but were simply running these:

 

 

Give it some gimmicky name so people don't just think of it as a bus line and I think it would be generally well received.

[Spartan]

That's still far too long to locate and relocate utilities. With that construction timeline it will get to the end of the line on schedule with Independence Blvd or 485 being upgraded. Is that something the city is willing to accept? 

 

What is an acceptable amount of time to remove and replace water and sewer mains on one of the oldest streets in the city?

[archiham04]

This probably won't be a popular opinion here, but i wish we got high quality, permanent looking step-on stations just like we have, but were simply running these:

 

 

Give it some gimmicky name so people don't just think of it as a bus line and I think it would be generally well received.

Consider this post popular with me.  I would highly endorse this on Central from Eastland to the Plaza.  Build it TODAY with very little disturbance to business.  If streetcar money comes sometime  in the next 15 years great! strap the sucker or send them to Balantyne.

[dcharlotte]

What is an acceptable amount of time to remove and replace water and sewer mains on one of the oldest streets in the city?

 

Given they shut down the street entirely to complete the work: six months. No construction timetable for this scope of work should take a year or more.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Must have been in another post where I suggested BRT and was getting beaten up over it.  I just think we could have something like the Healthline in Cleveland that has seen success with identical shelters, traffic signal prioritization and vehicles that work to mask the fact they are buses/look like streetcars.  The whole gold line would have been built for the cost of this 1.5 mile part.  Others had a valid point about long term maintenance cost which I have no idea about.  I was looking purely at the start up cost.

Edited June 5, 2015 by SouthEndCLT811

[archiham04]

Given they shut down the street entirely to complete the work: six months. No construction timetable for this scope of work should take a year or more.

Are we discussing the anticipated shut down on Central Ave?

[15895]

Must have been in another post where I suggested BRT and was getting beaten up over it. I just think we could have something like the Healthline in Cleveland that has seen success with identical shelters, traffic signal prioritization and vehicles that work to mask the fact they are buses/look like streetcars. The whole gold line would have been built for the cost of this 1.5 mile part. Others had a valid point about long term maintenance cost which I have no idea about. I was looking purely at the start up cost.

If we have BRT, it should be to a suburb where there is likely to be little TOD. I think we should just get articulated buses under the CATS Express brand and use it as a bandaid until rail gets up and going in certain corridors. Once the rail is up, shift the articulated buses elsewhere.

[southslider]

Besides, the current mayor purposefully drafted the very state legislation outlawing any buses like the one pictured.

[Niner National]

If we have BRT, it should be to a suburb where there is likely to be little TOD. I think we should just get articulated buses under the CATS Express brand and use it as a bandaid until rail gets up and going in certain corridors. Once the rail is up, shift the articulated buses elsewhere.

BRT is more like a replacement for light rail. A bus like the one pictured on the gold line wouldn't really be BRT since it wouldn't have a dedicated ROW.

 

Brand it as trackless streetcar and market the fudge out of it in a way that you never have it associated with the word bus.

Are we discussing the anticipated shut down on Central Ave?

1 lane each way was shut down on central today for some kind of work and traffic was miserable. Can't even imagine how terrible it'll be in the area when it is torn up entirely for street car.

[archiham04]

What if they closed Central during construction of the streetcar, but left open a bus lane?  

[15895]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article23533993.html

Streetcar won't go any faster than 16mph, probably not even that fast ...

[ah59396]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article23533993.html

Streetcar won't go any faster than 16mph, probably not even that fast ...

That's the speed of a slightly more than casual bike ride. Oh boy, this should be fun.

[15895]

That's the speed of a slightly more than casual bike ride. Oh boy, this should be fun.

To be fair, though, how fast does the Light Rail travel uptown? Probably not over 16MPH neither.

[ah59396]

To be fair, though, how fast does the Light Rail travel uptown? Probably not over 16MPH neither.

The light rail isn't driving down the road.

Edit: I know I come off negative, but it's not because I don't like streetcar or mass transit. In fact, it's the exact opposite. I love the idea of a strong streetcar network in the city and for that matter, mass transportation.

What I don't like, or at least what worries me, is a trolley that people are going to see going less than 16 mph, with a line of traffic slowly following it down Trade st. And then wonder how it cost $37 million. And then wonder why it took 3 years to build this. And worst of all, start to question all rail mass transit because they are a laymen and don't know the difference. So this whole thing is freaking me out a bit. I'm very worried.

Edited June 9, 2015 by ah59396

[15895]

The light rail isn't driving down the road.

Edit: I know I come off negative, but it's not because I don't like streetcar or mass transit. In fact, it's the exact opposite. I love the idea of a strong streetcar network in the city and for that matter, mass transportation.

What I don't like, or at least what worries me, is a trolley that people are going to see going less than 16 mph, with a line of traffic slowly following it down Trade st. And then wonder how it cost $37 million. And then wonder why it took 3 years to build this. And worst of all, start to question all rail mass transit because they are a laymen and don't know the difference. So this whole thing is freaking me out a bit. I'm very worried.

 

 

No, I feel the same way. That's why I originally posted the stated speed. It makes me nervous also about its perception. And I only care because I think this will be successful based on a fuller build out. But I plan on combatting people that claim how slow streetcar will be by using the blue lines speed uptown as a comparison.  (assuming the speeds will be similar).

 

I think streetcar, along with greenways and bike lanes, bike sharing, etc. all perform a vital role in mass transit. Not just roads and light rail. But hey... at least almost everyone in the entire Charlotte region is very pro light rail... that's a start.

Edited June 9, 2015 by AirNostrumMAD

[navigator319]

A lot a lot valid points in here, except the 0 fare part.  That's only for the starter line and once phase 2 comes it will cost $$

 

http://www.charlotteagenda.com/6161/does-the-charlotte-streetcar-sound-like-a-smart-investment/

[15895]

A lot a lot valid points in here, except the 0 fare part. That's only for the starter line and once phase 2 comes it will cost $$

http://www.charlotteagenda.com/6161/does-the-charlotte-streetcar-sound-like-a-smart-investment/

I don't like the article at all. No where have I read the gold like speed limit would be 16 MPH other than in uptown.

It read like a huge life story with a couple of facts over how much it cost

[kermit]

^ and the winging about cost per mile in comparison to phase one was also off base since phase two includes things like a storage yard, new vehicles and fare machines which supercheap phase 1 did not. In general any analysis of transit which only looks at the cost side of the ledger is a waste of ink/pixels/grey matter.

Complaining about the gold line is fine, but the complainers need to suggest an alternative way to move people on this corridor (remember, it needs to be significantly more (2x? 4x? 8x?) people than use busses on the route currently since we want to trigger densification).

Edited June 9, 2015 by kermit

[Niner National]

^ and the winging about cost per mile in comparison to phase one was also off base since phase two includes things like a storage yard, new vehicles and fare machines which supercheap phase 1 did not. In general any analysis of transit which only looks at the cost side of the ledger is a waste of ink/pixels/grey matter.

Complaining about the gold line is fine, but the complainers need to suggest an alternative way to move people on this corridor (remember, it need to be significantly more (2x? 4x? 8x?) people than use busses on the route currently since we want to trigger densification).

Aside from Elizabeth, how much opportunity is there for densification? It isn't running through a bunch of empty properties like the light rail line was when it was opened. Clearly there are some opportunities along the way, but I think it is more than fair to say anything close to Uptown is getting developed regardless of street car anyway.

 

I'm a firm believer we won't see this thing expanded beyond phase II for decades, so how much development potential does it really bring?

Edited June 9, 2015 by Niner National

[ah59396]

^ and the winging about cost per mile in comparison to phase one was also off base since phase two includes things like a storage yard, new vehicles and fare machines which supercheap phase 1 did not. In general any analysis of transit which only looks at the cost side of the ledger is a waste of ink/pixels/grey matter.

Complaining about the gold line is fine, but the complainers need to suggest an alternative way to move people on this corridor (remember, it need to be significantly more (2x? 4x? 8x?) people than use busses on the route currently since we want to trigger densification).

 

 

BRT with it's own dedicated lane and shelters with traffic control, as others have said.  Would have been a 1/10th of the cost and at least gone the speed limit.

 

I'd rather the city and county have gone all in on the street car and do a full build out all at once with modern rolling stock as opposed to this.  They could have put the BRT and stations in for the time being and used it as a study for a future street car line 10 years down the road after blue line build out, red line and additionally Gateway station completion.  Then with appropriate funding secured, build a full street car line.

 

There are many pro-rail people on here even questioning it.  Imagine what the anti-rail people are going to say.  While I know we shouldn't care, at the end of the day, their voice is equal to all of ours.

Edited June 9, 2015 by ah59396