Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[tozmervo]

I doubt those will be posted until the Gold Line is open for service, or at least as near as humanly possible to it being open. They've got links on the website, but they still point to the Gold Rush route.

[kermit]

^yea, but aren't we just six weeks (or so) from opening?

[tozmervo]

Right, but every sign would have to have a caveat that "gold line service starts June X." I'm happy for them to advertise the fact, but they have to be careful about misleading people that the service is already in place. In the past, they have released updated system maps the same day schedule changes go into effect for the bus system, etc.

[tozmervo]

Via MTC meeting notes:

 

CityLYNX Gold Line service will run from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. Monday-Thursday, 6 a.m. to 12 a.m. on Friday and weekend hours also. [Every 15 minutes]

 

Phase I will be free-fare, Phase II will transition to local-fare

[ajfunder]

^Phase II's fair should not be the full $2.20. Even at four miles, the line is too short to charge that amount. The streetcar is meant for hop on/hop off service to circulate people through Uptown, and $2.20 may effect the overall appeal of the service. Most of the recently constructed streetcar lines charge about $1.00. Maybe if the line ever reaches 10 miles the $2.20 fair would be appropriate, but even then it would be best to implement a fair free or reduced fair in the Uptown portion.

[tusculan]

^Phase II's fair should not be the full $2.20. Even at four miles, the line is too short to charge that amount. The streetcar is meant for hop on/hop off service to circulate people through Uptown, and $2.20 may effect the overall appeal of the service. Most of the recently constructed streetcar lines charge about $1.00. Maybe if the line ever reaches 10 miles the $2.20 fair would be appropriate, but even then it would be best to implement a fair free or reduced fair in the Uptown portion.

I think a fair way to do it would be a 5 censt per stop fare, with the area from CPCC to Gateway counting as one uptown stop. So if you were to ride the eventual whole eastern end to uptown - 95 cents The whole western end - 55 cents

Thus the whole route is 1.50 but it encourages local use, walking, and lots of uptown users.

[tozmervo]

Within the context of the meeting minutes, he may have been meaning to say that Phase II would be price like the community circulators, which is $.90 vs $2.20. It's hard to tell, but that does seem more appropriate than full local fare.

[kermit]

pricing the streetcar appropriately is going to be tough. Ideally transfers between the Gold and Blue Lines (and buses) will be seamless.

[js4life]

Keep in mind that the city is taking on full responsibility for the Gold Line & fares will make up a large percentage of the operational budget plus you don't pay less to ride the Blue Line from South end to Uptown which can be shorter than phase 2

Edited May 13, 2015 by js4life

[tusculan]

It seems that there are three alternatives for pricing schemes. Flat fare rates, zonal, or distance based. While I think that flat fare rates are enough to get people from South end to Uptown for work, I don't think it will encourage people coming in from Hawthorne to hop on the blue line to South End. I think they will just stay within walking distance of the gold line.

 

I think that uptown ought to be one flat fare - preferably free -  so that it actually is a network, and not a collection of individual lines.

[ajfunder]

Driving home from the Knights game tonight on Trade and I ended up following a streetcar from McDowell all the way to Presbyterian Hospital. The streetcar made all the station stops and was running without an escort of any kind.

[Guest]

Driving home from the Knights game tonight on Trade and I ended up following a streetcar from McDowell all the way to Presbyterian Hospital. The streetcar made all the station stops and was running without an escort of any kind.

And how was the experience? Slow, normal, or what?

[ajfunder]

The max speed was about 15mph. It stopped at the station at CPCC and Travis Avenue for about 15 seconds each. When it came to intersections it stopped before moving through them, I assume this was more of a precaution and not reflective of the eventual operating procedure. Wasn't to bad, but again this is coming from the perspective of a guy who has a huge interest in all things rail and therefore likely more patient then the average Charlotte driver.

Edited May 16, 2015 by ajfunder

[15895]

The average Charlotte driver hopefully learn quickly. I'd like to see a westardly light rail (Southpark to the airport via uptown) that operates in the street on Stonewall.

[navigator319]

The max speed was about 15mph. It stopped at the station at CPCC and Travis Avenue for about 15 seconds each. When it came to intersections it stopped before moving through them, I assume this was more of a precaution and not reflective of the eventual operating procedure. Wasn't to bad, but again this is coming from the perspective of a guy who has a huge interest in all things rail and therefore likely more patient then the average Charlotte driver.

 

Sounds excruciatingly painful to me actually

[tusculan]

I agree. 15 miles per hour is awful as a max speed plus all the stops - and lights! So, if we extrapolate to the full length of the system - 37 stops at 15 seconds each. That would equal 50 + minutes for the total phase 3 length, plus lights. That's awful. 

 

Does anyone know what full operational speed is supposed to be? 

 

Also, am I crazy, but at what speed is it too slow to be useful? Or better - at what speed is it too slow to be beneficial?

 

I saw that Atlanta has experienced this problem with its line. Where a reporter really wanted to like it, but wrote about how in total it saved here on average about 5-10 minutes vs walking - but while it did this, it felt so exasperatingly slow, that she wouldn't use it except if there was bad weather.

[tusculan]

Looking at the comparable data from Portland and Tucson the speed of this line seems to be the same. I guess this alters my idea of what a streetcar ought to be, because it is not a line for commuting, but only a local use line. TIL. If you don't live or work within a 3-4 minute walk of the line, there is no justification for using it.

[southslider]

Urban circulator, not rapid transit

[rancenc]

Here is a YouTube video of the new Atlanta street car system.  Of course they are using the modern cars (which eventually be used in Charlotte).  Based on this video these cars are traveling much faster then 15 miles per hr. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxH3Lz0w3cY

[Spartan]

I agree. 15 miles per hour is awful as a max speed plus all the stops - and lights! So, if we extrapolate to the full length of the system - 37 stops at 15 seconds each. That would equal 50 + minutes for the total phase 3 length, plus lights. That's awful. 

 

Does anyone know what full operational speed is supposed to be? 

 

Also, am I crazy, but at what speed is it too slow to be useful? Or better - at what speed is it too slow to be beneficial?

 

I saw that Atlanta has experienced this problem with its line. Where a reporter really wanted to like it, but wrote about how in total it saved here on average about 5-10 minutes vs walking - but while it did this, it felt so exasperatingly slow, that she wouldn't use it except if there was bad weather.

 

If you walk to get everywhere you need to go, 10 minutes is a huge amount of time savings. She must not walk for transportation purposes on a day to day basis. 

[tusculan]

If you walk to get everywhere you need to go, 10 minutes is a huge amount of time savings. She must not walk for transportation purposes on a day to day basis. 

Actually, here are the two stories that she wrote. Apparently, she would walk about 10 minutes to the Streetcar, ride it for 10 (to go about a mile), and walk 10 to work. Of course, riding the streetcar saved her time from walking directly to work - around 45 minutes directly. But only if she didn't have to wait for the streetcar to arrive.

http://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/atlanta-streetcar-good-tourists-regular-commuters/

 

http://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/six-lessons-from-riding-the-atlanta-streetcar-for-eight-weeks/

[dcharlotte]

Actually, here are the two stories that she wrote. Apparently, she would walk about 10 minutes to the Streetcar, ride it for 10 (to go about a mile), and walk 10 to work. Of course, riding the streetcar saved her time from walking directly to work - around 45 minutes directly. But only if she didn't have to wait for the streetcar to arrive.

http://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/atlanta-streetcar-good-tourists-regular-commuters/

 

http://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/six-lessons-from-riding-the-atlanta-streetcar-for-eight-weeks/

 

In this space Atlanta can provide a GREAT warning to Charlotte. The city built a streetcar from nowhere to nowhere. No nodes are connected and it is on a small loop that is a block wide in most areas. The streetcar is slow, clogged in traffic, and cumbersome. Since the streetcar goes next to the on-ramp to the connector and takes many turns it is often caught behind cars who are in an intersection, parked illegally, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The city does not do a good job of enforcing anything and the system is a huge joke within the region.

 

Charlotte will have to fight this image issue, too.

 

Sadly, downtown Atlanta will not see any investment this real estate cycle. Not due to the streetcar, but because the region has abandoned the area. 

Here is the danger to putting a streetcar to an area where investment will NOT come:

 

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/opinion/a-streetcar-named-denial/nmJZM/

[tusculan]

In this space Atlanta can provide a GREAT warning to Charlotte. The city built a streetcar from nowhere to nowhere. No nodes are connected and it is on a small loop that is a block wide in most areas. The streetcar is slow, clogged in traffic, and cumbersome. Since the streetcar goes next to the on-ramp to the connector and takes many turns it is often caught behind cars who are in an intersection, parked illegally, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The city does not do a good job of enforcing anything and the system is a huge joke within the region.

 

Charlotte will have to fight this image issue, too.

 

Sadly, downtown Atlanta will not see any investment this real estate cycle. Not due to the streetcar, but because the region has abandoned the area. 

Here is the danger to putting a streetcar to an area where investment will NOT come:

 

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/opinion/a-streetcar-named-denial/nmJZM/

As this is behind a paywall, but really important, can you summarize?

[dcharlotte]

1. The streetcar goes from nowhere to nowhere.

2. The streetcar is slow

3. The user experience is very uncomfortable while it is free and nobody will want to pay for this experience

4. Typical transit article about cost overruns but they misjudged the operational budget

5. Ridership projections are lower than expected

[tusculan]

So, you say that ridership is low - from what I gleaned from other sources, it is seen mostly as a tourist gimmick - because it doesn't connect transit nodes. 

 

But in the above discussion, it was mentioned by others that it is to be an urban circulator/ i.e. not for transit. So how am I supposed to reconcile these accounts. One argues its not used because its poor at transit, and the other that its not for transit.....What am I missing here?