Is ZOI House Orlando dead?

[Ivanhoe]

Technically, Orlando is swimming in billion dollar projects also. None of which  exist downtown.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

6 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Technically, Orlando is swimming in billion dollar projects also. None of which  exist downtown.

Ehhh Orlando is splashing in the kiddie pool 

[Ivanhoe]

2 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Ehhh Orlando is splashing in the kiddie pool 

It depends on your view. 
DTO, I assume, everyone thinks it depressed.

[jrs2]

On 10/29/2023 at 1:14 AM, JFW657 said:

Never was a fan of that thing.

Gaudy, tacky and looked like it was trying too hard.

Looked like a giant wicker trash can.

 

Besides, even many of the survivors say it's unnecessary and exploitive.

Build a tasteful, understated memorial on the site and be happy with it. 

Gee, I just can't figure out why that is....  

Hmmmmmmmm....... 

great skyline shots.  In the Miami one, about two inches from the right, there should be Aston Martin Tower, illuminated in white light (like Wrigley Building), and the second tallest in Miami (until Waldorf tops off to the north of there).

The Boom almost had investors believing in the Lake Eola downtown park thing...but Orlando was two steps too late getting it started and only got 1/4 the projects that were actually proposed- some with real money backing them.  The NORA developers were one project, and the Tradition Towers project/U-Club was another (in lieu of former Modera/U-Club)...

Everyone needs to realize the "Miami" thing has been a thing for a hundred years.  Even during the era of Scarface and Miami Vice, there was buku investment then- but only in the last twenty years or so did the real height thing start to catch on.  Orlando does not have that percolating maturity in that kind of real estate yet.  I was hoping the Boom would have fast tracked that by surrounding Eola with skyscrapers and really reinforcing the sense of "place" even more.  A new condo means it's "worth" building there, right?  At least as perception goes. 

That being said, 520, Radius, the Hilton there, Skyhouse are the most recent projects near Eola to keep that momentum.  Skyhouse was key because that's like a chain.  Same with Society (which is farther away).  But, when outside delopers look at the portfolios of the Society and Skyhouse people and they see "Orlando" as part of them, that speaks volumes.  It really does...  Might as well throw in the downtown Publix location as well.  I think that was a factor in Earthfare coming to Novel...in 2019...

[jrs2]

19 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

It depends on your view. 
DTO, I assume, everyone thinks it depressed.

I will tell you that yes, DTO is kinda on life support.

I replied to @JFW657but I left out the loss of a couple of chain businesses that took "Orlando/DTO" out of their respective portfolios:  Walgreens, Earthfare, and Wahlburgers.  I was hoping the Wahlburgers location would add to DTO's exposure.  But the lockdowns killed Wahlburgers and Earthfare- they preemptively closed up at the start of 2020 while Wahlburgers tried to ride it out.  

That being said, we saw the opening of AC Marriott at South & Garland and Hilton Garden/Home 2 Suites on Livingston.  And I always see valet and patron activity at both locations.

If that project at Lake St. & Pine St gets built with the JW Marriott, that would be huge...for perception's sake, if nothing else.

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Everyone needs to realize the "Miami" thing has been a thing for a hundred years.  Even during the era of Scarface and Miami Vice, there was buku investment then- but only in the last twenty years or so did the real height thing start to catch on.  Orlando does not have that percolating maturity in that kind of real estate yet.  I was hoping the Boom would have fast tracked that by surrounding Eola with skyscrapers and really reinforcing the sense of "place" even more.  A new condo means it's "worth" building there, right?  At least as perception goes. 

I kinda like Lake Eola the way it is.

I'd hate to see DTO turn into Miami. 

Couple more office towers in the 35 story range and a few more residential towers and I'm happy. 

[jrs2]

22 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Ehhh Orlando is splashing in the kiddie pool 

true, but that trend is shifting.  Remember, at present, Orlando is the only Florida city with a Ritz, Waldorf, Four Seasons, and, a Conrad Hilton (in one month).  That's just amazing to consider...when you're in the same state as Miami and Palm Beach.

Big money is coming here, as @Ivanhoestated...and the key I think is the proposed JW downtown which in essence is attracting those level of projects into a new submarket which those brands never really considered before. 

13 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I kinda like Lake Eola the way it is.

I'd hate to see DTO turn into Miami. 

Couple more office towers in the 35 story range and a few more residential towers and I'm happy. 

I think they can surround lake Eola with that height skyscraper from a few short blocks away (like Aspire) and still maintain Eola's charm.   If you look at Eola from the top of Aspire, it looks tiny; meaning, you get a good birds eye view-still, from that distance.  Radius should have been taller- or at least one of it's "wings."

[orlandouprise]

i was born and raised here... but I am so frustrated with this city's lack of foresight and progression that I am actively looking where else I can move to. I can't take it anymore. It's just one disappointment after another. There is no forward momentum in this town.

[Uncommon]

11 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

i was born and raised here... but I am so frustrated with this city's lack of foresight and progression that I am actively looking where else I can move to. I can't take it anymore. It's just one disappointment after another. There is no forward momentum in this town.

... sounds like a dumb reason to move.

[orlandouprise]

Really? Would you constantly want to feel disappointed by your surroundings? Knowing its not going to get any better? Id rather be in a place that intrigues me, captivates, motivates and inspires me, not underwhelms me... but that's just my .02

[GregoryMCSE]

Oh Zoi….

[orlandocity87]

15 hours ago, Uncommon said:

... sounds like a dumb reason to move.

I kind of agree with that statement, though. I've been here 18 years. If you told me in 2010 that by 2024 we still wouldn't have SunRail on weekends or to the airport, no OBX, no high(er)-speed rail to Tampa, no Lymmo expansions to SoDo and Ivanhoe, no entertainment district across from the Amway Center etc etc etc, I would have probably reconsidered investing as much in my house here as I did. (I won't go off-topic and rehash the same list of dead projects mentioned recently, but my personal list is in the dozens.) 

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, orlandocity87 said:

I kind of agree with that statement, though. I've been here 18 years. If you told me in 2010 that by 2024 we still wouldn't have SunRail on weekends or to the airport, no OBX, no high(er)-speed rail to Tampa, no Lymmo expansions to SoDo and Ivanhoe, no entertainment district across from the Amway Center etc etc etc, I would have probably reconsidered investing as much in my house here as I did. (I won't go off-topic and rehash the same list of dead projects mentioned recently, but my personal list is in the dozens.) 

I mean, that's a bit different. Look what thread we are in: Zoi House. I'm not saying the person I replied to feels this exact way, but considering moving because high rises and skyscrapers have fallen through is incredibly shortsighted and idiotic imo.

[orlandocity87]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

I mean, that's a bit different. Look what thread we are in: Zoi House. I'm not saying the person I replied to feels this exact way, but considering moving because high rises and skyscrapers have fallen through is incredibly shortsighted and idiotic imo.

No, I get it. The City of Orlando and Orange County aren't responsible for private development. But they are responsible for creating demand and promoting smart development. Orlando missed a whole swath of demographics in the last 10-15 years because we're focusing on infrastructure in the suburbs instead of in the core and core-adjacent neighborhoods. It's hard to tell how many young grads, retiring boomers, startups, headquarters, etc. aren't choosing Orlando because we're seen as suburban and stale. Zoi House might have been viable if demand and demographics were different. 

[jrs2]

19 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

Really? Would you constantly want to feel disappointed by your surroundings? Knowing its not going to get any better? Id rather be in a place that intrigues me, captivates, motivates and inspires me, not underwhelms me... but that's just my .02

Consider this:  I always rip on Orlando, always comparing it to places like NYC, Chi-town, etc.  It's an unfair comparison.  I told people a long time ago that they look at Orlando and judge it by its metro population when they should be judging it by its city population.  When you do that, you realize that its small;  It's doing ok for its size.

But one thing that I always focused on with regards to Orlando was that for its small city size, it has a sizeable metro, a very large airport, a very large and busy convention center, and the nation's (and maybe the world's) top tourism numbers.  The Attractions.  People want to visit Chicago to go to the Sears Tower, visit museums, etc.  Food is secondary.  Where would people rather go, Chicago or Orlando?  Well, Orlando.

Do you know how Democrats always rip on their own, but when a Republican does it they get defensive (and vice versa)?  Well, that's what locals do here.  We rip it down in an attempt to rationalize how it can get better.  On SkyscraperCity, when an outsider did it, it was mean spirited and tribal.  But that's all it is.  It's like a parent giving their kid a stern talking to.

CFLA has a lot to be proud of; it really does.  Just b/c it doesn't have an LRT going through trendy neighborhoods doesn't mean squat (although...it would be nice).  But consider this:  Orlando has a CRT that is almost as long as Tri-Rail.  Tri-Rail!  And that's a linear metro too!  Who would have ever considered that?  And now, we have an HSR that connects us to Miami.  Who has that sans the Acela line cities?  Nobody.  Nearby, we have the busiest cruise port in the world!  Busier than PortMiami (at least for 2022)! WTF?  And you've got people flocking here to be entertained- and the local offerings aren't so bad either.

As far as "skyscrapers" go...forget it.  The range of height we currently have is all this place will probably ever get.  That's ok so long as they keep filling in vacant parcels (they gotta fix some other stuff too, as we know).

Think of my perspective...Chicago-level height is in my blood...  But look at the whole picture...I've got colleagues that take Brightline from Miami to Orlando for work now (whenever they have client meetings, to see their relatives, etc.).  Orlando is now part of a network...a rail network; it has its perks; Miami has its...so does Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale... Orlando is part of that now (it always was, but now more so).  What does that mean?  it's like living in the suburbs when you commute into town.  Miami is the trendsetter and leader on many fronts- Orlando on many others.  Both are symbiotic to one another.  That's how I see it.

Pretty soon, add Tampa to that list (as if it isn't on that list already).  And on the rail front, Sunrail is seriously leaning towards a Polk expansion.  That's pretty hardcore adding a 4th county to the partner list.

When you list the "nodes" here of things worth seeing/doing, this place is hard to top: WDW, Universal, Millennia Mall, Park Avenue, Winter Garden, Lake Nona, I-Drive, the OCCC events, MCO, DTO, DPAC, Mt. Dora, Sanford, NBA, NASCAR, Concerts, EDC, etc...and a short jaunt to the beaches.  CFLA collectively has a cornucopia of goodness here.  It may not all be in DTO, but with some of these other cities, their stuff isn't all in their downtowns either. 

[orlandouprise]

7 hours ago, Uncommon said:

I mean, that's a bit different. Look what thread we are in: Zoi House. I'm not saying the person I replied to feels this exact way, but considering moving because high rises and skyscrapers have fallen through is incredibly shortsighted and idiotic imo.

this has ZERO to do with some f$ckn dead condo building regardless of what thread its written in. Its incredibly frustrating the lack of forward movement in this town. The apathy from even the politicians makes me want to rip my hair out. But I have come to the realization that is all Orlando can give and wants be in the forseeable future. I want more. instead of wishing this place changes till Im blue in the face... why not just move somewhere that already checks those boxes.  

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

this has ZERO to do with some f$ckn dead condo building regardless of what thread its written in. Its incredibly frustrating the lack of forward movement in this town. The apathy from even the politicians makes me want to rip my hair out. But I have come to the realization that is all Orlando can give and wants be in the forseeable future. I want more. instead of wishing this place changes till Im blue in the face... why not just move somewhere that already checks those boxes.  

My question is, what do you mean by forward movement? 

How and in which areas or ways are we not moving forward that we should be? 

What would moving forward encompass? 

[Uncommon]

8 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

this has ZERO to do with some f$ckn dead condo building regardless of what thread its written in. Its incredibly frustrating the lack of forward movement in this town. The apathy from even the politicians makes me want to rip my hair out. But I have come to the realization that is all Orlando can give and wants be in the forseeable future. I want more. instead of wishing this place changes till Im blue in the face... why not just move somewhere that already checks those boxes.  

You want more what? If the answer isn't skyscrapers, then wtf is it?

[orlandocity87]

13 hours ago, jrs2 said:

But one thing that I always focused on with regards to Orlando was that for its small city size, it has a sizeable metro, a very large airport, a very large and busy convention center, and the nation's (and maybe the world's) top tourism numbers.  The Attractions. 

Nearby, we have the busiest cruise port in the world!  

When you list the "nodes" here of things worth seeing/doing, this place is hard to top: WDW, Universal, Millennia Mall, Park Avenue, Winter Garden, Lake Nona, I-Drive, the OCCC events, MCO, DTO, DPAC, Mt. Dora, Sanford, NBA, NASCAR, Concerts, EDC, etc...and a short jaunt to the beaches. 

I like your points about city size vs. metro size. And your comparisons with SunRail/Tri-Rail and Brightline/Acela are good.

Nonetheless, I've heard nearly two decades of talk about diversifying our economy, promoting traditional main streets, expanding "last mile" transportation options, etc. But what's my reward for living within the City limits, paying City and County taxes, having my AirBnB guests pay rental and tourism development taxes on their stays, investing heavily in a historic home, and supporting local businesses?

We're supposed to be "Unbelievably Real," but there's no reward for trying to keep Orlando authentic. 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, orlandocity87 said:

I like your points about city size vs. metro size. And your comparisons with SunRail/Tri-Rail and Brightline/Acela are good.

Nonetheless, I've heard nearly two decades of talk about diversifying our economy, promoting traditional main streets, expanding "last mile" transportation options, etc. But what's my reward for living within the City limits, paying City and County taxes, having my AirBnB guests pay rental and tourism development taxes on their stays, investing heavily in a historic home, and supporting local businesses?

We're supposed to be "Unbelievably Real," but there's no reward for trying to keep Orlando authentic. 

Transportation-wise, I think there will be quicker changes now, because Sunrail is a decade old, and BL offers those last mile perks; both them and FDOT can come up with workable solutions for Sunrail. 

The City can be expensive.  In NE Ohio, people fight tooth and nail against annexation when it comes up...

But I think the best city where most everything is integrated is NYC, but its expensive.  

Diversifying the economy is tough.  Seminole does a good job of it however.  Too many companies- even local ones, stay clear of DTO. We were lucky to get EA to move from Maitland Center...  Chicago has done a good job of luring companies downtown.

[orlandocity87]

3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Transportation-wise, I think there will be quicker changes now, because Sunrail is a decade old, and BL offers those last mile perks; both them and FDOT can come up with workable solutions for Sunrail. 

I sure hope we see an acceleration in improvements. 

Unfortunately, Brightline has already changed its Premium Class 10-mile Uber pickup perk to 5 miles. Downtown Orlando is 13+ miles from MCO. 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, orlandocity87 said:

I sure hope we see an acceleration in improvements. 

Unfortunately, Brightline has already changed its Premium Class 10-mile Uber pickup perk to 5 miles. Downtown Orlando is 13+ miles from MCO. 

if anything...they really need to focus on extending Sunrail to MCO and putting that station right there underneath the Intermodal where @shardoonor @codypetor @aenthad pointed out a couple of months back in that thread.  If they can devote like the $200-250M to doing that, so many problems will be alleviated ala ridership, frequency, and even those last mile potential options.   I hope that link isn't exclusively relying on the success of Sunshine Corridor getting funded.  If they could bifurcate the proposal to maybe two phases, it would be huge. 

As an FYI, Metrorail in Miami didn't connect to MIA until 2012 or so when they finished the spur to The MIC, which had just opened.  TriRail already had a line that ended at MIA (where The MIC currently sits), but they had to redo the line and reopen it at The MIC a couple of years after Metrorail opened.  Orlando can rise to that level of connectivity if they can get that spur built.  From that point on is frosting on the cake...

TPA, by comparison, has already built a "MIC" of its own, btw, near International Plaza. but with no rail serving it...yet.  And BL tentatively plans on a Westshore station, but they would have to go north of there at least a couple of miles or more to get to TPA property.  I don't know if they can do it.

In Chicago by comparison, CTA or The El, didn't go to O'Hare until like the early 1990's.  Can you believe that? With all the miles of Heavy Rail and CRT (METRA) in that region to not have a direct link until then is just...unthinkable...  They also didn't get a CTA link to Midway until like the 2000's.   Wow, right?  Now they have the two airports and McCormick Place connected with CTA.  Orlando can come close to that achievement with Sunshine Corridor.

I think the Airport Connector is the key; more ridership as a result.  With more ridership comes more options.  And who knows, if you are a BL passenger, maybe BL would consider giving you that 5-mile UBER from a Sunrail Station as well if they could partner on that.

And, tying all of this to this particular thread...I believe that the more ridership that BL gets under its belt, the more money I see coming into CFLA from it...  And another thing...Sunrail viewed the two hospitals as major potential trip generators.  Well, there are also a lot of employees at MCO too.

Orlando is in a really great position right now...I think its gonna turn the corner soon (DTO)...

[Ivanhoe]

Orlando is not splashing in the kiddie pool. The leadership is neglecting the city center.

[jrs2]

On 10/31/2023 at 8:59 PM, orlandouprise said:

this has ZERO to do with some f$ckn dead condo building regardless of what thread its written in. Its incredibly frustrating the lack of forward movement in this town. The apathy from even the politicians makes me want to rip my hair out. But I have come to the realization that is all Orlando can give and wants be in the forseeable future. I want more. instead of wishing this place changes till Im blue in the face... why not just move somewhere that already checks those boxes.  

those are very valid points.  I was in Manhattan earlier this year for the first time since covid hit.  I was stunned at all the development that they built over the past three years in Midtown, Hudson Yards, Queens...All of those buildings could have gone to a new city and its skyline would rival NYC's and Chicago's.  Nashville is moving pretty quickly as well, BTW, with development.  And so is Miami-Dade. 

Meanwhile DTO has more or less stagnated.  While we wait and see if the Cambria Suites "project" is really going to get built, the bulk of all of DTO's downtown buildings is already u/c elsewhere.  In DTO, the development has come in phases...the Boom, the Post-Boom such as it was...and the present.  Buddy has good "vision" in getting a certain type of project built, but, not really at luring companies downtown.  Under his watch The Travelers left for Baldwin Park.  The did get Red Lobster to stay in CNL, but I can't speak to any incentives DTO gave them to do so.  EA came to CV, but did DTO give incentives or did Ustler just give them a good rent?  Dunno.

Buddy's "types" of projects have been perceived catalyst projects, like Amway, DPAC, CV, Orlando City Soccer, etc.  But places like Chicago paid Boeing $$$ to move from Seattle.  Yep.  They tried to lure JetBlue here, but that was merely a power play from JetBlue to get more stuff from NYC.  It was a miss.  Mica was responsible for Sunrail, but, he needed partners for it to work, so Buddy gets props for being a partner with that project- he just does.

So now, the only projects I can think of that were built as a result of those catalyst projects combined, I would say, were: CSP I (Sunrail/Amway), Society (Sunrail), Crescent (Sunrail), Orthopedic and Training/Magic (Amway), EA (CV).  The UCF and Valencia presence was part of the bones of CV; EA was a "win" for CV.  I don't know if the Mayor's Office was responsible for the OUC HQ and redevelopment of their old HQ into Aloft Hotel.  And on the Amway note, The City did build a new OPD on OBT so that The Magic could build an entertainment complex, which hasn't happened.  I don't know if Radius/ Hilton are a result of Sunrail's proximity or not.

Did I miss something?  I think that's the extent of it.  I would add Publix to the mix, but Publix was a deal with Paramount and resulted from The Boom- I don't know how much credit any one person could get for The Boom happening in DTO, b/c a boom was happening everywhere.  Same with Novel Lucerne and Earthfare- did they get an incentive to open up shop there?  I don't know.  But the lockdowns killed Earthfare.

So I think Buddy has tried to put forth projects that in turn would bring in more private development.  I think that's been the bulk of his strategy.  

[dcluley98]

Creative Village was a really good idea that all of a sudden changed drastically with Covid. 

Now it is kind of a ghost town and scaled down projects. It is a shame that so much changed so quickly with what was a good plan initially to revitalize a part of the city that needed it.