The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[MLBrumby]

Interesting! This is long overdue. While I used to drive I-24 (all the way to Clarksville) frequently and saw it get dramatically worse over a decade, you may guess that I'm very disappointed in TDOT's slow response to critical needs. 

Going straight to the white paper, I immediately saw this...

While solutions must be found, the Department is committed to not:

• Raising the gas tax

• Issuing road debt

• Spending a disproportionate amount of highway funds in highly congested urban areas at the detriment of spending in rural communities

• Reducing the amount spent on road and bridge maintenance

Overall, a good document, but I see some shortcomings in this by itself (hopefully there is/will be supplemental guidance).  I'd also like to see some provisions for rapid transit in cities (like what's 'detrimental' to the cities?)

My take (bullet-by-bullet)

• The IMPROVE act included a fuel tax, which I do not disagree with when it's needed.  That would have to come after debt financing has been exhausted (see below).
• I do not agree with their commitment to not issue debt as a singular priority. A responsibly low debt-to-income/revenue level (say around 20%) can speed up a lot of projects, especially smaller ones and for urban rapid transit. 
• Vague.  I don't even get this one as to whatever the "detriment" of rural communities is. If 'rural' includes widening lanes along I-24 between Chattanooga/GA line and M'boro, then that's one thing. If it means building super highways in the middle of nowhere when it's at the detriment of cities, that's something I disagree with. So more definition here is needed.
• What is "reducing" the amount spent on road and bridge maintenance? Is that letting it go longer between maintenance or finding more efficient ways/teams to do the work? There's some clarification here, but I agree with this when safety is not compromised. 

Finally, who will determine if TDOT is holding to these objectives which I assume are non-binding? 

Edited November 30, 2022 by MLBrumby

[chc3]

Sometimes it seems like this state detests its economic engine!

[smeagolsfree]

They are going to have to get past the rural communities aspect picture at some point and focus the money where the people and the traffic is. You can’t always drop money down a hole that does not pay its way. The state wants jobs in these rural counties but it is not going to happen when they close the hospitals in those same counties and say all is well. 

Companies will not relocate into a county with no hospitals regardless of how well the roads are. If the counties are poor, most of the time it means the county has a less educated workforce as well. The same goes for the people that represent those areas too I venture to say as well. Those folks want their cake and eat it too.

[Archibum]

Doesn't that third bullet seem like a sort of strawman? Maybe my urban mind is to polluted to understand, but hasn't highway building traditionally been disproportionately spent in rural areas to the detriment of urban areas? And I'm talking beyond the destroying of cities with highways that both cut through urban areas and completely bypass them.

[Luvemtall]

2 hours ago, chc3 said:

Sometimes it seems like this state detests its economic engine!

Well to be honest, and people please don’t start hammering me with all the rude or obnoxious remarks. I’m just being a realist and stating a fact , that we all know is what it is. But the economic engines of this state are its four major cities, which trend more to the left and the rural majority of the state is more right. The state government is controlled by the lawmakers on the right, and therefore they will continue to focus the energy to the rural communities that got them elected. It’s plain and simple truth, why would anyone think differently. 

[andywildman]

Glad to see that TDOT is pursuing more efficient & cost-effective design/build methods.

Not thrilled that TDOT is exclusively looking to move more people via more roads and wider highways. No surprise to anyone who drives around middle TN that our state has seen massive growth in vehicle miles travelled while highway lanes have plateaued. Would be fascinating to know if VMT per capita is also rising dramatically - if I'm a legislator, I think I'd want to keep that number from growing too rapidly.

Buried in the back of the slides is a comment that by 2045, over 57% of spend will be on keeping existing infrastructure in "state of good repair" … the connection that TDOT isn't calling out is that all of these projects they're doing today will require maintenance 10/30/50 years down the road.

[Archibum]

Convert Lebanon Pk/Old Hickory Blvd to Center turn overpass? WTF?

Grade separated interchange at Nolensville and Thompson? Who is coming up with these "solutions"?

[PaulChinetti]

55 minutes ago, Archibum said:

Grade separated interchange at Nolensville and Thompson? Who is coming up with these "solutions"?

What in the world, I missed that, what the crap would that even look like?! That is some straight backwards thinking. 

Put a raised light rail line down the center lane from Harding all the way to downtown and THAT would make way more sense and be a better use of money.

[Luvemtall]

57 minutes ago, Archibum said:

Convert Lebanon Pk/Old Hickory Blvd to Center turn overpass? WTF?

Grade separated interchange at Nolensville and Thompson? Who is coming up with these "solutions"?

As a retired career professional driver, I also scratch my head over some of the roadways here in Tennessee. I think we need the insight and knowledge of our good friend MidTenn1 to answer these questions. Is it that TDOT and it’s engineering are valued cut at the legislature level and we only get what “they” feel necessary? Or is it something else? It seems like somewhere along the line , that Tennessee is stuck in the past by 30-40 years and can’t find its way to the present. Seems like a lot of people here ,are content with the “sleepy ole rural farm town” ways . But they need to open up their minds to the here and now, and realize that is no longer true , and it’s time to get things in order and get the infrastructure done to handle the future.

[markhollin]

1 hour ago, Archibum said:

Convert Lebanon Pk/Old Hickory Blvd to Center turn overpass? WTF?

For those who can't access or have time to sort through the large PDF, here are diagrams regarding the Old Hickory Blvd. at Lebanon Pike interchange ideas:

 

[Archibum]

28 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

What in the world, I missed that, what the crap would that even look like?! That is some straight backwards thinking. 

Put a raised light rail line down the center lane from Harding all the way to downtown and THAT would make way more sense and be a better use of money.

Here is the drawing. So unnecessary. Rail down Nolensville would be amazing and would be a proper tool to help with the growth that is bound to continue down this corridor from WeHo.

 

[Archibum]

While I was living in Chicago they tore down an old viaduct (similar to what is being proposed, but not as bad), and the difference it made was astonishing. Imagine that, but in reverse.  https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/7/25/16022824/western-avenue-viaduct-overpass-flyover-chicago

[PaulChinetti]

I think I've seen this a lot in Texas right? I swear I read an article about these recently.

They seem so wildly unnecessary. They still have stop lights on top, it's like a stacked interstate, lord I hate this.

[samsonh]

2 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

I think I've seen this a lot in Texas right? I swear I read an article about these recently.

They seem so wildly unnecessary. They still have stop lights on top, it's like a stacked interstate, lord I hate this.

Gov Lee came back from Texas and was blown away by their roads. This is such backwards thinking

[Luvemtall]

41 minutes ago, markhollin said:

For those who can't access or have time to sort through the large PDF, here are diagrams regarding the Old Hickory Blvd. at Lebanon Pike interchange ideas:

 

Very much like the Broad Street/ Memorial project that was done in Murfreesboro. 

[nashville born]

In recent times, I've avoided this string because the lack of progress on this topic is utterly disappointing.  I have such visions of success for Nashville.  Mass transit and efficient traffic seem irreversibly banned from joining those visions.

[Luvemtall]

1 hour ago, nashville born said:

In recent times, I've avoided this string because the lack of progress on this topic is utterly disappointing.  I have such visions of success for Nashville.  Mass transit and efficient traffic seem irreversibly banned from joining those visions.

I totally agree with you, seems as if maybe the group of us here on this forum are the only ones that even talk about it! Mass transit is treated as cuss words to the general public, well at least outside of Nashville  . 

[smeagolsfree]

3 hours ago, samsonh said:

Gov Lee came back from Texas and was blown away by their roads. This is such backwards thinking

He has to realize if he wants to build roads, he is going to have to raise taxes or go into debt or do toll roads. Or all 3. Texas does not do the roads for free and Billy Boy is blinded by his lust. What he sees and what is in TDOTs master planning are 2 different things.

[Luvemtall]

Yep, you got that right! ^^

[nashmoney]

2 hours ago, nashville born said:

In recent times, I've avoided this string because the lack of progress on this topic is utterly disappointing.  I have such visions of success for Nashville.  Mass transit and efficient traffic seem irreversibly banned from joining those visions.

I agree! I find it hard to belive the downtown loop has not been updated (other than Bridge repair and paving) since it's inception. 40+ years later and here we are. One of the fastest growing cities in the nation for several years and nothing on interstate road improvements. 

I guess landscaped exit and on ramps are out of the picture. FL and GA and even NC tend to do a good job with them in the core. Ours are only in expensive areas like Cool Springs and Brentwood. 

It makes me think.... Do our politicians never drive on our roads or drive in rush hour in our major cities. They must take private jets or helicopters everywhere. 

[BnaBreaker]

Good God, not to beat a dead horse, but I swear that Tennessee is run by people stuck in 1950.  I'm almost surprised that they haven't tried to outlaw public transportation outright.  And it's only going to get worse now that the city of Nashville is represented by three of these same types in the US Congress as well.  Say what you will about Cooper, but at least he didn't openly despise the city he represented.  And still, despite all this, Nashville booms.  Just imagine what this city could be if it actually had people in power in it's corner!  

Edited December 2, 2022 by BnaBreaker

[nashmoney]

Interesting read about the work being done in Chattanooga regarding 75/24 split. Are there any other states that are pay as you go like TDOT? 

"Bradley said the reason for the separation of projects is that TDOT is a pay-as-you-go road builder and the overall project was too big to fund, so it was broken into manageable pieces." 

"Over the past half-century, state and local officials on several occasions sought a fix for ongoing traffic problems at the interchange and its arteries, according to Chattanooga Times Free Press archives."

https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2022/dec/01/161-million-low-bid-awarded-for-phase-2-of-split/

[markhollin]

Broadway Viaduct rebuild update: more equipment and steel girders next to site.

Looking south from Porter St., 1/2 block east of 12th Ave. North:

Looking east from Porter St., 1/2 block east of 12th Ave. North:

[lmc123]

Trinity Lane exit from the study:

[NissanvilleTitans]

I try not to think about TDOT at all. Driving around the state makes me so mad. Why do we need a four lane road between Maynardville and Tazewell (you've probably never even heard of them)? So that the 2 cars that travel through there can pass each other? 

While a drive down i75 (not sure if tdot is responsible for it) is so congested, you can't ever get up to the speed limit.

I can't stand it. Put the money where it needs to go. As PaulChinetti says: make use of raised light rail. The metro areas NEED it. Earl and Ethel driving from Newport to Greenville can wait to pass each other later.