Brooklyn Village Redevelopment in 2nd Ward

[Higgs Boson]

Charlotte has plenty of height for a city of its size.  Give me retail and good street presence and something that looks unique. 

Edited June 23, 2015 by Higgs Boson

[Rufus]

I somewhat agree to a point, but really, 8-10 stories of midrise is how DC is developed, and it still makes for a quite dense but livable city.  It also increases the likelihood that a taller tower will fill the gaps, as there is less of a glut of developable land.    

 

We don't need to have skyscrapers on every block to be a solid and dense city.  Even in this case there will be as many units on this block as there on The Vue block, granted there is still room for that block to grow (why has that not happened yet?).  

 

I think we tend to romanticize DC's urbanity as a mid-rise "utopia."  While it is walkable, it also benefits from having a really tight boundary and zoning legislation that makes it such.  That's why places like Arlington and Rosslyn are becoming high-rise districts.  With Uptown, there isn't really a tight boundary that dictates the type of developments and urban environment that can be found in DC. 

 

And while Gateway Village is basically our version of a DC neighborhood, it also shows the ills of such development -- nondescript masonry and glass that is an otherwise forbidding presence with not great curb appeal.  

 

I'm not against 2nd Ward and the Brooklyn Village plans.  In fact, I loved it.  I just feel that this is out of context with the other proposed developments along Stonewall.  I just don't want this to be a Mint situation.  

 

Ok...no more ranting from me.  Hahaha...I am by all means not at all as knowledgeable as the rest of you.  And everyone so far is right: if this is great quality and retail, then it is essentially a win.  

[HopHead]

I'm doing my best to reserve judgement until we actually see a firm plan and renderings. Everything that has been mentioned thus far for this site hasn't been overwhelmingly awesome. And I really don't want to see another 200 room hotel tacked on to this project. We have enough of those. The next hotel announcement should be for that mega-1000 room hotel that's needed. Like others have said, if it's a quality 8 story project with retail, then that's fine.  

[asthasr]

Mid-rises succeed in more than just D.C. If you go to Asian cities, almost all of their land area is dedicated to what I would call 'private mid-rises'; small (5m wide) lots with a house above (usually 3-4 floors in Vietnam) and retail below. That gives you, roughly, 500 or 600 square feet of retail per 5m of street frontage, and the sensation of walking on the street is unmatched in the US. Not all of the retail uses are particularly great (I am thinking about a portion of Saigon that consists of used power tools and bits needed for them), but if you're in one of the inner districts, you definitely never feel the lack of highrises. Near my in-laws' house, there are six coffee shops, three department stores, four bubble tea places, and probably two dozen restaurants in walking distance. Not to mention a few banks, jewelry stores, pharmacies, book stores, paper stores, two plastic surgeons (?!), ...

 

It's the abundance of street life that makes a place feel urban. I wouldn't call it a beautiful city, in most respects, but in terms of street life we could learn a thing or two from Saigon:

 

 

(It's also a case study for how ugly it is when you don't bury utilities in a dense city... another lesson Charlotte could learn.)

Edited June 24, 2015 by asthasr

[dcharlotte]

Would you rather have the density of the Vue and the surrounding parking lots or an entire block filled by apartments? Since these are apartments it will be very easy to tear down a corner of this building (or the entire thing) and build a higher and better use. Until then, I'd rather have a full block of development than one lone tower surrounded by parking lots. 

[dubone]

I think out on the edges of uptown, I am very happy with 8-10 story midrises.  This block is surrounded on 3 sides by a freeway, and generally in 2nd Ward, we need to convert dead space to active.  

 

I think the economics of much of uptown's land is that they are parking companies land banking and pricing to build high rise towers, but then there are so many that are doing that, that the area is dead and no worth the value and not worth a developer pursuing high rise unless some other major investment is put in to drum up interest.  

 

South Tryon got the museum district.  3rd Ward got the parks, 1st Ward got a decade of Danny Levine curled up in his mama's arms on a rocking chair with city council and the county and UNCC and CATS saying "there, there, baby. it'll be ok" and giving him candy bar after candy bar.    

 

2nd Ward's investments have been the underperforming Hall of Fame and Convention Center and city/county buildings.  At least has public ownership of land, sellable at whatever price the market will bear without regard the desire to hold out for a high rise.   I think in this way, 2nd Ward SHOULD be built out with the taller form of midrise (8 to 12).    

 

Once the last of these initial Nascar Hall of Fame-related parcels is sold, the city and county ought to move forward with parceling out the rest of the neighborhood with proceeds going to finishing the street grid and park (and hopefully the Euclid bridge connector).   

 

And back to my original point, midrise may be all we get at first, but once there is actual momentum and not projects in isolation in an empty neighborhood, highrise towers start to actually have value and will be put up in between.  

[UrbanGossip]

Good post - good points made.

 

 

And back to my original point, midrise may be all we get at first, but once there is actual momentum and not projects in isolation in an empty neighborhood, highrise towers start to actually have value and will be put up in between.  

 

The same goes for meaningful commercial square footage.  We shouldn't expect the first couple developments in this area to have a bunch of retail.  That has to follow beds.  The exception would be a destination type of tenant like a grocery store that would draw all of uptown to it.  But it will be hard to convince NWR or others to build a bunch of retail when theirs are the only beds around.

 

Personally I would rather have fewer but fuller commercial spaces than have a bunch that will sit empty for the next 5 years.  Having a bunch of empty retail can start to have a self perpetuating momentum of it's own.

[go_vertical]

I know it keeps being said that "uptown is running out of available space", but in reality if you add in lots that are underutilized with aging structures with the lots that are flat out empty then there is still a good bit of land available. The hideous white building at 3rd and Caldwell, the bland, 3 story United Way box at 3rd and Brevard, and the rest of the area around the church there. In fact the land between Davidson, Trade, MLK, and the tracks could easily hold 6, 7, 8 more towers as long as superblock monstrosities aren't built. This is where the 25 to 40 stories should go. And thats just 2nd ward. Add in Levine land, North Tryon, the lots around the Vue, and the gateway viscinity and our high rise skyline can expand three fold.

[DMann]

Does anyone think that the size and speed of Caldwell/South and Stonewall is going to be a concerning factor for retail developing along this stretch?  Whole Foods is way more pedestrian friendly, and will have its own apt/hotel numbers plus light rail to give it strength as a location.  Has anyone tried crossing South or Stonewall during any kind of traffic hour?

 

I feel that whatever goes on the recently won Ravin site will be an island, accessible primarily by vehicle, not foot.  

[Guest]

Does anyone think that the size and speed of Caldwell/South and Stonewall is going to be a concerning factor for retail developing along this stretch?  Whole Foods is way more pedestrian friendly, and will have its own apt/hotel numbers plus light rail to give it strength as a location.  Has anyone tried crossing South or Stonewall during any kind of traffic hour?

 

I feel that whatever goes on the recently won Ravin site will be an island, accessible primarily by vehicle, not foot.  

The Stonewall Area Plan seeks to turn Stonewall into more of a strolling boulevard. So don't fret DMann

[DMann]

The Stonewall Area Plan seeks to turn Stonewall into more of a strolling boulevard. So don't fret DMann

I would love to see it (the plan that is).  Does it include a "road diet" to reduce speeds on Stonewall?

[Guest]

I would love to see it (the plan that is).  Does it include a "road diet" to reduce speeds on Stonewall?

Wider sidewalks, pedestrian refuge and road diet. 

[Bikeguy]

^ not with this Legislature.. ( see HB-44 )

[Norm2]

^ not with this Legislature.. ( see HB-44 )

That is what I was thinking. I didn't think the city could give the intersection of south/caldwell and stonewall a road diet due to the state's suburban design requirements.....

Edited June 24, 2015 by norm21499

[CarolinaCrown]

Embassy Suites Update

[ah59396]

[grodney]

Either the windows need cleaning or it was still a little foggy up high this morning.

 

 

[CarolinaCrown]

Looks likes its just about topped out.

[15895]

Nice infill aesthetically

[Niner National]

Nice infill aesthetically

Yeah, an unremarkable building, but better than the parking lot.

[Guest]

Looks likes its just about topped out.

Got like Two actual floors to go, plus a rooftop bulkhead.

[Spartan]

What's the height of the building going to be? I was thinking it would end up similar to the AT&T building...

[Guest]

What's the height of the building going to be? I was thinking it would end up similar to the AT&T building...

Supposedly about 10 feet taller than AT&T Plaza.

[atlrvr]

No way.  Hotel floor-ceilings much lower than office space.  10 floors of hotel = 1/2 of 15 floors of office...maybe not quite because floors 2-7 are parking, but still....

[Guest]

No way.  Hotel floor-ceilings much lower than office space.  10 floors of hotel = 1/2 of 15 floors of office...maybe not quite because floors 2-7 are parking, but still....

I'm sorry. I thought the question was regarding Crescent Uptown. I completely misread the name of the thread I was responding to.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Guest