Is ZOI House Orlando dead?

[Ivanhoe]

Sarasota plays to a very different demographic than DTO. If there is a comparison to be drawn locally I would say it is more in line with Winter Park or Maitland.

St. Pete is a better example of how far DTO has fallen behind.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

In Florida:

Miami

Ft .Lauderdale

Tampa

St Pete

then DTO

[Uncommon]

17 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

In Florida:

Miami

Ft .Lauderdale

Tampa

St Pete

then DTO

All that means is that Florida has some pretty good downtowns. For a city of its size, Orlando's downtown is pretty similar to cities in its weight class. The difference is older, more established cities have much larger downtowns but the vibrancy and walkability is similar or better in some cases. I'd take DTO over the downtowns of Sacramento, St. Louis and San Antonio. Charlotte, Kansas City, and Portland are bigger, better, or have light rail but are not necessarily more vibrant or walkable. I think DTO is in a pretty good place. Just because other cities in Florida are improving faster doesn't mean DTO is declining.

[orlandouprise]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

All that means is that Florida has some pretty good downtowns. For a city of its size, Orlando's downtown is pretty similar to cities in its weight class. The difference is older, more established cities have much larger downtowns but the vibrancy and walkability is similar or better in some cases. I'd take DTO over the downtowns of Sacramento, St. Louis and San Antonio. Charlotte, Kansas City, and Portland are bigger, better, or have light rail but are not necessarily more vibrant or walkable. I think DTO is in a pretty good place. Just because other cities in Florida are improving faster doesn't mean DTO is declining.

With all due respect, have you walked around DTO lately? The  CBD is a ghost town, CV is a ghost town and south eola is meh ok

And now we can only expect 4 more years of this because Buddy cakewalked into it again with zero opposing candidates. 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

2 hours ago, Uncommon said:

All that means is that Florida has some pretty good downtowns. For a city of its size, Orlando's downtown is pretty similar to cities in its weight class. The difference is older, more established cities have much larger downtowns but the vibrancy and walkability is similar or better in some cases. I'd take DTO over the downtowns of Sacramento, St. Louis and San Antonio. Charlotte, Kansas City, and Portland are bigger, better, or have light rail but are not necessarily more vibrant or walkable. I think DTO is in a pretty good place. Just because other cities in Florida are improving faster doesn't mean DTO is declining.

Maybe so but there was a point in time I would’ve put DTO in front of the likes of Saint Petersburg, Tampa and Fort Lauderdale. But after recently haven’t gone to those downtown it’s just quite evident. It’s unfortunate that Orlando doesn’t have the help of natural water like those cities do, but it is what it is, Orlando needs to find a way to make it work.

 

[Uncommon]

56 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Maybe so but there was a point in time I would’ve put DTO in front of the likes of Saint Petersburg, Tampa and Fort Lauderdale. But after recently haven’t gone to those downtown it’s just quite evident. It’s unfortunate that Orlando doesn’t have the help of natural water like those cities do, but it is what it is, Orlando needs to find a way to make it work.

 

St. Pete and Tampa are some of the hottest cities since/right before COVID. So it makes sense that they have exploded in their downtown cores recently. I think Ft. Lauderdale's downtown was always better than Orlando's by virtue being that close to Miami. But yeah, DTO has not kept up. There's too much expansion happening in other parts of the city, whereas the downtown areas of most other cities are its focal point. 

1 hour ago, orlandouprise said:

With all due respect, have you walked around DTO lately? The  CBD is a ghost town, CV is a ghost town and south eola is meh ok

And now we can only expect 4 more years of this because Buddy cakewalked into it again with zero opposing candidates. 

Yeah actually I was there this morning lol. The CBD was most definitely not a ghost town. Lots of pedestrians and activity on Central, by Lake Eola, in Thornton Park and on Church St. I was pleasantly surprised. I didn't go to CV because that place is an abject failure but most of downtown was lively. I know we all don't love the riffraff that comes out at night but DTO is very vibrant most nights of the week. During the day, it's mostly office workers and stuff but that's honestly how most downtowns are post-COVID. Downtown Tampa and downtown Orlando are very similar in terms of daytime vs nighttime traffic and activity. The only difference is Tampa has a bunch of new buildings, the waterfront and less trashy people (they go to Ybor).

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

With all due respect, have you walked around DTO lately? The  CBD is a ghost town, CV is a ghost town and south eola is meh ok

And now we can only expect 4 more years of this because Buddy cakewalked into it again with zero opposing candidates. 

Everything is Buddy Dyer's fault. 

Buddy Dyer has single handedly destroyed DTO.   

If we just had a different Mayor, everything would be great. 

[orlandouprise]

16 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Everything is Buddy Dyer's fault. 

Buddy Dyer has single handedly destroyed DTO.   

If we just had a different Mayor, everything would be great. 

I would agree with every one of those statements! Smart man! 

[Ivanhoe]

23 hours ago, Uncommon said:

St. Pete and Tampa are some of the hottest cities since/right before COVID. So it makes sense that they have exploded in their downtown cores recently. I think Ft. Lauderdale's downtown was always better than Orlando's by virtue being that close to Miami. But yeah, DTO has not kept up. There's too much expansion happening in other parts of the city, whereas the downtown areas of most other cities are its focal point. 

Yeah actually I was there this morning lol. The CBD was most definitely not a ghost town. Lots of pedestrians and activity on Central, by Lake Eola, in Thornton Park and on Church St. I was pleasantly surprised. I didn't go to CV because that place is an abject failure but most of downtown was lively. I know we all don't love the riffraff that comes out at night but DTO is very vibrant most nights of the week. During the day, it's mostly office workers and stuff but that's honestly how most downtowns are post-COVID. Downtown Tampa and downtown Orlando are very similar in terms of daytime vs nighttime traffic and activity. The only difference is Tampa has a bunch of new buildings, the waterfront and less trashy people (they go to Ybor).

There was also a huge music festival this weekend that likely contributed to a larger number of pedestrians. All hotels were at capacity this weekend downtown.

And to me, that is key.  DTO needs tourists to support it.

[orlandouprise]

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

There was also a huge music festival this weekend that likely contributed to a larger number of pedestrians. All hotels were at capacity this weekend downtown.

And to me, that is key.  DTO needs tourists to support it.

Agreed! 100% But if you were visiting from out of town. What do you do DT?  Where do you go? What is there to see exactly. Honest questions

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

Agreed! 100% But if you were visiting from out of town. What do you do DT?  Where do you go? What is there to see exactly. Honest questions

Bars, bars, bars, bars and more bars.

Go to the movies.

Have a cigar. 

Go to Taco Bell. 

Stroll around the lake. 

 

[orlandocity87]

14 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

Agreed! 100% But if you were visiting from out of town. What do you do DT?  Where do you go? What is there to see exactly. Honest questions

I usually try to plan a visit to downtown around an event at a venue (Dr. Phillips, Amway, Orlando City), a free outdoor event (Sunday farmer's market, seasonal festivals, bandshell shows, Third Thursdays), or a smaller destination outing (Orange County Regional History Center, SAK Comedy Club).  If you're with kids, the Lake Eola playground and swan boats are popular. There's also a few walking tours to choose from.

Throw in a lunch/dinner and a dessert/cocktail and you can make a pretty good half-day visit out of it. 

[Uncommon]

I also would visit the axe throwing place, AC Skybar, the rock climbing gym, go shopping on Central or in Thornton Park, go to the kitty cafe or catch a movie, in addition to what was already mentioned. People acting like there is NOTHING to do downtown are just dumb.

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, Uncommon said:

I also would visit the axe throwing place, AC Skybar, the rock climbing gym, go shopping on Central or in Thornton Park, go to the kitty cafe or catch a movie, in addition to what was already mentioned. People acting like there is NOTHING to do downtown are just dumb.

Certainly there are things to do if you look for them or if someone directs you to them.

I think the issue with DTO is that there is just no energy.

No excitement for just being there and doing nothing but walking and looking around experiencing the sights and sounds.

Really big cities don't rely solely on attractions or places to come in off the street to find entertainment.

Being out on the street is entertainment itself.

The other stuff is just icing on the cake.

In that sense, DTO has no cake.  

[Ivanhoe]

Major city downtowns  cannot really be self-sustaining if there isn’t an influx of out-of-town dollars coming in. Orlando is unique in that it is so decentralized that despite the 60+ million visitors, I would guess that maybe 1% of them visit downtown or even know it really exists.  Even those visitors who are going to KSC or the beaches do not pass downtown.

It wasn’t always like this. In the heydays of Church Street Station, downtown was getting a few million visitors a year. We all know the ending — Disney did not like visitors leaving the resort and thus opened Pleasure Island. It was followed by Citywalk.

Given that both employers make up a huge percentage of the population and the incentives to spend their off time and money there, Church Street effectively died overnight. 
I do find it interesting that a lot more people are aware of Winter Park and have at least some curiosity about it. It does appear in a lot of “top 10” lists that make their way around.  
The Visit Orlando campaign also proves this point. They run commercials in major markets across the country and largely focus on theme parks or what I assume is Wekiva Springs. I truly don’t understand why Visit Orlando is campaigning for Disney or Universal when they already do it themselves and better.  I suspect that is one of the reasons they did not receive tourism tax funds. 

Yet, DTO got the Unbelievably Real mural on an empty ugly lot. Somewhat comical.

[FLClarkKent]

17 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

Major city downtowns  cannot really be self-sustaining if there isn’t an influx of out-of-town dollars coming in. Orlando is unique in that it is so decentralized that despite the 60+ million visitors, I would guess that maybe 1% of them visit downtown or even know it really exists.  Even those visitors who are going to KSC or the beaches do not pass downtown.

It wasn’t always like this. In the heydays of Church Street Station, downtown was getting a few million visitors a year. We all know the ending — Disney did not like visitors leaving the resort and thus opened Pleasure Island. It was followed by Citywalk.

It’s always interesting seeing a city with its convention center in its downtown. Was at an event recently in Providence, RI (not exactly a tourist hot spot), and its downtown was hopping. Tons of restaurants and retail, and a short hop to Boston on the commuter train. DTO would greatly benefit from a larger conference space (like the old Expo center) or a decent sized conference hotel. It would never compete with the OCCC, but even smaller events, expos, cons, etc. could bring in some additional traffic. 

[Ivanhoe]

11 minutes ago, FLClarkKent said:

It’s always interesting seeing a city with its convention center in its downtown. Was at an event recently in Providence, RI (not exactly a tourist hot spot), and its downtown was hopping. Tons of restaurants and retail, and a short hop to Boston on the commuter train. DTO would greatly benefit from a larger conference space (like the old Expo center) or a decent sized conference hotel. It would never compete with the OCCC, but even smaller events, expos, cons, etc. could bring in some additional traffic. 

Have spent a lot of time in Providence over the years. Thinking about it, it’s not a bad comparison to what Orlando is or could be. They are not on a major body of water directly downtown. They have at least a dozen neighborhoods that thrive that surround the downtown area and a decent CBD. 
They were able to achieve bringing retail downtown and spent major investment in streetscaping and beautification. Obviously Brown is lightyears ahead of the UCF downtown location, but it’s generally the same proximity.

Perhaps the best spot for a convention center downtown is the Magic entertainment center plot. Throw in a few hotels with it and it could thrive.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ivanhoe

[jrs2]

33 minutes ago, FLClarkKent said:

It’s always interesting seeing a city with its convention center in its downtown. Was at an event recently in Providence, RI (not exactly a tourist hot spot), and its downtown was hopping. Tons of restaurants and retail, and a short hop to Boston on the commuter train. DTO would greatly benefit from a larger conference space (like the old Expo center) or a decent sized conference hotel. It would never compete with the OCCC, but even smaller events, expos, cons, etc. could bring in some additional traffic. 

Alfond Inn actually increased its ballroom space...a plus for WP.  I was upset that they converted the old Expos Center space a few years back...but Marriott left and came back, so...they went with the sure money (UCF) so I get it...

[jrs2]

5 hours ago, Uncommon said:

I also would visit the axe throwing place, AC Skybar, the rock climbing gym, go shopping on Central or in Thornton Park, go to the kitty cafe or catch a movie, in addition to what was already mentioned. People acting like there is NOTHING to do downtown are just dumb.

The axe place in 55W, right?  I walked in one day at the moment a patron threw an axe and it ricocheted back towards the front desk where I was...a freakish thing.  Still cool, though.

Yeah, as stated by others DTO is all about going out.  However I will say that Mathers kind of picked up some slack or filled a bit of a void left by CCS not being what it once was with all those venues.  There's a lot of bars...that's what its about...

AC Skybar - ditto...very unique...

I'd also throw into the mix that Milkshake place on Church inside 420 Artisan...  And, the record store (Donuts place) at Orange & 50.  I walked in there once and the employees were in the back room getting high.  They quickly scrambled when they saw me.  I was like...fellas...chill...please...it's just me...finish up and I'll keep watch.  So they finished up.  Cool place.

And to be fair, I'd also throw in Grand Bohemian- bar and The Boheme, as going out hotspots.  Boheme, Kress, the Mexican place inside Old Suntrust.  Is Hamburger Mary's still around?

Another one: District Gastrobar- West Church St.- I went there to meet some out of town friends...very cool.  Did not expect that...right across the street from CityView...the place was packed.

[RedStar25]

On 11/8/2023 at 5:25 PM, jrs2 said:

question:  I've got a bud who is driving up to see a Magic game on Saturday night...while EDC is going on.  Any input on parking (if he does not park inside Geico Garage)?  I foresee a sh!t show for parking...

Anybody else also please chime in...

There is parking everywhere. 

[shardoon]

On 11/11/2023 at 5:18 PM, JFW657 said:

Everything is Buddy Dyer's fault. 

Buddy Dyer has single handedly destroyed DTO.   

If we just had a different Mayor, everything would be great. 

People hate on BD too much. Honestly, if it was not for him, we would still have the Orlando Arena, but WITHOUT a tenant. Very easily could have been the Tampa Magic, Nashville Magic, or Las Vegas Magic. 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, shardoon said:

People hate on BD too much. Honestly, if it was not for him, we would still have the Orlando Arena, but WITHOUT a tenant. Very easily could have been the Tampa Magic, Nashville Magic, or Las Vegas Magic. 

You're preaching to the choir. Though I don't think BD has been perfect, my above comments were made with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. 

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, shardoon said:

People hate on BD too much. Honestly, if it was not for him, we would still have the Orlando Arena, but WITHOUT a tenant. Very easily could have been the Tampa Magic, Nashville Magic, or Las Vegas Magic. 

I remember when the Mulvaney's guy was running against him around 2008ish... He was a bar/restaurant owner if I recall.  I wonder if his gripe back then is what we see lately in BD not having a loyalty to DTO bars, etc., 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

Buddy Dyer is the reason DTO is in dire need.

[Ivanhoe]

5 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Buddy Dyer is the reason DTO is in dire need.

A case for term limits. Political effectiveness has a shelf life.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Ivanhoe