Norfolk Stores and Retail and Resturants

[Chesapeake Pirate]

Finally got to eat at Boot last night -- fine food, but just because there is pasta on the menu, it doesn't make it an Italian restaurant. If it was, there would be risottos and gnocci on the primi menu. The ribollita I had was OK, but was missing the bread that you put in the day before, then "re-boil" (guess what ribollita means in Italian?). The secondi were indistinguishable from any main courses at any other TW restaurant at the same price point -- just like calling your sides "contorni" doesn't make it Italian. Conspicious absence of Italian wines also.

This is all a long intro into my major dissatisfaction with the TW region. I was talking to an old friend who had avoided this place like the plague during his Navy career. He asked how I was liking it. I said I was amazed at how "conservative" it was here. He asked what I meant -- I said there was a low tolerance here was risk -- of any sort. He said on that point, he would agree -- that his impression was that there was a real feeling here of "tell me what I need to think". I see it playing out in almost every sector here, and the restaurants are just a microcosm -- sort of the temperature of the patient. You can take the menu of almost any restaurant with mains > $15, take off the names, and you couldn't tell them apart. There isn't a true high end Italian restaurant here -- La Sirena comes close, but misses. Zinc Brasserie was supposed to be a brasserie, but the true brasserie classic dishes (choucroute, duck confit) were just daily specials, not regulars. Now, Todd Jurich is out of it, and it is "Zinc Kitchen". Same thing about the Naro VB -- the Great Neck crowd whined about driving to Colley, so those guys opened a VB location. No patronage.

Same thing in business -- no entrepreneural drive. Trust me -- I lived in Austin for 11 years, so I know what that drive looks like. Just doens't exist here, and I don't see how you can nurture it. The restaurant thing is just the thermometer.

I have yet to eat at The Boot, but plan to soon. As far as your disastisfaction with the TW region and how conservative it is, I am sorry you are so disappointed. This area is a fine area with many wonderful people and many wonderful places to go and things to do. Sure it suffers from identity issues and transportation and geographical issues, and that has an impact on its vitality. I have lived here for 30 years and seen a lot of great things happen. This is the headquarters of the Atlantic Fleet, not Silicon Valley. People repair ships here and build pickup trucks here. Well, they used to build pickup trucks here. This is not the state capital, and the area has it's share of poverty caused in large part by well meaning liberal great society programs. Sorry your appetite has to endure the local cuisine. I just loved the absolutely authentic philly cheesesteak I had last week at the grill on Grace Street downtown.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Chesapeake Pirate

[rusthebuss]

Finally got to eat at Boot last night -- fine food, but just because there is pasta on the menu, it doesn't make it an Italian restaurant. If it was, there would be risottos and gnocci on the primi menu. The ribollita I had was OK, but was missing the bread that you put in the day before, then "re-boil" (guess what ribollita means in Italian?). The secondi were indistinguishable from any main courses at any other TW restaurant at the same price point -- just like calling your sides "contorni" doesn't make it Italian. Conspicious absence of Italian wines also.

This is all a long intro into my major dissatisfaction with the TW region. I was talking to an old friend who had avoided this place like the plague during his Navy career. He asked how I was liking it. I said I was amazed at how "conservative" it was here. He asked what I meant -- I said there was a low tolerance here for risk -- of any sort. He said on that point, he would agree -- that his impression was that there was a real feeling here of "tell me what I need to think". I see it playing out in almost every sector here, and the restaurants are just a microcosm -- sort of the temperature of the patient. You can take the menu of almost any restaurant with mains > $15, take off the names, and you couldn't tell them apart. There isn't a true high end Italian restaurant here -- La Sirena comes close, but misses. Zinc Brasserie was supposed to be a brasserie, but the true brasserie classic dishes (choucroute, duck confit) were just daily specials, not regulars. Now, Todd Jurich is out of it, and it is "Zinc Kitchen". Same thing about the Naro VB -- the Great Neck crowd whined about driving to Colley, so those guys opened a VB location. No patronage.

Same thing in business -- no entrepreneural drive. Trust me -- I lived in Austin for 11 years, so I know what that drive looks like. Just doesn't exist here, and I don't see how you can nurture it. The restaurant thing is just the thermometer.

Well you can always move back to Austin!

[Former Resident of HR]

This is all a long intro into my major dissatisfaction with the TW region. I was talking to an old friend who had avoided this place like the plague during his Navy career. He asked how I was liking it. I said I was amazed at how "conservative" it was here. He asked what I meant -- I said there was a low tolerance here for risk -- of any sort. He said on that point, he would agree -- that his impression was that there was a real feeling here of "tell me what I need to think". I see it playing out in almost every sector here, and the restaurants are just a microcosm -- sort of the temperature of the patient. You can take the menu of almost any restaurant with mains > $15, take off the names, and you couldn't tell them apart. There isn't a true high end Italian restaurant here -- La Sirena comes close, but misses. Zinc Brasserie was supposed to be a brasserie, but the true brasserie classic dishes (choucroute, duck confit) were just daily specials, not regulars. Now, Todd Jurich is out of it, and it is "Zinc Kitchen". Same thing about the Naro VB -- the Great Neck crowd whined about driving to Colley, so those guys opened a VB location. No patronage.

Same thing in business -- no entrepreneural drive. Trust me -- I lived in Austin for 11 years, so I know what that drive looks like. Just doesn't exist here, and I don't see how you can nurture it. The restaurant thing is just the thermometer.

Well this area is what it is. It's pretty middle of the road, bread and butter crowd. However, HR is also very close to quite a few areas that boast a more robust dining experience. My advice to you would be to save some of that extra money that you would be spending if you lived in NYC/DC and make frequent weekend visits to great places located within a day's drive/short flight away: New York, DC, Philadelphia, Richmond, even Montreal and Atlanta are driveable. Austin is a great town but it is an oasis in the middle of Texas, truth be told. California has tons of cool places to eat, but a house there pushes the million mark.

Bottom line is that it is your perception of reality that is reality. Probably the number one reason that I am happy to no longer be in the military is all of my co-workers ALWAYS complaining about how HR was not as good as their last duty station/hometown. When I was in Europe, people complained there as well. When you choose to be miserable, you will be miserable. It just gets old to some of us that enjoy our lives here...

[Padman]

I don't mind the conservativism of the area so much. We have many good things to conserve. But I do mind the blind intolerance, the ignorance, the mediocrity and the mindless authoritarianism that I routinely encounter here. I strongly urge people who are frustrated with those attributes to keep on fighting back and help make this a more well rounded culture. I'm not leaving.

[scm]

Well you can always move back to Austin!

NO way -- I would miss all of you Redskin fans that provide me with the annual chuckles over how this is the year they will sweep the Cowboys. What is your team over the last five years? 4-6 against the five time Super Bowl Champions?

Jerry Jones may be an idiot, but at least he isn't the biggest idiot NFL owner. Dan Snyder has a lock on that title.

If you were a George Strait fan, then you'd know why I can't go back.

[johnk812]

Finally got to eat at Boot last night -- fine food, but just because there is pasta on the menu, it doesn't make it an Italian restaurant. If it was, there would be risottos and gnocci on the primi menu. The ribollita I had was OK, but was missing the bread that you put in the day before, then "re-boil" (guess what ribollita means in Italian?). The secondi were indistinguishable from any main courses at any other TW restaurant at the same price point -- just like calling your sides "contorni" doesn't make it Italian. Conspicious absence of Italian wines also.

This is all a long intro into my major dissatisfaction with the TW region. I was talking to an old friend who had avoided this place like the plague during his Navy career. He asked how I was liking it. I said I was amazed at how "conservative" it was here. He asked what I meant -- I said there was a low tolerance here for risk -- of any sort. He said on that point, he would agree -- that his impression was that there was a real feeling here of "tell me what I need to think". I see it playing out in almost every sector here, and the restaurants are just a microcosm -- sort of the temperature of the patient. You can take the menu of almost any restaurant with mains > $15, take off the names, and you couldn't tell them apart. There isn't a true high end Italian restaurant here -- La Sirena comes close, but misses. Zinc Brasserie was supposed to be a brasserie, but the true brasserie classic dishes (choucroute, duck confit) were just daily specials, not regulars. Now, Todd Jurich is out of it, and it is "Zinc Kitchen". Same thing about the Naro VB -- the Great Neck crowd whined about driving to Colley, so those guys opened a VB location. No patronage.

Same thing in business -- no entrepreneural drive. Trust me -- I lived in Austin for 11 years, so I know what that drive looks like. Just doesn't exist here, and I don't see how you can nurture it. The restaurant thing is just the thermometer.

Edited June 15, 2007 by johnk812

[vdogg]

I don't mind the conservativism of the area so much. We have many good things to conserve. But I do mind the blind intolerance, the ignorance, the mediocrity and the mindless authoritarianism that I routinely encounter here. I strongly urge people who are frustrated with those attributes to keep on fighting back and help make this a more well rounded culture. I'm not leaving.

Amen. This is quite a conservative area and truth be told, it chaffes me a bit from time to time. That doesn't mean I want to leave. I prefer to stay and make my mark and try to make things better from the inside. This is a great area which has truly grown on me but there are some things that I think can change. Expressing that opinion doesn't necessarily mean you need to "leave the area". And with that I urge everyone to get back to topic and leave the personal insults for other forums.

[Sky06]

I throughly disagree with the comments on conservativism and "bread and butter" perspective in the local restaurant scene. There are tons of new restaurants opeining regurlarly around here that provide a tremendous variety of food preparation styles and that fill a gap that wasn't here previously. There's clearly an endless array of eclectic restaurants across the region, not only at the Beach and Norfolk but more and more on the Peninsula. It bothers me that people don't know about these place, because it shows that many people are simply overlooking them. Pick up a copy of Hampton Roads magazine. Every issue is filled with articles and ads on new resturants most of us have never heard of before and that represent the newest trends. We may be conservative in other areas, but the resturant business is absolutely not one of them. Please don't give me a "I'm not criticizing, just that we don't have much variety." I completely disagree. Thing have changed 180 degrees over the last several years. If all you do is go to Hardees for lunch, don't waste your time arguing.

[Padman]

I have to agree that the restaurant scene has improved over the last 10 years or so. The new national chain retaurants haven't impressed me very much. but they've provided some competition for the locals. I think that is forcing them to be somewhat more competitive.

[scm]

Please don't give me a "I'm not criticizing, just that we don't have much variety." I completely disagree. Thing have changed 180 degrees over the last several years. If all you do is go to Hardees for lunch, don't waste your time arguing.

Well, if all you do is go to Hardee's, then the original comment about every menu with mains > $15 probably doesn't apply, now does it?

As far as excellence in dining in HR, then let's look at an impartial source like the Zagat guide -- take the cities in our population group (leave out Las Vegas -- tourism will skew the results) and see how many Zagat rated restaurants are w/in 25 miles. San Jose -- 116, Columbus -- 83, Indianapolis - 0, Norfolk/VB -- 0, Providence, RI -- 40, Charlotte -- 51, Austin -- 220. Pretty telling.

I go back to my original statement -- take all of the restaurants with main courses > $15 and there isn't a nickels worth of difference in the menus. That is all I said -- didn't say there weren't a variety of restaurants, just said that the top end were pretty homogeneous and indicative of a clientele that didn't reward risk takers. I've been in 'em all -- from Zoe's and Terrapin at the Beach, to Vintage Tavern in Suffolk -- and all points in between (including Cafe Europa, Todd's, B&B, 456 Fish and Bobbywood). I stand by that statement and defy one of you to prove me wrong. I will admit I don't get to WB much. Didn't say I didn't like them, just said they were all the same.

[New England Transplant]

Certainly this place isn't the right place for everyone. However, with regards to overall quality of life, affordability, amentities, and opportunities, it is consistently in the top 20 of over 480 metropolitan areas. The Norfolk-Newport News-Virginia Beach area is really solid. I recommend you look at city rankings (cities to cities, Forbes etc.). You might be surprised by how outside, objectve, number crunchers look at our region. It is pretty darn positive.

[cpeakesqr]

Certainly this place isn't the right place for everyone. However, with regards to overall quality of life, affordability, amentities, and opportunities, it is consistently in the top 20 of over 480 metropolitan areas. The Norfolk-Newport News-Virginia Beach area is really solid. I recommend you look at city rankings (cities to cities, Forbes etc.). You might be surprised by how outside, objectve, number crunchers look at our region. It is pretty darn positive.

They're discussing the quality and creativity of restaurants... no one said HR is a bad place to live. Let's not turn this into a much more volatile topic...

[wrldcoupe4]

As far as excellence in dining in HR, then let's look at an impartial source like the Zagat guide -- take the cities in our population group (leave out Las Vegas -- tourism will skew the results) and see how many Zagat rated restaurants are w/in 25 miles. San Jose -- 116, Columbus -- 83, Indianapolis - 0, Norfolk/VB -- 0, Providence, RI -- 40, Charlotte -- 51, Austin -- 220. Pretty telling.

Does Zagat even cover restaurants in the Tidewater area? It seems that they only look at the DC area as far as Virginia goes.

Any 4 or 5-diamond restaurants in the area?

Edited June 15, 2007 by wrldcoupe4

[PeninsulaKiddo]

An interesting and kind-of related sidenote is that the Tapas Lounge in Newport News is closed It's unfortunate because I think it really was a great divergence from the otherwise shrug-worthy selection on the Peninsula.

I kind of agree with you scm, at least in reference to the Peninsula, but again (reiterating your words) that is not a reflection of my feelings for Hampton Roads itself.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

Well, if all you do is go to Hardee's, then the original comment about every menu with mains > $15 probably doesn't apply, now does it?

As far as excellence in dining in HR, then let's look at an impartial source like the Zagat guide -- take the cities in our population group (leave out Las Vegas -- tourism will skew the results) and see how many Zagat rated restaurants are w/in 25 miles. San Jose -- 116, Columbus -- 83, Indianapolis - 0, Norfolk/VB -- 0, Providence, RI -- 40, Charlotte -- 51, Austin -- 220. Pretty telling.

I go back to my original statement -- take all of the restaurants with main courses > $15 and there isn't a nickels worth of difference in the menus. That is all I said -- didn't say there weren't a variety of restaurants, just said that the top end were pretty homogeneous and indicative of a clientele that didn't reward risk takers. I've been in 'em all -- from Zoe's and Terrapin at the Beach, to Vintage Tavern in Suffolk -- and all points in between (including Cafe Europa, Todd's, B&B, 456 Fish and Bobbywood). I stand by that statement and defy one of you to prove me wrong. I will admit I don't get to WB much. Didn't say I didn't like them, just said they were all the same.

It's pretty funny that you would choose to cite an expert impartial source to condemn dining in HR, and not even have a clue that they don't even know where HR's is.

Following are the only cities they rate restaurants in in Virginia: Alexandria (48) Flint Hill (1) Purcellville (1) Annandale (2) Great Falls (3) Reston (12)

Arlington (79) Herndon (11) Rosslyn (4) Ashburn (3) Lansdowne (3) South Riding (1) Boyce (1) Leesburg (3) Springfield (3) Broadlands (1) Manassas (4) Sterling (1) Centreville (1) McLean (31) The Plains (1) Chantilly (2) Merrifield (1) Upperville (1) Culpeper (1) Middleburg (1) Vienna (9) Fairfax (18) Oakton (1) Washington (1) Falls Church (24) Paris (1) Woodbridge (2)

[wrldcoupe4]

It's pretty funny that you would choose to cite an expert impartial source to condemn dining in HR, and not even have a clue that they don't even know where HR's is.

Following are the only cities they rate restaurants in in Virginia: Alexandria (48) Flint Hill (1) Purcellville (1) Annandale (2) Great Falls (3) Reston (12)

Arlington (79) Herndon (11) Rosslyn (4) Ashburn (3) Lansdowne (3) South Riding (1) Boyce (1) Leesburg (3) Springfield (3) Broadlands (1) Manassas (4) Sterling (1) Centreville (1) McLean (31) The Plains (1) Chantilly (2) Merrifield (1) Upperville (1) Culpeper (1) Middleburg (1) Vienna (9) Fairfax (18) Oakton (1) Washington (1) Falls Church (24) Paris (1) Woodbridge (2)

That's what I was thinking, and these are only included as they are all part of the DC area. I think Zagat covers only 70 or so cities.

[burt]

What about some of the restaurants on the boardwalk -- like at the new Hilton and the old Cavalier? Aren't they considered pretty neat? And while many turn up their noses at chain operations, Ruth's Criss at VBTC ain't exactly chopped liver.

Isn't there a pretty charming dining spot in Freemason? Also, others in Ghent? What about the clubby looking space at the foot of Granby Street?

[cpeakesqr]

Recommend you this for solving your problems

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wizard of oz collectible

HUH?

[burt]

HUH?

I wouldn't open this on a bet!

Glad to see that it has been removed.

Edited June 16, 2007 by burt

[Padman]

Funny that you said Ruths Chris wasn't exactly "chopped liver" I tried dinner there last year and my well aged steak tasted to me just like liver...very tender and well prepared, but it really did taste like liver. My wife agreed. We like to dine just about anywhere in the world, so we're not a couple of hampsters right out of the cage.

As long as the criticism is honest, it's healthy. I like it here, but it really is a conservative area. The right wing is flyng the plane..that's why it sometimes only goes half as fast as it should. But it's going to stay that way for a long time and that's just the way it is. I used to live in Berkeley, CA and it wasn't so great politically either. It did get amusing at times, but the idealism frequently seemed to turn into a lot of misguided p.c. rules and regulations.

[vdogg]

Wow guys. One night away from the forum and all hell is breaking loose. Condescending tones aside (which is a fair statement scm, you cannot make comments in such a manner and not expect a healthy dose of it in return), we must all endeavor to respect eachother and eachothers opinions on this forum. That goes for all sides of this debate. If you guys are finding it difficult to do so then I kindly suggest just moving on to a different subject. I'm probably gonna start deleting comments if this goes on for too much longer. I probably should have done so earlier, but I guess I was hoping that things would have settled down by themselves by now.

[Padman]

You have to expect a certain amount of vitriol and hashing out of things in a thread about restaurants. After all, you are what you eat?

[usermel]

You have to expect a certain amount of vitriol and hashing out of things in a thread about restaurants. After all, you are what you eat?

I agree with your comment Padman. And my own comment outside of what you wrote is. We all must understand this. With homeless poeple and poverty all around us this is a silly debate. People from the start of time have complained about this area and if there not from here mainly. Talking about how slow it is here and it not being enough to do.

I take these comments with a grain of salt and tend to now focus my energies on things that are more important like helping out some of the more needed spots in Norfolk like the Union Mission and charities in the area. Also getting involved with the younger kids and young adults in the area who need help to become more productive adults.

Dont get me wrong I understand how people putting down our area can hurt but, we have bigger fish to fry. This area as anyone can see is changing for the better with all the new developments going up in the next 5-10 years. I say that to say this fun and enjoyment is more on our personal view of were we are opposed to what the perception is. I go to Miami at least 2 times a year and can say its mostly mental why people think its so great, its a nice place dont get me wrong but, the rep is what carries it over.

Fellow Norfolk-Va Beach-Hampton metro folks lets not let the out of towners still our joy and love for were we are from. Our area is very pretty in my eyes and for me thats all that matters.

Love GOD not money!

[tombarnes]

The restaurant scene in Tidewater is worlds away from where it was just a few years ago. Give it time, and it will grow even more. The choices have grown almost exponentially in the past few years. While Zagat may not yet be rating restaurants in the area, this may come in a few years. The restaurant scene in this area is healthy and is improving almost daily.

[vdogg]

HUH?

I'm so tired of chasing these damn spammers around I don't know what to do. We ban 3 and 10 more pop up in their place. It's been really bad this week, I don't know what gives. Because they are such prolific posters (one that was banned this week was able to make about 27 posts in the span of a few minutes) it gets hard for us to keep up sometimes. If you guys see suspicious comments like that please hit the "!Report" button which will bring it to the attention of all moderators on the site and it can be promptly removed. I'll probably make a sticky about this a little later.