Is ZOI House Orlando dead?

[FLClarkKent]

1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

Creative Village was a really good idea that all of a sudden changed drastically with Covid. 

Now it is kind of a ghost town and scaled down projects. It is a shame that so much changed so quickly with what was a good plan initially to revitalize a part of the city that needed it. 

I think CV will pick up speed with every passing post-COVID year. But it’s going to take a few years to reach its full potential.

It’s hard to overstate the impact of COVID on DTO. Our office traffic was already somewhat light (compared to other cities), but feels nearly non existent now. Hence, the whole area feels out of balance (daytime activity versus evening activity).

[orlandouprise]

On 10/31/2023 at 11:39 PM, JFW657 said:

My question is, what do you mean by forward movement? 

How and in which areas or ways are we not moving forward that we should be? 

What would moving forward encompass? 

DTO is dying. People can make excuses about Covid or any other excuse for it but the truth is Covid affected everyone...yet other cities still managed to grow, develop and prosper instead of wither away. There is no life, no buzz, no movement, no vibrancy. A few generic apartments have been built but that's it.  There is a reason EVERY single project gets scaled down to a shell of its self or doesn't see the light of day.  There is zero appeal to want to spend any time there. DTO is on life support and no one  in charge seems to care.  

[JFW657]

39 minutes ago, orlandouprise said:

DTO is dying. People can make excuses about Covid or any other excuse for it but the truth is Covid affected everyone...yet other cities still managed to grow, develop and prosper instead of wither away. There is no life, no buzz, no movement, no vibrancy. A few generic apartments have been built but that's it.  There is a reason EVERY single project gets scaled down to a shell of its self or doesn't see the light of day.  There is zero appeal to want to spend any time there. DTO is on life support and no one  in charge seems to care.  

TBH, I'm not so sure there is anything that anyone in City Hall can do.

They can only offer so much in the way of tax incentives to entice businesses, but if they don't want to come to DTO, there's not a whole lot that can be done. As I used to say to spenser occasionally, there's no magic wand. There's just something(s) about the place that doesn't meet their requirements. We've speculated about it here for years and years, but nobody has ever pinpointed precisely what it is that keeps away the kind of businesses we'd like to see open up there.  I can only guess that there is a complex web of intertwined circumstances, economic, geographic, demographic, etc, etc, that's keeping our city center in the minor leagues.

All I would say from my totally unqualified vantage point is, don't sweat it. Don't be impatient. Orlando traditionally never was a big city and only became what it is today because of theme parks. I don't think we can realistically expect too much at least for the time being.  

[orlandouprise]

7 hours ago, JFW657 said:

TBH, I'm not so sure there is anything that anyone in City Hall can do.

They can only offer so much in the way of tax incentives to entice businesses, but if they don't want to come to DTO, there's not a whole lot that can be done. As I used to say to spenser occasionally, there's no magic wand. There's just something(s) about the place that doesn't meet their requirements. We've speculated about it here for years and years, but nobody has ever pinpointed precisely what it is that keeps away the kind of businesses we'd like to see open up there.  I can only guess that there is a complex web of intertwined circumstances, economic, geographic, demographic, etc, etc, that's keeping our city center in the minor leagues.

All I would say from my totally unqualified vantage point is, don't sweat it. Don't be impatient. Orlando traditionally never was a big city and only became what it is today because of theme parks. I don't think we can realistically expect too much at least for the time being.  

100% agree. That exactly what i was saying before. It is what it is and it likely wont change for the time being. If I want more than I should look elsewhere.  Yet i was told thats dumb of me. I was told its dumb to move because skyscrapers arent being built as if the height of a building is the measuring stick for my happiness. There are many cities that dont have height but are extraordinary. Paris, London, D.C. Boston, hell even Greenville SC has more life and vibrancy than DTO without having height. My gripe and frustration is DTO is an afterthought here and all the energy is put forth in the suburbs. Not my cup of tea, so Im looking elsewhere. Thats it. 

 

as far as city hall...if they cant then who can. If they cant, this place is 100% doomed.  Problem is the people in charge are stale and its just accepted as normal. Its not.   

[orlandocity87]

9 hours ago, JFW657 said:

there's no magic wand.

There's no magic wand, but there's a lot of policy the City could have put into place: Promote a range of housing options and incentivize developers -> have a critical mass of diverse downtown residents -> promote commercial and business opportunities -> have a critical mass of retail and services for downtown residents -> demand for downtown residential and commercial grows -> provide transportation options to get people in and out of downtown easily. 

Creative Village isn't perfect, but at least there was a master plan that included diverse housing options, education/office/commercial plans, a greenspace, a Lymmo expansion, etc. The City has been so focused on Lake Nona and the Packing District that they've forgotten to provide any vision for the Sentinel property, the vacant and underutilized lots bordering I-4, or the empty lots around the soccer stadium. 

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, orlandouprise said:

100% agree. That exactly what i was saying before. It is what it is and it likely wont change for the time being. If I want more than I should look elsewhere.  Yet i was told thats dumb of me. I was told its dumb to move because skyscrapers arent being built as if the height of a building is the measuring stick for my happiness. There are many cities that dont have height but are extraordinary. Paris, London, D.C. Boston, hell even Greenville SC has more life and vibrancy than DTO without having height. My gripe and frustration is DTO is an afterthought here and all the energy is put forth in the suburbs. Not my cup of tea, so Im looking elsewhere. Thats it. 

 

as far as city hall...if they cant then who can. If they cant, this place is 100% doomed.  Problem is the people in charge are stale and its just accepted as normal. Its not.   

Obviously where you live and your reasons for living there are your own business and nobody else's. We all have every right to decide where we want to live based on any criteria we choose and the reasons you've expressed seem perfectly valid to me.

It all depends on what is personally important to you. 

My own personal preference would be for DTO to have a slightly better urban feel but remain on the smallish side so that it retains as much of it's "old Orlando" 50's & 60's era small town charm. 

But as far as City Hall's influence over development, I always go back to the same kind of personal choice for the entrepreneurs and developers who invest huge sums of money into opening new businesses. 

Financial incentives might help push someone sitting on the fence to make the leap, but if Orlando's central core just lacks too many attributes to make it look like a worthwhile investment that will pay off, all the incentives in the world, short of paying for everything, will not be enough. 

If the market was there, these businesses would be there.

1 hour ago, orlandocity87 said:

There's no magic wand, but there's a lot of policy the City could have put into place: Promote a range of housing options and incentivize developers -> have a critical mass of diverse downtown residents -> promote commercial and business opportunities -> have a critical mass of retail and services for downtown residents -> demand for downtown residential and commercial grows -> provide transportation options to get people in and out of downtown easily. 

Creative Village isn't perfect, but at least there was a master plan that included diverse housing options, education/office/commercial plans, a greenspace, a Lymmo expansion, etc. The City has been so focused on Lake Nona and the Packing District that they've forgotten to provide any vision for the Sentinel property, the vacant and underutilized lots bordering I-4, or the empty lots around the soccer stadium. 

All that sounds/looks good in writing, but what are the practical impediments to it in the real world?

Has not Orlando been promoting affordable housing? How do you realistically make housing in the most expensive market in the region cheap enough to be considered affordable in a free market, capitalist economy? Everything has to be paid for by somebody.  Just recently, Buddy Dyer was shouted down during remarks at a tour of Parramore Oaks by a resident, because affordable isn't affordable enough. 

What does "diverse residents" entail? Age, race, income, nationality? Would they necessarily make DTO a better place, and how would the city engineer such a thing? 

As I opined in the above response, financial incentives that promote commercial and business opportunities only go so far. Businesses are not going to invest in an area they don't have confidence in no matter what kind of tax breaks or waiving of fees are offered.

That ^^^ goes directly to having a "critical mass of retail and services for downtown residents", which like everything else, is dependent on private sector investment. It also goes back to the "magic wand" point I made before. The city cannot decree these things. They can offer incentives, pull strings and try to encourage, but the bottom line is always profits and the projections made by professional firms who specialize in them.

Transportation is always an issue and something that also costs a lot money, requires tax dollar allocations etc. Orlando has tried downtown transportation projects like Lymmo and it does what it does. How many people use it?

And of course we have Sunrail which does what it does but depends on ridership. If it fails, it will fail from not enough use and revenue generation. 

The Sentinel property and all the empty surface lots along I-4 are unfortunate, but again, what should/could the city have done that would have resulted in those parcels being developed today? 

Again, all of those ideas sound good theoretically, but making them happen in the real world where there are other competing forces at play is usually not doable until the forces of nature and fate come together to make them doable. 

Lake Nona and The Packing District seem to be where developers are currently willing to invest their money and resources based on what they believe will be successful enterprises for them. Can't really blame the city for getting behind them and promoting them. 

It's part of our nature to back winners rather than also-rans. Right now, those two projects are the flavor of the day. It is what it is. 

I think that if we really must assign blame to the lack of progress in DTO, maybe we should be looking more closely at ourselves. Why aren't more Orlandoans interested in living and dining and shopping downtown? Too many other options? Too expensive for our mostly service based workers? Indifference to the notion of living downtown? 

I'm not trying to whitewash the city's culpability in anything, whatever it may be, or discredit your suggestions.

I'm just trying to look at it from a more balanced and more pragmatic perspective.  

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Obviously where you live and your reasons for living there are your own business and nobody else's. We all have every right to decide where we want to live based on any criteria we choose and the reasons you've expressed seem perfectly valid to me.

It all depends on what is personally important to you. 

My own personal preference would be for DTO to have a slightly better urban feel but remain on the smallish side so that it retains as much of it's "old Orlando" 50's & 60's era small town charm. 

But as far as City Hall's influence over development, I always go back to the same kind of personal choice for the entrepreneurs and developers who invest huge sums of money into opening new businesses. 

Financial incentives might help push someone sitting on the fence to make the leap, but if Orlando's central core just lacks too many attributes to make it look like a worthwhile investment that will pay off, all the incentives in the world, short of paying for everything, will not be enough. 

If the market was there, these businesses would be there.

All that sounds/looks good in writing, but what are the practical impediments to it in the real world?

Has not Orlando been promoting affordable housing? How do you realistically make housing in the most expensive market in the region cheap enough to be considered affordable in a free market, capitalist economy? Everything has to be paid for by somebody.  Just recently, Buddy Dyer was shouted down during remarks at a tour of Parramore Oaks by a resident, because affordable isn't affordable enough. 

What does "diverse residents" entail? Age, race, income, nationality? Would they necessarily make DTO a better place, and how would the city engineer such a thing? 

As I opined in the above response, financial incentives that promote commercial and business opportunities only go so far. Businesses are not going to invest in an area they don't have confidence in no matter what kind of tax breaks or waiving of fees are offered.

That ^^^ goes directly to having a "critical mass of retail and services for downtown residents", which like everything else, is dependent on private sector investment. It also goes back to the "magic wand" point I made before. The city cannot decree these things. They can offer incentives, pull strings and try to encourage, but the bottom line is always profits and the projections made by professional firms who specialize in them.

Transportation is always an issue and something that also costs a lot money, requires tax dollar allocations etc. Orlando has tried downtown transportation projects like Lymmo and it does what it does. How many people use it?

And of course we have Sunrail which does what it does but depends on ridership. If it fails, it will fail from not enough use and revenue generation. 

The Sentinel property and all the empty surface lots along I-4 are unfortunate, but again, what should/could the city have done that would have resulted in those parcels being developed today? 

Again, all of those ideas sound good theoretically, but making them happen in the real world where there are other competing forces at play is usually not doable until the forces of nature and fate come together to make them doable. 

Lake Nona and The Packing District seem to be where developers are currently willing to invest their money and resources based on what they believe will be successful enterprises for them. Can't really blame the city for getting behind them and promoting them. 

It's part of our nature to back winners rather than also-rans. Right now, those two projects are the flavor of the day. It is what it is. 

I think that if we really must assign blame to the lack of progress in DTO, maybe we should be looking more closely at ourselves. Why aren't more Orlandoans interested in living and dining and shopping downtown? Too many other options? Too expensive for our mostly service based workers? Indifference to the notion of living downtown? 

I'm not trying to whitewash the city's culpability in anything, whatever it may be, or discredit your suggestions.

I'm just trying to look at it from a more balanced and more pragmatic perspective.  

I walk DTO daily, more or less.  I am used to it, so it ain't no thang...

Think about that statement for a minute...

So I talk to a white couple that I know that live up in WP area.  The husband says there's no way in hell he's open to going out in DTO b/c it's very "hood."  

But the problem is, I confuse reality with familiarity.    Well, compared to Park Ave and New England and WP Village and Baldwin Park, well, duh, of course it is...

But I think that's the problem here.  And if there are others that view it like this as well, then they ain't coming here either unless they are already here...as a "captive" audience.

MaiTai on Saturday and Sunday has brunch specials.  It's like a scene out of classic BCR in Daytona.  Is that bad?  No; it just is what it is.

I noticed Ceviche is no longer open on Church St.  That was one of those higher end venues.

So, we lose Wahlburgers, Ceviche, Amura (a few years ago- another former hotspot), and even Harry Buffalo as well.  Venues are dying out because people aren't coming...at least the people that once patronized those places.

DTO smells like weed at least half the time I'm outdoors.

Park Ave is like WDW while DTO is turning into FunSpot... it is what it is, and that's a big reason why nothing is coming here beyond, say, a Mathers or Bellhop as more upper end venues...

[nite owℓ]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:44 PM, orlandouprise said:

DTO is dying. People can make excuses about Covid or any other excuse for it but the truth is Covid affected everyone...yet other cities still managed to grow, develop and prosper instead of wither away. There is no life, no buzz, no movement, no vibrancy. A few generic apartments have been built but that's it.  There is a reason EVERY single project gets scaled down to a shell of its self or doesn't see the light of day.  There is zero appeal to want to spend any time there. DTO is on life support and no one  in charge seems to care.  

Agreed. Mid-sized city w/small town vibes and I feel many want to keep it that way. One of the reasons I sold my condo is bc I got tired of "Waiting for Godot" as spenser would say. We had some good momentum prior to the Great Financial Crisis back in '08, but we haven't recovered since.

I understand wanting to move away from the stagnation in Orlando, but where would you go? Most established downtowns/cities are cost prohibitive (unless money isn't an issue for you, then the world is your oyster).

It's nice to visit cities with fully functioning downtowns, but when I'm away I start to miss the small town convenience of our little area... or maybe I just miss the familiar surroundings, who knows. Our traffic is annoying, but traffic in larger cities is on another level. While I would much prefer to live in Winter Park (which is the only area worth a damn in Central FL IMO), living in downtown's environs allows me to comfortably sustain myself on my salary which would not be the case if I had to start over in Miami Beach, NYC, etc.

Downtown Orlando is basically my compromise.

 

[codypet]

On 11/3/2023 at 4:32 PM, jrs2 said:

Park Ave is like WDW while DTO is turning into FunSpot... it is what it is, and that's a big reason why nothing is coming here beyond, say, a Mathers or Bellhop as more upper end venues...

Personally I feel like that unfairly characterizes FunSpot, but that's just me.  FS at least is investing.  I still can't believe FS bought an RMC coaster.  That's insane.

Edited November 6, 2023 by codypet

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

Personally I feel like that unfairly characterizes FunSpot, but that's just me.  FS at least is investing.  I still can't believe FS bought an RMC coaster.  That's insane.

ArieForce One in The ATL?

[codypet]

4 hours ago, jrs2 said:

ArieForce One in The ATL?

Yep.  I believe they spent $18m on that.

[RedStar25]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:44 PM, orlandouprise said:

DTO is dying. People can make excuses about Covid or any other excuse for it but the truth is Covid affected everyone...yet other cities still managed to grow, develop and prosper instead of wither away. There is no life, no buzz, no movement, no vibrancy. A few generic apartments have been built but that's it.  There is a reason EVERY single project gets scaled down to a shell of its self or doesn't see the light of day.  There is zero appeal to want to spend any time there. DTO is on life support and no one  in charge seems to care.  

I guess you miss all the concerts and shows going on at Dr. Philips Center or next door at First Methodist. Downtown was packed to the gills last weekend for Fall Fiesta. You have some valid points but you can not completely ignore everything that does not fit your narrative. 

[orlandocity87]

On 11/3/2023 at 2:07 PM, JFW657 said:

Has not Orlando been promoting affordable housing? Not enough, clearly. 

How do you realistically make housing in the most expensive market in the region cheap enough to be considered affordable in a free market, capitalist economy? Rent control or at least rent stabilization. Zoning that allows for accessory dwelling units. Programs that promote small-scale development instead of "luxury" superblock apartment complexes. Tax breaks for age- or income-restricted housing programs. Housing reserved for students. Urban growth boundaries that increase the value of our land. 

What does "diverse residents" entail? Age, race, income, nationality? Would they necessarily make DTO a better place, and how would the city engineer such a thing? Age: What is being done to make downtown accessible to the elderly? Are we doing anything to attract new retirement homes? Are the roads safe enough and schools good enough to attract young families downtown? These are demographics who often prefer traditional, walkable areas but are not coming to downtown Orlando. 

Transportation is always an issue and something that also costs a lot money, requires tax dollar allocations etc. Orlando has tried downtown transportation projects like Lymmo and it does what it does. How many people use it? And of course we have Sunrail which does what it does but depends on ridership. If it fails, it will fail from not enough use and revenue generation. Roads don't generate revenue either. The difference is, SunRail has attracted nearly $2 billion in development around its stations. Developers want to monopolize on transit-oriented development, which is hard to do when you don't have much transit. There's also the issue of ignoring weekend service and an airport connection. 

The Sentinel property and all the empty surface lots along I-4 are unfortunate, but again, what should/could the city have done that would have resulted in those parcels being developed today? So how did Creative Village come together? What investments and plans were made in Lake Nona and Packing District to have entire town centers pop up at once? Where's the Under-I project that would make so many empty downtown parcels more appealing? 

Lake Nona and The Packing District seem to be where developers are currently willing to invest their money and resources based on what they believe will be successful enterprises for them. Can't really blame the city for getting behind them and promoting them. The developers' impact fees don't even come close to covering the real cost for all the new roads, signage, utilities, police, fire stations, trash, etc. The City is actively investing in those areas and promoting development there. 

 

[jrs2]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:25 PM, RedStar25 said:

I guess you miss all the concerts and shows going on at Dr. Philips Center or next door at First Methodist. Downtown was packed to the gills last weekend for Fall Fiesta. You have some valid points but you can not completely ignore everything that does not fit your narrative. 

question:  I've got a bud who is driving up to see a Magic game on Saturday night...while EDC is going on.  Any input on parking (if he does not park inside Geico Garage)?  I foresee a sh!t show for parking...

Anybody else also please chime in...

[jgardnerucf]

26 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Anybody else also please chime in.

Park in the 310 Garage or along streets adjacent by the old folks towers, walk over. 

[Alleri459]

3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

question:  I've got a bud who is driving up to see a Magic game on Saturday night...while EDC is going on.  Any input on parking (if he does not park inside Geico Garage)?  I foresee a sh!t show for parking...

Anybody else also please chime in...

Many for EDC will take the multiple shuttles that will be coming from the tourist corridor, get dropped off or rideshare. There are multiple garages around downtown Orlando, mainly along the grapefruit lymmo route, and will take it to OBT and Central. From what I read it, they have a recommended list of garages that are 55 west, central garage, Geico garage, City Commons, 200 S orange, Jefferson garage. I doubt the garages will get too busy, but the festival has grown significantly and the downtown garage/Lymmo route has become much more popular since it's cheaper.

[JFW657]

13 hours ago, orlandocity87 said:

Not enough, clearly. 

Rent control or at least rent stabilization. Zoning that allows for accessory dwelling units. Programs that promote small-scale development instead of "luxury" superblock apartment complexes. Tax breaks for age- or income-restricted housing programs. Housing reserved for students. Urban growth boundaries that increase the value of our land. 

Age: What is being done to make downtown accessible to the elderly? Are we doing anything to attract new retirement homes? Are the roads safe enough and schools good enough to attract young families downtown? These are demographics who often prefer traditional, walkable areas but are not coming to downtown Orlando. 

Roads don't generate revenue either. The difference is, SunRail has attracted nearly $2 billion in development around its stations. Developers want to monopolize on transit-oriented development, which is hard to do when you don't have much transit. There's also the issue of ignoring weekend service and an airport connection. 

So how did Creative Village come together? What investments and plans were made in Lake Nona and Packing District to have entire town centers pop up at once? Where's the Under-I project that would make so many empty downtown parcels more appealing? 

The developers' impact fees don't even come close to covering the real cost for all the new roads, signage, utilities, police, fire stations, trash, etc. The City is actively investing in those areas and promoting development there. 

I'm sure that IN THEORY, each of your points have varying degrees of validity. But that's my issue with them. They sound very THEORETICAL. Like they're straight from a textbook or a website.

My guess is that there are a myriad of practical, real world issues involved. Like financing, profitability, existing market demand and the ability to achieve what many of the people who these dwellings would be meant to serve, consider as "affordable". I refer back to the Parramore Oaks resident who interrupted Buddy Dyer during a recent speech there, and shouted him down about how "affordable housing" is not really affordable at all. And she's probably right. People on SS and Welfare can hardly be expected to fork over $1,400.00 per month or more just for rent. But that's what rents on new units are going for. 

It costs a lot more money to build new multifamily residential buildings than it did just five years ago. Developers want to make profits. They are not going to willingly lose money just to be charitable. 

Rent controls can have negative consequences for property owners and create unintended negative consequences for tenants.

https://jamesmadison.org/reminder-rent-control-will-not-solve-the-florida-housing-crisis/#:~:text=Rent control has proved to,fix end up becoming amplified.

But that's all moot anyway, as there is no rent control allowed in Florida anyway.

https://www.doorloop.com/laws/florida-rent-control-laws#:~:text=No%2C there are no Florida,doing so unless absolutely necessary. 

Allowing ADU's might help some people, but only a very few. Not enough to put a dent in the affordable housing shortage because few property owners would likely build them. They cost money, too. 

As for elderly housing, DTO already has three or for high rises specifically for them with Lutheran Towers planning to build another...

https://www.growthspotter.com/2023/01/25/orlando-lutheran-towers-proposes-new-21-story-tower-at-downtown-site/#:~:text=The Commons at the Orlando,2023 at 9%3A19 a.m. 

Creative Village came about as the result of an identified need for a downtown campus for UCF. Minus that, it would not exist. 

I believe the county, state and possibly federal government all pick up part of the tab for the roads around and leading to Lake Nona. The Packing District road improvements might be borne by the developer. NOBT already exists and the rest of the streets are within the district itself. 

All in all, given the complexity of the problem, the only viable solutions seem to be in creative ideas like rehabbing old hotels/motels/malls as they do for the homeless. People of average means in need of affordable housing might need to lower their expectations and rely more on their own ingenuity. Think more in terms of doubling and tripling up (roommates) to share the rent and utilities. In the case of single parents, try to find other single parents in the same boat to share a home or apartment with. 

I know that we live in the age and generation where finding someone to blame or hold accountable for everything is the norm. But there are and always have been some things there just are no easy solutions for. I seriously doubt our local governments are just ignoring the housing issue or not attempting to do anything because they just don't care. I think there are a lot of very difficult obstacles to overcome with difficult solutions that cannot be forced.

[dcluley98]

Rent in Orlando is actually cheap compared to other similar areas in Florida. Hard to believe given how high it is and how it keeps increasing above inflation every year recently, but it is true. 

I have done research lately into Tampa/St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Bradenton, and others and it is actually more expensive in those areas, and Miami is even worse. 

[orlandocity87]

 

11 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Like they're straight from a textbook or a website.

... "affordable housing" is not really affordable at all. And she's probably right. 

Right, because they're policies that have worked elsewhere. 

"Affordable" is determined by the AMI (area median income). Depending on what % of the AMI you make determines what level of affordability you qualify for. Likewise, developers gain certain benefits by offering affordable options. (Florida Housing)

11 hours ago, JFW657 said:

It costs a lot more money to build new multifamily residential buildings than it did just five years ago. Developers want to make profits. They are not going to willingly lose money just to be charitable. 

Going back to the original comment that started this discussion: Why does Orlando keep missing entire growth cycles? Why is Orlando development so much less urban than what's happening in other Florida cities? Why are we being outpaced by cities this board was literally making fun of 5-10 years ago? Interest rates and construction costs were relatively low for years and we didn't take advantage of them.  

11 hours ago, JFW657 said:

But that's all moot anyway, as there is no rent control allowed in Florida anyway.

If property owners can have Homestead exemption, why can't renters have rent control or at least rent stabilization? We're seeing the real-world results of policy failures like these. 

11 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Allowing ADU's might help some people, but only a very few. Not enough to put a dent in the affordable housing shortage because few property owners would likely build them. They cost money, too. 

I wouldn't underestimate the possibilities. Hundreds of additional 1-BR apartments would be the equivalent of multiple new apartment complexes. Except the property owners would be able to set competitive pricing since big developers wouldn't have the monopoly. Some home values more than doubled in the last 10 years, so there's a lot of equity to take advantage of. 

11 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Creative Village came about as the result of an identified need for a downtown campus for UCF. Minus that, it would not exist. 

They copied the idea directly form ASU. Except that Phoenix-Tempe planned it in conjunction with a new light rail system. Since 2008, that system has been expanded four times. (Crazy what can happen when cities and counties actually approve half-penny taxes for transit...)

11 hours ago, JFW657 said:

People of average means in need of affordable housing might need to lower their expectations and rely more on their own ingenuity. Think more in terms of doubling and tripling up (roommates) to share the rent and utilities. 

This is true. 

[orlandocity87]

18 hours ago, jrs2 said:

question:  I've got a bud who is driving up to see a Magic game on Saturday night...while EDC is going on.  Any input on parking (if he does not park inside Geico Garage)?  I foresee a sh!t show for parking...

Anybody else also please chime in...

I always park at 302 East Pine Street. It's not the cheapest, but you have really good access to 408 via Summerlin. You can snake your way through Thornton Park instead of trying to cross Orange. 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

Rent in Orlando is actually cheap compared to other similar areas in Florida. Hard to believe given how high it is and how it keeps increasing above inflation every year recently, but it is true. 

I have done research lately into Tampa/St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Bradenton, and others and it is actually more expensive in those areas, and Miami is even worse. 

every one of those places has a much nicer downtown than DTO...  and Bradenton probably follows the Sarasota model...

[dcluley98]

Bradenton does not have a nicer downtown that Orlando, LOL. 

[jrs2]

29 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Bradenton does not have a nicer downtown that Orlando, LOL. 

that's the anomaly then.  but that mini MSA with all the nice barrier islands there, I am not surprised Bradenton's rents are higher than DTO...    Sarasota set a different standard by far and...Bradenton is probably following what they're doing...  Why not?  Sarasota's downtown is superior to DTO and Orlando is larger... Bradenton's downtown may not be nicer than here, but, for how much longer?

[dcluley98]

Bradenton DT will probably never reach the level of Orlando. Agreed that the rest are better than Orlando (Tampa only recently however in the last few years).  Sarasota/Bradenton MSA does not have any transit other than busses and a "trolley" that is actually just a crappy open air bus. They do not have plans for other transportation other than a "water taxi" that has been planned for years and may finally start service next season. 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

Bradenton DT will probably never reach the level of Orlando. Agreed that the rest are better than Orlando (Tampa only recently however in the last few years).  Sarasota/Bradenton MSA does not have any transit other than busses and a "trolley" that is actually just a crappy open air bus. They do not have plans for other transportation other than a "water taxi" that has been planned for years and may finally start service next season. 

I'm not saying I prefer those places...rather...that I can see why rents are higher- but that also probably has to do with the overall market that submarket is within...  Bradenton downtown is not that developed...seems boring...