The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[titanhog]

Let me ask you guys this:  Coming from Arkansas 20 years ago, where our roads have always been bad...I was impressed at how great Tennessee's highways were always up-to-date and in great condition.  However...over the past few years, our roads are getting worse and worse.  Is this all because of the federal government's continual fight over passing a budget?

[UTgrad09]

3 hours ago, titanhog said:

Let me ask you guys this:  Coming from Arkansas 20 years ago, where our roads have always been bad...I was impressed at how great Tennessee's highways were always up-to-date and in great condition.  However...over the past few years, our roads are getting worse and worse.  Is this all because of the federal government's continual fight over passing a budget?

Yes and no.

Yes, the fight over the budget is having an effect on federal funding.

But no, that is not the only cause. Part of it is that our state has always funded road projects via the gas tax (a smart move, IMO)....but as vehicles have become more efficient, and the cost of road building has dramatically risen, the gas tax itself is no longer effective for funding highway projects.

If growth were more stagnant, it may not be such an issue....but explosive growth around Nashville -- as well as other much needed projects around the state -- puts a strain on TDOT. And the federal bickering certainly isn't helping.

[Nathan_in_DC]

14 hours ago, titanhog said:

Let me ask you guys this:  Coming from Arkansas 20 years ago, where our roads have always been bad...I was impressed at how great Tennessee's highways were always up-to-date and in great condition.  However...over the past few years, our roads are getting worse and worse.  Is this all because of the federal government's continual fight over passing a budget?

I'm not so sure that our roads are inherently any worse than they were 20 years ago. There are increased traffic loads which make wear and tear happen faster, but by and large Tennessee still has very good roads. Also, have you by any chance moved from county to county? This could account for the perceived change in quality. Many of the state's non-interstate highways are controlled by the local counties, who in some cases maintain them very well, and others not so much. This can be anything from general good management or mismanagement, to the availability of local resources (such as quality chert or limestone deposits) making them cheaper to obtain.

[Guest]

 

The rapid development of technology is not 'pie-in-the-sky as some argue on this board. It is arriving as we speak and all I have asked is that we study its potential prior to moving forward with a multi-billion dollar mass-transit project that may not be needed (car-sharing, uber, automated vehicles), may need to be modified to incorporate the new technologies (driverless trains, rail, busses).

http://www.truckingnewsonline.com/news/129-million-self-driving-vehicles-on-market-between-2020-and-2035/9045/

"And according to the report, titled Autonomous Vehicles, 129 million autonomous-capable vehicles will be sold between 2020 and 2035.

Over the last few years, the topic of autonomous (or self-driving) cars has shifted from the realm of science fiction and technical journals to being featured in popular media on a regular basis. The first combinations of advanced driver assistance features are now available on some newer vehicle models, offering semi-autonomous driving under specific circumstances.

“Sharing vehicles is one of the core benefits of an autonomous fleet, and if people are willing to share rides, then even greater efficiency can be achieved,” says David Alexander, senior research analyst with Navigant Research. “Studies have shown that an autonomous fleet can effectively replace a much larger number of private vehicles in a city center, which represents both opportunity and challenge for original equipment manufacturers (OEMs).”

[titanhog]

3 hours ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

I'm not so sure that our roads are inherently any worse than they were 20 years ago. There are increased traffic loads which make wear and tear happen faster, but by and large Tennessee still has very good roads. Also, have you by any chance moved from county to county? This could account for the perceived change in quality. Many of the state's non-interstate highways are controlled by the local counties, who in some cases maintain them very well, and others not so much. This can be anything from general good management or mismanagement, to the availability of local resources (such as quality chert or limestone deposits) making them cheaper to obtain.

No...I've lived in the same area for over 20 years now...and I've traveled all over.  The roads are definitely not as well-kept in TN as they were 20 years ago...including metro Nashville.  Of course, it could be because of increased traffic...but either way you slice it, the up-keep is noticeably less.

[AUNash]

I have never encountered a state legislature that hates their capital city more than Tennessee's legislature does.  It's absolutely outrageous.  I get the impression that many of these people literally want to see Nashville fail.  

I used to live in Atlanta, and many there would say the same thing about the fact that legislators from the rest of Georgia almost actively try to hold ATL back.

[fieldmarshaldj]

24 minutes ago, AUNash said:

I used to live in Atlanta, and many there would say the same thing about the fact that legislators from the rest of Georgia almost actively try to hold ATL back.

Nobody but Atlanta politicians and those supporting a certain statist ideology holds Atlanta back. A majority of state residents grew tired of having Atlanta pols hold the rest of the state hostage (or the rest of Fulton County for that matter) and acting like a giant Hoover vacuum for their tax dollars.

[Pyramid Scheme]

5 hours ago, fieldmarshaldj said:

Nobody but Atlanta politicians and those supporting a certain statist ideology holds Atlanta back. A majority of state residents grew tired of having Atlanta pols hold the rest of the state hostage (or the rest of Fulton County for that matter) and acting like a giant Hoover vacuum for their tax dollars.

Looks like they learned the truth of Margaret Thatcher's quote 'The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.'  Some would say that's a misrepresentation of socialism as collectivist statism, which makes me think of Hillary saying she's not a socialist, she's a progressive liberal, or in my case "my friends aren't imaginary, they're just ontologically challenged".

[Rockatansky]

The primary reason TN's roads are in worse shape today than in year past is that the gas tax (state and federal) hasn't been raised in nearly 30 years. Inflation is a pain in the ass.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Rockatansky
grammar

[farm_boy]

On 4/10/2016 at 1:23 PM, titanhog said:

No...I've lived in the same area for over 20 years now...and I've traveled all over.  The roads are definitely not as well-kept in TN as they were 20 years ago...including metro Nashville.  Of course, it could be because of increased traffic...but either way you slice it, the up-keep is noticeably less.

The main reason most area roads are in such bad repair, currently, is the result of the devastating rain/freeze/snow event from last year. It will take several years to erase that damage

[titanhog]

36 minutes ago, farm_boy said:

The main reason most area roads are in such bad repair, currently, is the result of the devastating rain/freeze/snow event from last year. It will take several years to erase that damage

Part of the issue is that we've obviously just patched potholes in most areas over the past few years...but many of those areas need repaving.  So...for some reason, the money hasn't been there.  The entire stretch of I-440 from I-40 to Nolensville Road needs to be repaved...but I understand that still will not happen for a while.

Don't get me wrong...we still have better roads than most states I've seen...but not quite as up-to-date as the 90's.  Makes me wonder if maybe we had gotten a major influx of road money in the late 80's and early 90's which gave me the impression that all of Tennessee's roads were brand new when I moved here?

[claya91]

1 hour ago, titanhog said:

Part of the issue is that we've obviously just patched potholes in most areas over the past few years...but many of those areas need repaving.  So...for some reason, the money hasn't been there.  The entire stretch of I-440 from I-40 to Nolensville Road needs to be repaved...but I understand that still will not happen for a while.

Don't get me wrong...we still have better roads than most states I've seen...but not quite as up-to-date as the 90's.  Makes me wonder if maybe we had gotten a major influx of road money in the late 80's and early 90's which gave me the impression that all of Tennessee's roads were brand new when I moved here?

I don't know if was nimby's, poor planning, lack of money or a combination of all, but it's pretty sad that the most expensive highway mile for mile in TN is one of the most seemingly neglected and obsolete. From the day they cut the ribbon, it has backed up. Also, perhaps someone more engineering-minded than myself can weigh in but why do they use concrete instead of asphalt on 440?

Edited April 12, 2016 by claya91
spelling

[farm_boy]

2 hours ago, claya91 said:

I don't know if was nimby's, poor planning, lack of money or a combination of all, but it's pretty sad that the most expensive highway mile for mile in TN is one of the most seemingly neglected and obsolete. From the day they cut the ribbon, it has backed up. Also, perhaps someone more engineering-minded than myself can weigh in but why do they use concrete instead of asphalt on 440?

The 440 parkway was originally designed to be 8 lanes; of course, the current 4-lane design is compliments of the NIMBYs. The concrete roadway, now 30 years old, has far exceeded its designed lifespan of 20 years. The roadway will be replaced when money becomes available, but expansion is not likely.

As for concrete vs asphalt, obviously concrete is a more durable product that requires less maintenance and lasts much, much longer than asphalt but is more expensive to build. Normal total lifespan costs are lower with concrete

[titanhog]

28 minutes ago, farm_boy said:

The 440 parkway was originally designed to be 8 lanes; of course, the current 4-lane design is compliments of the NIMBYs. The concrete roadway, now 30 years old, has far exceeded its designed lifespan of 20 years. The roadway will be replaced when money becomes available, but expansion is not likely.

As for concrete vs asphalt, obviously concrete is a more durable product that requires less maintenance and lasts much, much longer than asphalt but is more expensive to build. Normal total lifespan costs are lower with concrete

It appears that concrete does not do that great when potholes are filled in with asphalt...which seems to make concrete roadways all the more "rough" once they begin to crumble.

[MLBrumby]

More on the subject of I-440 and the botched repair work (only $8 million).  Related musings... when I first came to Nashville and my parents took I-440 to Vandy, I couldn't help noticing how nice and clean the "old expressway" through Nashville looked for an antiquated 2-lane route. Of course, I would learn that it was only a few years old at the time, and then the question became why TN was too stupid to build at least 3 lanes along that route because even in the late 80s it was too crowded.  

Anyway, this is from the Ledger... http://tnledger.com/editorial/Article.aspx?id=88390

I-440: An $8 million ‘cheap fix’ gone bad

State says never again to pothole-laden grooved concrete

[nashvillwill]

This is a case of failed maintenance and all the political b.s. That goes with it. Yes, concrete is superior in several ways. It's lifespan is far greater than asphalt. Problem is, once built, it's treated as a "lifetime guaranteed" product. It's not. It's time for replacement, which means shutting down the highway for a week and doing a total replacement. 

The beauty of asphalt is that you can patch potholes very quickly and for a minimal cost. Never mind the fact that this becomes a 24/7 job. 

Its apples and oranges. Both the apple eventually rots. 

[titanhog]

2 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

More on the subject of I-440 and the botched repair work (only $8 million).  Related musings... when I first came to Nashville and my parents took I-440 to Vandy, I couldn't help noticing how nice and clean the "old expressway" through Nashville looked for an antiquated 2-lane route. Of course, I would learn that it was only a few years old at the time, and then the question became why TN was too stupid to build at least 3 lanes along that route because even in the late 80s it was too crowded.  

Anyway, this is from the Ledger... http://tnledger.com/editorial/Article.aspx?id=88390

I-440: An $8 million ‘cheap fix’ gone bad

State says never again to pothole-laden grooved concrete

"$6.1 BILLION backlog in TN road projects."  Yikes!!

[Hey_Hey]

We really need to go to a per-mile tax.  As a driver of an plugin electric hybrid that I drive almost exclusively in electric mode, I don't contribute much to the road construction fund.  I really believe we are going to see a major ramp up in electric vehicle growth over the next ten years or so. As such, we are going to lose out on a whole lot more construction funds if we continue to rely on a gas tax. 

 

[titanhog]

3 minutes ago, Hey_Hey said:

We really need to go to a per-mile tax.  As a driver of an plugin electric hybrid that I drive almost exclusively in electric mode, I don't contribute much to the road construction fund.  I really believe we are going to see a major ramp up in electric vehicle growth over the next ten years or so. As such, we are going to lose out on a whole lot more construction funds if we continue to rely on a gas tax. 

 

Your proposal is probably too fair to be considered.   (but I like it...and it makes sense)

[21jump]

9 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

More on the subject of I-440 and the botched repair work (only $8 million).  Related musings... when I first came to Nashville and my parents took I-440 to Vandy, I couldn't help noticing how nice and clean the "old expressway" through Nashville looked for an antiquated 2-lane route. Of course, I would learn that it was only a few years old at the time, and then the question became why TN was too stupid to build at least 3 lanes along that route because even in the late 80s it was too crowded.  

Anyway, this is from the Ledger... http://tnledger.com/editorial/Article.aspx?id=88390

I-440: An $8 million ‘cheap fix’ gone bad

State says never again to pothole-laden grooved concrete

That's a very interesting read, I remember there was a lot of fuss when they "textured" the pavement in 09. In San Diego, I-15 and parts of I-5 have a similar grooved pavement.  Their pavement isn't subject to freezing like here but it is subject to heavy traffic and it's in very good shape after, I would assume, 10-15 years so far.  I will say, from experience in SD and in Nashville, that those grooves do nothing to prevent pooling water on the roads. One suggestion, as far as our roads as a whole are considered, that I'm not sure has been discussed on this board are express lanes on 24 and 65. Forgive me if this has already been discussed. Express lanes that I am talking about are essentially toll roads in the median of the freeway. The tolls change depending on the congestion on the main lanes of the freeway. Bus and HOV vehicles may use the express lanes for free. the fees collected from the express lane are earmarked for maintenance/upkeep for ONLY THE SECTION OF FREEWAY THAT THE EXPRESS LANES EXISTS, therefore state road funds could be diverted to other roads. This has already paid for itself in San Diego and the sections of road where express lanes exists are very beautifully landscaped and maintained. I know California is a different beast than Nashville but it's something that should be considered as an option. Once again, I apologize if this has been discussed before.

[VSRJ]

It's funny, I actually like the grooved concrete on 440. It reminds me of the streets frequently found in the Chicago area -- takes me back to my time there.

[MidTenn1]

10 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

More on the subject of I-440 and the botched repair work (only $8 million).  Related musings... when I first came to Nashville and my parents took I-440 to Vandy, I couldn't help noticing how nice and clean the "old expressway" through Nashville looked for an antiquated 2-lane route. Of course, I would learn that it was only a few years old at the time, and then the question became why TN was too stupid to build at least 3 lanes along that route because even in the late 80s it was too crowded.  

Anyway, this is from the Ledger... http://tnledger.com/editorial/Article.aspx?id=88390

I-440: An $8 million ‘cheap fix’ gone bad

State says never again to pothole-laden grooved concrete

A couple of comments:

The original Environmental Impact Statement required the highway be built as a two lane in each direction parkway. Some sections have been widened to six total lanes, but not through the interchanges per requirements of the EIS. There was considerable public pressure forcing this decision.

And I don't know about this specific location, but the concrete industry lobby convinced former administrations to require TDOT to use concrete on a certain number of projects even though TDOT considered asphalt a more manageable surface. 

Politics trumps good engineering.

[markhollin]

Local developers state that they don't think companies really care about Mass Transit:

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2016/04/developers-companies-dont-show-they-care-about.html

[ruraljuror]

43 minutes ago, markhollin said:

Local developers state that they don't think companies really care about Mass Transit:

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2016/04/developers-companies-dont-show-they-care-about.html

 

Certainly true of the tire manufacturers we've been attracting lately...

[nashwatcher]

Curious: what departments in Metro are in charge of making decisions in terms of improving our city's street grid/connectivity?

Edited April 24, 2016 by nashwatcher