SunRail

[cubanbread]

An article dropped yesterday about Tampa getting a grant to form an organization that looks for ways to fund big transit projects in the city. https://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2023/10/17/tampa-scores-usdot-planning-grant.html
They mentioned a few projects they're seeking funding for one was for multimodal connections to a future Brightline station, while they mentioned Ybor as the location in the article there's still a few people that believe the ultimate location of the station will be near the Marion Transit Center in North Downtown. The reason being, there is more room for Brightline to develop here as Ybor's land is basically all in the hands of the Gasworx project developer, Daryl Shaw. Shaw has had conversations with Brightline and they're on good terms but if part of Brightline's business model is to make money on developing land they own around stations then the MTC location makes more sense. It was also the proposed location of the original HSR.

The other interesting project they mentioned was using the CSX line that runs from Tampa Union to South Tampa. This hits a lot of great areas like Franklin St. , the Arts district,  The University of Tampa, North Hyde Park, South Hyde Park, Hyde Park village, Palma Ceia/ Bayshore, Gandy and Port Tampa.  This line is also the western leg of the CSX line that turns into the Sunrail corridor which I think we all believe is eventually going to make its way to Hillsborough after the Polk extension. 

Another project they mentioned that could potentially be another reason Brightline moves to the MTC location was a "Premium" transit project the city wants to pursue connecting Downtown with Tampa International and the most obvious way to get there is via the massively wide 275 median which runs right next to the MTC down to the Westshore district where they have a proposed multimodal center that is only a mile or so from TPA.  Westshore is also home to one of the biggest business districts in the state, 2 popular malls, and many midrise apartment projects that have either been built or are in the works. 

It could also potentially connect Tampa to St. Pete via rail eventually as the new Howard franklin bridge expansion is being built with space for premium transit.  

I could foresee a scenario where Tampa and Brightline share these tracks and, not that Brightline would stop at any of these places, but if a line were built via the 275 median it would be able to serve the new West River project, Old West Tampa which is essentially another Ybor City, and Midtown Tampa which while cool on its own also offers an nearby link to Raymond James Stadium.

A lot of this info was only speculative just a year ago.  A lot could happen good or bad...but the fact that its being openly talked about now is pretty substantial. The Florida peninsula could be pretty well connected in the next 20 years. There's definitely a momentum we haven't seen before. 

 

[codypet]

58 minutes ago, cubanbread said:

It could also potentially connect Tampa to St. Pete via rail eventually as the new Howard franklin bridge expansion is being built with space for premium transit.  

That's not gonna support the weight of Brightline.  Lightrail sure.

[Alleri459]

https://hainescityedc.com/resources/1-135.pdf

Maybe this was already shared but this is a good FDOT Flyer showing the 7 potential stops including:

• Loughman
• Davenport
• Haines City
• Lake Alfred
• Aburndale
• Polk Parkway
• Lakeland

This addition makes so much sense since hundreds of thousands live near these areas. It is wild to see how serious these talks have become in such a short period of time. I truly believe Brightline has been the catalyst in the state of Florida. It made it (train/mass transit) tangible and now so many want a part of it. Yes, Florida is very car centric but it has relatively densely populated corridors and what Brightline has kickstarted is a type of retro fitting in enhancing what we already have in place (existing rail corridors running through population centers). 

[cubanbread]

This is a significant development for Lakeland. Unlike Orlando, Lakeland is establishing its rail connections before the metro reaches a population of one million. While this won't entirely prevent sprawl, it will encourage more development in the urban core, more intensely than if these rail connections weren't established. Additionally, the potential addition of a Brightline station on the north side of Lakeland could further contribute to the city's urbanization.

Here’s an interesting speculation: in the original HSR plan, the prime location for the Lakeland station was at the intersection of I-4 and Kathleen Rd. This spot is conveniently located near the CSX tracks that lead to Downtown Lakeland. If Brightline chooses this as their Lakeland stop there could be a future opportunity to utilize this line to link the two stations.

When I was growing up we always used Lakeland as the butt of jokes but now there's all the potential in the world for it to become an inland Sarasota in terms of vibrancy and density but with the added benefit of easy rail connectivity to all of Florida's major metros something that is not in the cards for Sarasota for decades. 

I would 100% live in Downtown Lakeland now that regular rail service to Tampa and Orlando is looking increasingly likely. 

 

[codypet]

2 hours ago, cubanbread said:

This is a significant development for Lakeland. Unlike Orlando, Lakeland is establishing its rail connections before the metro reaches a population of one million. While this won't entirely prevent sprawl, it will encourage more development in the urban core, more intensely than if these rail connections weren't established. Additionally, the potential addition of a Brightline station on the north side of Lakeland could further contribute to the city's urbanization.

Here’s an interesting speculation: in the original HSR plan, the prime location for the Lakeland station was at the intersection of I-4 and Kathleen Rd. This spot is conveniently located near the CSX tracks that lead to Downtown Lakeland. If Brightline chooses this as their Lakeland stop there could be a future opportunity to utilize this line to link the two stations.

When I was growing up we always used Lakeland as the butt of jokes but now there's all the potential in the world for it to become an inland Sarasota in terms of vibrancy and density but with the added benefit of easy rail connectivity to all of Florida's major metros something that is not in the cards for Sarasota for decades. 

I would 100% live in Downtown Lakeland now that regular rail service to Tampa and Orlando is looking increasingly likely. 

 

The other stop they were thinking was at the Polytech.

Lakeland has an opportunity to grow huge with TOD to Orlando if Sunrail goes all the way down there.  It'll take some travel time though.  I wouldn't be surprised if this materializes, there will likely be a push to make the track speed faster.  Places like between Tupperware and Kissimmee, and Tupperware and Meadowoods/Sunshine corridor seeing speeds up to 80 mph.

[jliv]

2 hours ago, cubanbread said:

When I was growing up we always used Lakeland as the butt of jokes

I remember Lakeland being where all the cool stuff happened before they built the O-Rena, as all the big shows booked at the Lakeland Civic Center for equidistance between Tampa and Orlando!

[jrs2]

39 minutes ago, jliv said:

I remember Lakeland being where all the cool stuff happened before they built the O-Rena, as all the big shows booked at the Lakeland Civic Center for equidistance between Tampa and Orlando!

that's where Ace Frehley got shocked on stage that precipitated the song "Shock Me" from the mid-seventies...

46 minutes ago, codypet said:

The other stop they were thinking was at the Polytech.

Lakeland has an opportunity to grow huge with TOD to Orlando if Sunrail goes all the way down there.  It'll take some travel time though.  I wouldn't be surprised if this materializes, there will likely be a push to make the track speed faster.  Places like between Tupperware and Kissimmee, and Tupperware and Meadowoods/Sunshine corridor seeing speeds up to 80 mph.

was that just one Polk stop or were there two planned?

[codypet]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

that's where Ace Frehley got shocked on stage that precipitated the song "Shock Me" from the mid-seventies...

was that just one Polk stop or were there two planned?

It was an alternate to the Kathleen stop.  There was a lot of political pressure to have the stop at the Polytech as at the time it was seen that the Polytech was going to be the hub of technology and education down there.

[Ivanhoe]

6 hours ago, cubanbread said:

This is a significant development for Lakeland. Unlike Orlando, Lakeland is establishing its rail connections before the metro reaches a population of one million. While this won't entirely prevent sprawl, it will encourage more development in the urban core, more intensely than if these rail connections weren't established. Additionally, the potential addition of a Brightline station on the north side of Lakeland could further contribute to the city's urbanization.

Here’s an interesting speculation: in the original HSR plan, the prime location for the Lakeland station was at the intersection of I-4 and Kathleen Rd. This spot is conveniently located near the CSX tracks that lead to Downtown Lakeland. If Brightline chooses this as their Lakeland stop there could be a future opportunity to utilize this line to link the two stations.

When I was growing up we always used Lakeland as the butt of jokes but now there's all the potential in the world for it to become an inland Sarasota in terms of vibrancy and density but with the added benefit of easy rail connectivity to all of Florida's major metros something that is not in the cards for Sarasota for decades. 

I would 100% live in Downtown Lakeland now that regular rail service to Tampa and Orlando is looking increasingly likely. 

 

Lakeland has a fantastic architectural legacy.  In fact, there are quite a few smaller cities in Polk that have the bones to become the next Winter Garden if the vision and investment is there, notably Winter Haven and Auburndale. 

[dcluley98]

Yup. I was really looking at Winter Haven or Auburndale as potential early retirement city home base. A bit cheaper than Orlando, and I can foresee them becoming very similar to Winter Garden, but maybe even a bit better with the connection to Orlando and Lakeland via SunRail. Winter Garden doesn't have that. I really like the little downtown area of Auburndale, even though there isn't a ton of action. You could just hop on the train to get to a more happenin' locale.  (Ole Jeff used to poke fun at me a bit for mentioning the Winter Haven area as a potential retirment city for me. I was looking toward the future when I was picking cities). 

[cubanbread]

16 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Lakeland has a fantastic architectural legacy.  In fact, there are quite a few smaller cities in Polk that have the bones to become the next Winter Garden if the vision and investment is there, notably Winter Haven and Auburndale. 

The whole middle part of the state is flush with smaller towns and cities with great bones. Lake county and Polk Counties specifically.  Probably because the interstate system didn't tear through that area like it did in other parts of Florida. 
Literally go on Google Earth and choose any city along or near the Lake Whales ridge and you'll find they all have a nice little downtown core.  Some need more TLC than others but the bones are there.
 

[Ivanhoe]

1 hour ago, cubanbread said:

The whole middle part of the state is flush with smaller towns and cities with great bones. Lake county and Polk Counties specifically.  Probably because the interstate system didn't tear through that area like it did in other parts of Florida. 
Literally go on Google Earth and choose any city along or near the Lake Whales ridge and you'll find they all have a nice little downtown core.  Some need more TLC than others but the bones are there.
 

Completely agree — the strength and charm of Central Florida lies  in these small towns scattered about, with their history largely tied to manufacturing and agriculture. It’s what sets the area apart of the rest of the state.

It’s really nice to see them getting the attention they deserve.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Ivanhoe

[jrs2]

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/fdot-releases-new-details-about-proposed-sunrail-extension-polk-county/RGJ6D23WQRHBZA46PRO23NYMIA/#:~:text=POLK COUNTY%2C Fla.,out 14 million car miles.

[orlandocity87]

5 hours ago, cubanbread said:

The whole middle part of the state is flush with smaller towns and cities with great bones. Lake county and Polk Counties specifically.  Probably because the interstate system didn't tear through that area like it did in other parts of Florida. 
Literally go on Google Earth and choose any city along or near the Lake Whales ridge and you'll find they all have a nice little downtown core.  Some need more TLC than others but the bones are there.
 

Moreover, they were all build around rail. There are so many corridors primed for renovated/replaced tracks. 

Unbridled development throughout unincorporated county areas and with little to no growth boundaries—instead of within the limits of these traditional towns and cities—really did a disservice to the historic towns and beautiful nature that makes Central Florida special. 

Just for fun, a while back I traced some existing rail lines to see what kind of a system you could get out of it. Other than running an elevated train down Colonial and Semoran, everything else should be easy to accomplish on existing tracks / in existing right-of-ways. 

[cubanbread]

Continuing to utilize the existing  tracks is the game plan they should continue to stick with for now. 
Even over on my side of the state there are barley used tracks that run from South Tampa all the way to Brooksville and they cut through Downtown Tampa, Ybor City, USF area. There's also an E/W line that reaches from about the Busch Gardens area all the way to Pinellas cutting through places like Oldsmar, Safety Harbour, Clearwater, all the way down to St. Pete. There's even a spur off that line that reaches TPA.

There's a track that runs from Downtown Tampa to Downtown Bradenton and Sarasota as well but I'm not sure how viable that track is. I've never heard it mentioned as a potential commuter line like the other tracks that run through Tampa but that could be because connecting to SWTB via rail just wasn't on the radar. Though, it's getting increasingly more difficult to ignore Bradenton and Sarasota as time goes on. 

53 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

Moreover, they were all build around rail. There are so many corridors primed for renovated/replaced tracks. 

Unbridled development throughout unincorporated county areas and with little to no growth boundaries—instead of within the limits of these traditional towns and cities—really did a disservice to the historic towns and beautiful nature that makes Central Florida special. 

Just for fun, a while back I traced some existing rail lines to see what kind of a system you could get out of it. Other than running an elevated train down Colonial and Semoran, everything else should be easy to accomplish on existing tracks / in existing right-of-ways. 

 

 

What program did you use to create this? 
 

 

[dcluley98]

The Bradenton line is used for freight mostly. It always used to have long Tropicana trains running on it in my childhood. We could smell the burning orange peels from it growing up. Also used to transport freight from Port of Tampa and Port Mantee south to the rest of SW Florida with container cards shipped of off the boats. Del Monte was a really big Port Manatee partner, shipping fresh fruit down through SW Florida. It is a single CSX freight line with good easement and few crossings all along US 41 in Southern Hillsborough and Manatee County, with I believe easement to double track if they wanted to. Once you get to Palmetto, though the easement/ROW narrows and has many more road crossings and then a janky old single track drawbridge over the Manatee River. 

I would say that the best bet probably would be a route to North County, Palmetto, (my hometown), and end at 17th street or Business 41 in Palmetto. There is regular bus traffic along both 17th Street and Business 41, and a main Bus Terminal about a quarter mile away on Business 41 about a block north of 17th Street in what used to be an old car wash when I was growing up. They converted it to a main MCAT Palmetto station with covered parking. 

I don't know how viable it is to continue South across the Manatee River to Bradenton and Sarasota, as the route gets much more challenging past this point. 

 

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, orlandocity87 said:

Moreover, they were all build around rail. There are so many corridors primed for renovated/replaced tracks. 

Unbridled development throughout unincorporated county areas and with little to no growth boundaries—instead of within the limits of these traditional towns and cities—really did a disservice to the historic towns and beautiful nature that makes Central Florida special. 

Just for fun, a while back I traced some existing rail lines to see what kind of a system you could get out of it. Other than running an elevated train down Colonial and Semoran, everything else should be easy to accomplish on existing tracks / in existing right-of-ways. 

the purple line to WG - there is an offshoot from OBX corridor that could go to downtown WG at Plant Street...hypothetically...

[GregoryMCSE]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:57 PM, orlandocity87 said:

Moreover, they were all build around rail. There are so many corridors primed for renovated/replaced tracks. 

Unbridled development throughout unincorporated county areas and with little to no growth boundaries—instead of within the limits of these traditional towns and cities—really did a disservice to the historic towns and beautiful nature that makes Central Florida special. 

Just for fun, a while back I traced some existing rail lines to see what kind of a system you could get out of it. Other than running an elevated train down Colonial and Semoran, everything else should be easy to accomplish on existing tracks / in existing right-of-ways. 

Would really love to see that red line up toward Eustis. I think it would have great ridership.   Huge game changer for communities like Apopka. 

[WAJAS]

3 hours ago, GregoryMCSE said:

Would really love to see that red line up toward Eustis. I think it would have great ridership.   Huge game changer for communities like Apopka. 

That route has been floated a few times during and before Sunrail. The more recent iteration went by the name "Orange Blossom Express." Orange Blossom Express - Wikipedia

[orlandocity87]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:46 PM, cubanbread said:

What program did you use to create this? 

https://mymaps.google.com/

15 hours ago, GregoryMCSE said:

Would really love to see that red line up toward Eustis. I think it would have great ridership.   Huge game changer for communities like Apopka. 

12 hours ago, WAJAS said:

That route has been floated a few times during and before Sunrail. The more recent iteration went by the name "Orange Blossom Express." Orange Blossom Express - Wikipedia

As the link mentions: $1.7M for a study they didn't even finish. Such a shame it never materialized, especially because they could have built it for $55M at the time—a price we'll never see again. 

If I remember correctly, they ended up recommending bus rapid transit, which is silly to me with all the existing rail infrastructure. But (surprise!) that didn't come to fruition either. 

[jrs2]

On 10/22/2023 at 7:34 PM, WAJAS said:

That route has been floated a few times during and before Sunrail. The more recent iteration went by the name "Orange Blossom Express." Orange Blossom Express - Wikipedia

If memory serves, that obx line got federal money and the track(s) was improved a few years ago...

[codypet]

11 hours ago, jrs2 said:

If memory serves, that obx line got federal money and the track(s) was improved a few years ago...

It did.  $$ to improve its tracks and gates

Edited October 24, 2023 by codypet

[orlandocity87]

On 10/23/2023 at 10:56 PM, jrs2 said:

If memory serves, that obx line got federal money and the track(s) was improved a few years ago...

23 hours ago, codypet said:

It did.  $$ to improve its tracks and gates

Was that just for freight or were there any plans for passenger rail?

[codypet]

17 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

Was that just for freight or were there any plans for passenger rail?

I suspect that was for freight only because for passenger rail, they'd be seeking money to doubletrack much of the corridor.   Honestly until you get to Lee Road, I don't see where they have the R/W to doubletrack.  Might need to acquire R/W to doubletrack and get to speeds higher than 10 mph

[jrs2]

On 10/25/2023 at 9:01 AM, codypet said:

I suspect that was for freight only because for passenger rail, they'd be seeking money to doubletrack much of the corridor.   Honestly until you get to Lee Road, I don't see where they have the R/W to doubletrack.  Might need to acquire R/W to doubletrack and get to speeds higher than 10 mph

true, but I thought those RR's have very wide easements around those tracks in general.