The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[grilled_cheese]

Ah, yes, another "poll".  Those really get the dirt moving!  Meanwhile, everyday that passes that we don't actually do something about real mass transit we just dig the hole deeper. 

[MLBrumby]

Suggesting an untapped source of transit funds... Tennessee is a pay-as-you-go state for roads and other infrastructure.  If a portion of the state's bond issuing capacity were allocated/earmarked to each municipality with their own taxing source(s), and the law could be written in such a way that it would only apply to cities over XXX,000 populations, etc.; with the extra capacity for use exclusively for transit, then Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville and/or Chattanooga could jump start a lot of these transit plans. 

[samsonh]

On 3/8/2016 at 4:07 PM, nashville_bound said:

Finally, I find it quite humorous that the only response to an utterly failed Metro policy is condemnation of me. Ha, you guys provide a perfect illustration of why the government is out of control. You give them a free pass. Here are some questions that I actually asked the Davidson County's registrars office...

Is the program working?

Does anyone audit the 'green nonprofit" that receives the money. I will also note that there is only 1 of these and the person running it also owns a construction company. I did ask if he can plant a tree on a lot on which he is constructing a home/building? Would this satisfy the requirements of the program?

What is the cost to operate this program?
Is there a cost to not operating this program?

To no one's surprise the answers were in short supply.

Truly Metro government is simply not working, this program is ample evidence of that.

[Hey_Hey]

I agree that we need to talk funding. I would love to have a Tesla Model S, but once I see what it would cost me I decide to spend my money elsewhere. The vast majority of residents would love to have a mass transit system that would take them to work in an efficient, safe manor.  However, when they see the cost of that system they may decide to spend their money elsewhere. 

Whatever the funding source, it probably needs to be two-tiered. The first level would be for Metro Nashville. The bulk of transit is available in the city, and the city should pay for that increased level of service. The second tier of payment would need to include ring counties that have service under RTA. Williamson, Rutherford, Wilson, and Sumner Counties need to chip in if they have light rail or interstate BRT from their counties to Nashville. 

One option that I would like to see is allowing the counties offering RTA service to fully charge local option sales tax on automobile sales.  Currently, the state charges 7% on the full purchase price, but local governments only charge their local option sales tax on the first $2500. Extending that to the full purchase price makes sense in my mind and would raise considerable money. 

I would also like to see us get away from a per-ride payment scheme. We want people to use the service, and per ride schemes penalize heavy users. Per use funding makes sense when a good is consumed, but riding a bus 10 times a day does not consume any more resources for MTA/RTA than riding once a day.  An appropriately priced subscription would likely yield an increase in revenue and riders. 

[Guest]

Ron, 

Your response is but a surprising doubling-down. I was offended by your comments only to the extent that intelligent, persuasive conversation is furthered by skillful rhetoric and not emotional insults (see Trump). Regardless, I will not continue this line of back-and-forth as it is useless on the board. I hope to attend a meet-up soon and maybe we can communicate better in that venue.

However, I will bite at the rest of your post. So you want a regional auto inspection...a tax by another name so why not just call it a tax...but I digress. So your plan is to tax cars to pay for mass-transit? And do you believe that our current state legislature will even allow this proposal out of committee? And the part about the older cars paying less than the newer cars.... I do not understand that because wouldn't the newer cars be more likely to pass inspection without and remediation needed to pass? Oh, I forgot the inspection is but a ruse to just implement a tax...a tax that if called a 'tax' would be so politically untenable that it would never pass. Have I got this right so far? All of this double-talk and obfuscation is exactly the reason many of the people you malign do not pay attention to policies or politics until someone comes for their money. HOV or HOT lane surcharge? Personally, I would be very interested in how many drivers would be will to pony-up any money, much less $10 a day, to utilize the HOV lane... I do not think very much revenue would be generated. 

I am also confused when you proclaim, "That is not fair ether." when discussing citizens that do not believe in your mass-transit dream. What exactly is 'not-fair'? Should they remain quiet and just pay-up for whatever comes down the pike (pun intended)? You act as if you have the 'answer' and everyone that disagrees is either 'Provincially-Dumb' or a 'NIMBY', or an obstructionist. Hell, I may be all three on certain policies!

Finally, I 100% agree with you at the horrible way Nashville (if you mean Metro Government) is handling this issue.
In a Perfect World - The Mass-Transit Plan would be Presented WITH an identified TAX source. Then all this delay would be unnecessary ... introduce the plan, schedule a referendum. If the plan carries the day implement the tax and start building..... if not then listen to the people...we all know them right? They will be the ones that are paying the bills.

Talk soon my friend.

 

 

15 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

If you want ideas for a dedicated source, then let's look at a regional auto inspection, if not a state vehicle inspection. Additional wheel taxing based on the age of the vehicle. Normally the older the vehicle the less someone will have to pay vs someone with a newer vehicle that or should be able to pay more.

Pay to drive in the HOV lanes is another option for communters. If someone is willing to pay ten dollars a day to drivein that lane, then I say let them. Or, we could start enforcing the HOV lanes by fining 500 dollars and 5 points on their driving record. Not unheard of either.Toll roads are an option, but it will take a while to ever get that going.

Now, that is addressed, there is tons of very ignorant people out there and I can make fun of the hill Billy's because I R one being from the mountains of East 10EC. Seriously, I get what you are saying but it is absolutely the truth. Get into some conversations with the regular people out there, outside of the groups you hang with, weather it is lower income whites, blacks or any other group of people living in Nashville. Many of the regular folks in and around Nashville are not informed until some nimbly starts stirring the pot and calling one of the  TV stations to complain.  I don't make fun of them to their face as I just bite my tongue and go on. There are plenty of those affluent folks in Nashville that do not want may transit because they don't want to be taxed for something they refuse to use. That is not fair either. They have to pay taxes for schools their children dont go to because they are sending them to private school. These are the same folks that can afford it. Not to step on you in anyway, becuase I know your kids go to privvate school, but it is nearly impossible to do anything other than generalize, because I know not everyone is that way, but a large outspoken group that do stir the pot is.. Bringing up a comment from the AMP discussion,  there was the woman that lives in Richland Park that came right out and said she didn't want those people coming into her neighborhood. 

 

I am not picking on you, just letting folks know that the people that wil scream the loudest, will never get involved in the discussion until word finaly gets around through the rumor mill that this is going to cost money, and they were too Stupid to stay informed on what their government is doing. Yes, I dare to call them Stupid, because that is what they are. They are not interested in the transit discussion will never get involved and complain because no one told them about it or that didn't watch the news or read the business section. I stand by my comments.

 

I do apologize if this has rubbed the wrong way, but the way Nashville is handling things is horrible, and Every now and then I take my frustrations out here.

 

I like that you offered revenue source. I would think that the current legislative body would need some convincing to approve such a big change in policy. The politicians I speak with over the years are very proud of TN's pay-as-you-go method. But again, I like the thought.

 

6 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Suggesting an untapped source of transit funds... Tennessee is a pay-as-you-go state for roads and other infrastructure.  If a portion of the state's bond issuing capacity were allocated/earmarked to each municipality with their own taxing source(s), and the law could be written in such a way that it would only apply to cities over XXX,000 populations, etc.; with the extra capacity for use exclusively for transit, then Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville and/or Chattanooga could jump start a lot of these transit plans. 

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by Guest

[nashvylle]

nashvillebound-

what is your preferred method of tax revenue to fund mass transit. 

[PruneTracy]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

HOV or HOT lane surcharge? Personally, I would be very interested in how many drivers would be will to pony-up any money, much less $10 a day, to utilize the HOV lane... I do not think very much revenue would be generated.

HOT lanes have typically produced more revenue than the cost to build and operate under all pricing schemes, particularly variable pricing that reflects demand. As to whether drivers want to use them, it doesn't have to be a daily occurrence. Are you running late to an important meeting? Does your kid's daycare charge more after 6:00? Maybe it's worth a couple of bucks to speed past a crash in the general-purpose lanes so you arrive on time.

As an aside, I would personally rather see revenue from a managed lanes directed to the respective roadways that feature them, e.g., if I pay $3.00 to use the HOV lane on I-65 between Franklin and Brentwood, that $3.00 goes only to the maintenance and expansion of I-65 between Franklin and Brentwood. This helps roadways become self-sustaining and promotes the use of public-private partnerships to maintain a high level of service regardless of politics or funding issues. Virginia is currently securing proposals to do exactly this on I-66 near DC, to be maintained at no cost to taxpayers. Of course our esteemed leaders in the two-ring circus state legislature have decided for this session that TDOT should not be trusted with the ability to pursue P3s, a careful decision I'm sure they made in the best interest of all Tennesseans.

[Guest]

You can tell I am not sold on Mass-Transit Plan 1 with so many unanswered questions.

IF, I were to pursue the aggressive Plan 1, I would first look to kick-start the project (think Schermerhorn size or $165,000,000 in today's dollars) with the boosters in the Nashville Business/Educational/Non-Profit/(Rich People) community that are cheerleading the effort...prior to any tax increases. If that effort was successful then I would propose a combination of (1) a regional consumption ta (sales-tax increase), (2) a property tax district that allows for a surcharge on the properties closest to the proposed transportation routes that appreciate in value (off pre-transit baseline) and (3) a realistic user fees. I am pretty sure all of this would only slightly dent a nut that large.....

 

2 hours ago, nashvylle said:

nashvillebound-

what is your preferred method of tax revenue to fund mass transit. 

 

[smeagolsfree]

I think most of us here will disagree with your funding methods as far as a district tax or a sales tax goes. If you continue to use your car coming into and out of the city then you should have to pay. Not just close to where the lines are because that will not be fair either as those people will feel singled out even if they do not use transit. I do agree with the user fees, 

We already have the highest sales tax in the nation, so an increase there would get way too much push back. This is going to have to be a comprehensive plan all the way around and everybody pays. If that means a property tax increase then let it be so.

[grilled_cheese]

Put up toll booths at all entrances to Davidson Co.  Make the suburbanites who ran away from Davidson Co taxes pay for it.

[dmillsphoto]

Yet another CO story, but toll roads really, really ought to be a thing here. As should a pay-only/enforced HOV lane.

[MidTenn1]

3 hours ago, grilled_cheese said:

Put up toll booths at all entrances to Davidson Co.  Make the suburbanites who ran away from Davidson Co taxes pay for it.

I already contribute to Davidson County coffers even though I live in another County. I shop, buy groceries, cars, dinners and lunches and on and on. They get all those sales taxes without my requiring any police or fire protection or other costly government services. So I am virtually free money for  Davidson County.

If they want to put up toll roads, I can go to Williamson County.                              

 

[titanhog]

3 hours ago, grilled_cheese said:

Put up toll booths at all entrances to Davidson Co.  Make the suburbanites who ran away from Davidson Co taxes pay for it.

That's ok.  If you want to ever leave Davidson County to go on a trip somewhere, we'll charge you $50 just to come through our county. Seems fair. 

[grilled_cheese]

23 minutes ago, titanhog said:

That's ok.  If you want to ever leave Davidson County to go on a trip somewhere, we'll charge you $50 just to come through our county. Seems fair.

We'll just fly.

[titanhog]

1 hour ago, grilled_cheese said:

We'll just fly.

Now we're just flyover counties.  I knew it would come to that. 

[nashwatcher]

1. HOT lane fee. People will pay $4 to avoid traffic and save time. As PruneTracy notes, it doesn't have to be every day, just when the driver needs (for some it may be worthwhile every day). The fact that revenue is almost always higher than the cost to build is very encouraging. It would be an effective "volunteering" tax, sounds good.

2. Drivers will benefit by the reduction of cars. Further encourage mass transit with a wheel tax. Win win.

3. Creative opportunities. Sponsorship. The Murfreesboro light rail line could be the "Bridgestone Line. Getting Nashville where it needs to go". The Charlotte rail line could be the "HCA Line. Less Emmissions. Keeping Nashville Healthy" etc etc. Also advertising at stations, in rail cars/buses. 

4. Small sales tax increase. It's been an effective funding mechanism in other states to pay for mass transit. .5% will keep us under ten and will generate lots of revenue. No tax is going to be ideal to everyone, but I think this is one that could be intelligent.

We really need to understand how technology is going to change traffic congestion in the upcoming years. Let's make sure we design our system with such possibilities like driverless cars/ride sharing/etc in mind. 

[japan]

Louisiana is about to go to 10.1% combined sales tax.

Edited March 23, 2016 by japan

[Guest]

I already pay a steep property tax...and as you alluded to earlier still have to pay for private school for two boys because the educational system in Metro is not very good. Personally, I would vote against any property tax increase in the referendum that is required by law.

 

17 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

If that means a property tax increase then let it be so.

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Guest

[Hey_Hey]

1 hour ago, nashville_bound said:

I already pay a steep property tax...and as you alluded to earlier still have to pay for private school for two boys because the educational system in Metro is not very good. Personally, I would vote against any property tax increase in the referendum that is required by law.

I didn't realize how high Metro's property tax was compared to surrounding counties until we recently started looking to move.  Williamson County's property tax is 55-65% (depending on where you live in the county) of what the Davidson County Urban Services District is. When you compare comparable houses between Green Hills and Brentwood (say 3000 sq feet), the tax is almost two times higher in Nashville.  Once I found that out it was hard for me to justify paying that much more in property tax, especially when the cost of real estate is lower on a per-square-foot basis in Williamson County and the quality of public education is so much better.  Any property tax increase in Nashville that isn't matched by the region as a whole would be a tough sell IMO. 

We can't have anything that is antagonistic between Nashville and Williamson.  They are simply too reliant on each other for employment and workers (this is also a reason why the local hire referendum was very short sighted and ill-advised).  If either county does anything to harm workers living in the other county, there could be a steady transition of jobs to the other county. If there is a tax imposed on out of county workers driving into Davidson, we could very easily see thousands of jobs shift to Cool Springs over a five year period. Sticks instead of carrots are also not politically feasible. There isn't an appetite in the region or the state to charge surge pricing for road usage.  Even discussing it seems like wasted breath. 

[nashvillwill]

31 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

There isn't an appetite in the region or the state to charge surge pricing for road usage.  Even discussing it seems like wasted breath. 

I think you would be surprised how large of an appetite there would be if it were avaliable. I bet my bottom dollar that HOT lanes would make money like gang busters. But, if it's a political appetite that you mean, then yes, I agree. It would be a hard sell, but I guarantee you, if you build it, they will come. 

But the first step to getting there is actually enforcing the current HOV rules, which seems to be of little interest to the state/metro/TDOT. So yeah, it's probably a waste of breath. 

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by nashvillwill

[Hey_Hey]

I meant political appetite.  There's no way it will get endorsement by our state legislature. I have no doubt that people would pay money to drive in a special lane when traffic is bad. 

[nashwatcher]

6 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

I meant political appetite.  There's no way it will get endorsement by our state legislature. I have no doubt that people would pay money to drive in a special lane when traffic is bad. 

Why wouldn't politicians allow HOT lanes as a partial revenue source for mass transit? I would use it all day long, as would many people I know to avoid traffic.

[Rockatansky]

FYI: Nashville's property tax rates are the lowest of any of the big 4 cities in Tennessee.
Nashville: $4.5160
Memphis:  $7.7700
Knoxville:  $5.0457
Chattanooga:  $5.0742

[Guest]

Our rate is $4.752 but the difference may be due to our condo being in a special CBIS taxing district.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Guest

[smeagolsfree]

Just face it Todd,  you bought at the right time and I figure your condo has at least tripped if not quadrupled . You were one of the pioneers downtown. It may have even increased more than that as you have been there, at least 10 maybe 12 years I think.

I would be screaming about taxes too, however, with a mass transit system, you would not need a car. Huge savings.

Just messing with you as always. You need to show up at a meet soon.