SunRail

[Ivanhoe]

Joe Biden’s bipartisan infrastructure bill awarded Brightline West $3 billion. It’s not like the Feds don’t dedicate to rail projects.

[jrs2]

this is news from a week or two ago:

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/sunrail-expansion-report-details-ridership-projection-costs-to-connect-sunrail-to-orlando-airport

[Ivanhoe]

Sunrail to Disney Springs will have a legit boost to the entire system. In a way, I like the idea of Sunrail - Disney and Brightline - Universal. I’m sure both companies would market the hell out of each respective system.

Who knows, Disney might even design “Magical Disney Express” style train cars to whisk passengers over on an express route.

[jrs2]

55 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

Sunrail to Disney Springs will have a legit boost to the entire system. In a way, I like the idea of Sunrail - Disney and Brightline - Universal. I’m sure both companies would market the hell out of each respective system.

Who knows, Disney might even design “Magical Disney Express” style train cars to whisk passengers over on an express route.

i'm thinking...based on what you wrote...Diz would get into an ad war with Uni and all Sunrail trains would have wraps on them from both of these juggernauts.

[Ivanhoe]

11 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

i'm thinking...based on what you wrote...Diz would get into an ad war with Uni and all Sunrail trains would have wraps on them from both of these juggernauts.

It would be interesting to see who would win that ad war. Brightline would need to match pricing to Sunrail since technically, they are sharing tracks on the Sunshine Corridor. 

Why would you take Brightline to Universal when you could take Sunrail for cheaper? 
I don’t know much but I assume Brightline along that route will travel at the same speed as Sunrail due to frequent stops, so it’s not like the “high speed” spin works here.

[aent]

3 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

It would be interesting to see who would win that ad war. Brightline would need to match pricing to Sunrail since technically, they are sharing tracks on the Sunshine Corridor. 

Why would you take Brightline to Universal when you could take Sunrail for cheaper? 
I don’t know much but I assume Brightline along that route will travel at the same speed as Sunrail due to frequent stops, so it’s not like the “high speed” spin works here.

In South Florida, many are taking Brightline over Tri-Rail, or at least try to. The service is just sooo much nicer, even if its cheaper. Why would anyone stay at a nice hotel when there is a cheap one that still has beds? Why buy a Tesla or BMW when you can buy a Nissan Sentra?

[Alleri459]

5 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

It would be interesting to see who would win that ad war. Brightline would need to match pricing to Sunrail since technically, they are sharing tracks on the Sunshine Corridor. 

Why would you take Brightline to Universal when you could take Sunrail for cheaper? 
I don’t know much but I assume Brightline along that route will travel at the same speed as Sunrail due to frequent stops, so it’s not like the “high speed” spin works here.

Sunrail may have the stops in between and brightline does the “express stops” at Convention Center/Epic and Disney Springs. Similar to that proposal along the NE Dade FEC corridor.

[FLClarkKent]

8 hours ago, aent said:

In South Florida, many are taking Brightline over Tri-Rail, or at least try to. The service is just sooo much nicer, even if its cheaper. Why would anyone stay at a nice hotel when there is a cheap one that still has beds? Why buy a Tesla or BMW when you can buy a Nissan Sentra?

Where you live and where you need to travel to are big factors here. If you live near downtown West Palm and need to get to Miami Central Station, Brightline is your best option. But if you’re close to a Tri Rail station and need to get to the airport, it’s the better pick (even if the seats ain’t fancy).

12 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Who knows, Disney might even design “Magical Disney Express” style train cars to whisk passengers over on an express route.

I often hate that this town caters more to tourists than the locals, but if that’s what it takes to get to SunRail to run seven days a week + holidays, then bring on The Mouse!

Seriously, it’s been over a decade and this train only runs on weekdays. That’s wild to me.

 

[codypet]

15 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Sunrail to Disney Springs will have a legit boost to the entire system. In a way, I like the idea of Sunrail - Disney and Brightline - Universal. I’m sure both companies would market the hell out of each respective system.

Who knows, Disney might even design “Magical Disney Express” style train cars to whisk passengers over on an express route.

At that point, Sea World has to have some sort of shuttle too right?  BGT might have to reskin a few of these and use them for Sea World

Edited May 2 by codypet

[cubanbread]

18 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Why would you take Brightline to Universal when you could take Sunrail for cheaper? 

As someone said a ton of people already take Brightline over tri-rail, granted they serve different sections of the cities they run through but Brightline has seen the benefit in this and is already working on a local commuter plan where they will either run a commuter service themselves or allow Tri-rail to run on their tracks. Stations like Aventura were built with this in mind and have platforms to serve both.  The last I heard, it looks like they'll be working on a deal with Tri-Rail to let them use the tracks. 
Its also not uncommon for long distance trains in other countries to do something similar. Its beneficial to both systems, Brightline is more expensive but its got more bells and whistles and is faster, Sunrail will cover more ground but is going to be slower. 
I would imagine that in a year or so we'll look at the numbers and see that Brightline from SFLA to Orlando didn't effect ridership significantly on Amtrak's line from Orlando to SFLA for this same reason. 

[jrs2]

21 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

It would be interesting to see who would win that ad war. Brightline would need to match pricing to Sunrail since technically, they are sharing tracks on the Sunshine Corridor. 

Why would you take Brightline to Universal when you could take Sunrail for cheaper? 
I don’t know much but I assume Brightline along that route will travel at the same speed as Sunrail due to frequent stops, so it’s not like the “high speed” spin works here.

I figured Sunshine Corridor was conceived as a way for Sunrail to expand, by showing an income stream from a tenant (BL) to help land money for the route by marketing its viability.  But the only way to have said tenant would be to duplicate service.  But, that duplicate service would also be the only feasible way for BL to have that leg paid for compared to the 417 bypass to WDW/ Tampa that they were going to develop themselves originally. 

Who would get more ridership to WDW, I don't know?  But the white elephant here is Universal.  They are the ones that riled up Hunter's Creek residents initially.  So, because Universal wanted to be along that line, Sunrail and BL would be bound to duplicate service because Sunrail would get creative and expand so that BL could use that rail line so that Universal could get a stop, and Sunrail/FRA/FDOT would pay for the re-route of the original path (mostly for BL's sake).

And this is directly related to DeSantis versus Disney "conflict", because Universal's offering of a station, within their new Special District, could only become possible if they got the same deal as RCID.  But because they wouldn't get the same deal as RCID from the State, RCID had to be restructured for fairness to Universal, thus, making Comcast happy.  So now, WDW's new special district is on the same footing as Universal's new special district, and Universal is donating land to Sunshine Corridor while Disney decided to pull out of the rail plan.

What this means is that I don't even know who will use Sunrail or BL more for that route to WDW.  I'm also thinking that Sunshine Corridor was also a vehicle to get the Airport Connector as well.  I don't know what FDOT's expectation is for that leg of service (Sunshine Corridor).  I am pretty sure they never planned on that corridor ever for an expansion, and that it only exists because of Universal altering BL's route to WDW and Tampa.

I agree about the speeds.  As for Sunrail vs BL ala cost savings per ticket, dunno; it could be akin to taking Spirit versus Delta somewhere.  As for service frequency, that's where the choice would come in, except that CRT isn't LRT with stops every 5 minutes...so...not sure.

But I have to say that the BL-Sunrail-Universal-WDW dynamic is fascinating to me for all the reasons above.  In the future nobody will remember any of this drama.  Those that do or did will be playing harps on a cloud while smoking a joint.

[Ivanhoe]

On 5/1/2024 at 10:08 PM, aent said:

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In South Florida, many are taking Brightline over Tri-Rail, or at least try to. The service is just sooo much nicer, even if its cheaper. Why would anyone stay at a nice hotel when there is a cheap one that still has beds? Why buy a Tesla or BMW when you can buy a Nissan Sentra?

Who is many? Your rarely back up your statements.

On 5/2/2024 at 1:55 PM, cubanbread said:

As someone said a ton of people already take Brightline over tri-rail, granted they serve different sections of the cities they run through but Brightline has seen the benefit in this and is already working on a local commuter plan where they will either run a commuter service themselves or allow Tri-rail to run on their tracks. Stations like Aventura were built with this in mind and have platforms to serve both.  The last I heard, it looks like they'll be working on a deal with Tri-Rail to let them use the tracks. 
Its also not uncommon for long distance trains in other countries to do something similar. Its beneficial to both systems, Brightline is more expensive but its got more bells and whistles and is faster, Sunrail will cover more ground but is going to be slower. 
I would imagine that in a year or so we'll look at the numbers and see that Brightline from SFLA to Orlando didn't effect ridership significantly on Amtrak's line from Orlando to SFLA for this same reason. 

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As you said yourself, it’s uncommon. That doesn’t translate to typical rail.

[aent]

5 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

Who is many? Your rarely back up your statements.

On 5/2/2024 at 1:55 PM, cubanbread said:

Obviously many is a subjective word, but here's some backup to the statement:

- If you follow the Brightline reddit or YouTube video reviews, for example, it is overwhelmed by people who are trying to use it locally, and with Brightline consistently raising its peak pricing for local travel as a result of all trains being at capacity, it is extremely common to see reddit posts to the nature of "Your going to force me to go back to Tri-Rail, please don't, this is unfair that you are raising the price on us by this much" (although the trains keep selling out, and they have not been able to obtain more as of yet, so they have little choice)

- Brightline has modified its ticketing system to reserve many seats for Orlando to Miami, and has been holding back seats, to the dismay of many trying to use it locally

- Actually, since I made my last post, and before your post, Brightline is dropping the commuter passes causes a lot of complaints on Reddit right now, they want are doing a massive price hike because so many people are using it instead of Tri-Rail. They say they are working with Tri-Rail to setup an Express train to get the time more comparable at least.

https://www.gobrightline.com/train-tickets/passes?utm_source=AJO&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Train+Passes+Update+4.29.24&correlationId=c812fef7-7fa8-482f-b7c2-1563c08af632-0

I didn't mean anything as negative towards Tri-Rail. I used to live in South Florida, and I rode Tri-Rail a lot, and loved the service and I'm not discounting anything of what Tri-Rail is, but its obvious if you have the disposable income, Brightline is a waayyy nicer service. I mean, just look at the stations, the trains, every single detail. There is plenty of room for both to coexist (and expand) as demonstrated by Brightline continuing to hike prices and still fill the trains up (and they're optimistic too, they've ordered 30 more train cars, and they're not for any Orlando expansion, and the first 10 are supposed to arrive in a few months)

I'm not saying Tri-Rail shouldn't exist. They have more stops, they are cheaper so a different market segment can use them, and Brightline just doesn't have the capacity for the demand. If Brightline and Tri-Rail both continue to expand, it will encourage more transfers and make it easier to ride the system without having to transfer to a car.

I do think it will be great if Tri-Rail approves the proposed partnership with Brightline to expand the service further with the Northeast Corridor (and wtf is with that name Tri-Rail, its not in the Northeast of your region, let alone the proposed rail line (coastal link) and that name is already used by those referring to the busiest passenger rail system in America)

On 5/2/2024 at 5:05 PM, jrs2 said:

I agree about the speeds.  As for Sunrail vs BL ala cost savings per ticket, dunno; it could be akin to taking Spirit versus Delta somewhere.  As for service frequency, that's where the choice would come in, except that CRT isn't LRT with stops every 5 minutes...so...not sure.

 

I think that is a very apt comparison, and whats all I was trying to say. For those who can afford it with more disposable income, they want to be on Delta or Alaska airlines, nobody wants to really be on Spirit or Frontier if it wasn't a matter of price. That doesn't mean I think Spirit or Frontier shouldn't exist.

Like seriously:

 

Edited May 4 by aent

[jrs2]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:05 AM, aent said:

Obviously many is a subjective word, but here's some backup to the statement:

- If you follow the Brightline reddit or YouTube video reviews, for example, it is overwhelmed by people who are trying to use it locally, and with Brightline consistently raising its peak pricing for local travel as a result of all trains being at capacity, it is extremely common to see reddit posts to the nature of "Your going to force me to go back to Tri-Rail, please don't, this is unfair that you are raising the price on us by this much" (although the trains keep selling out, and they have not been able to obtain more as of yet, so they have little choice)

- Brightline has modified its ticketing system to reserve many seats for Orlando to Miami, and has been holding back seats, to the dismay of many trying to use it locally

- Actually, since I made my last post, and before your post, Brightline is dropping the commuter passes causes a lot of complaints on Reddit right now, they want are doing a massive price hike because so many people are using it instead of Tri-Rail. They say they are working with Tri-Rail to setup an Express train to get the time more comparable at least.

https://www.gobrightline.com/train-tickets/passes?utm_source=AJO&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Train+Passes+Update+4.29.24&correlationId=c812fef7-7fa8-482f-b7c2-1563c08af632-0

I didn't mean anything as negative towards Tri-Rail. I used to live in South Florida, and I rode Tri-Rail a lot, and loved the service and I'm not discounting anything of what Tri-Rail is, but its obvious if you have the disposable income, Brightline is a waayyy nicer service. I mean, just look at the stations, the trains, every single detail. There is plenty of room for both to coexist (and expand) as demonstrated by Brightline continuing to hike prices and still fill the trains up (and they're optimistic too, they've ordered 30 more train cars, and they're not for any Orlando expansion, and the first 10 are supposed to arrive in a few months)

I'm not saying Tri-Rail shouldn't exist. They have more stops, they are cheaper so a different market segment can use them, and Brightline just doesn't have the capacity for the demand. If Brightline and Tri-Rail both continue to expand, it will encourage more transfers and make it easier to ride the system without having to transfer to a car.

I do think it will be great if Tri-Rail approves the proposed partnership with Brightline to expand the service further with the Northeast Corridor (and wtf is with that name Tri-Rail, its not in the Northeast of your region, let alone the proposed rail line (coastal link) and that name is already used by those referring to the busiest passenger rail system in America)

I think that is a very apt comparison, and whats all I was trying to say. For those who can afford it with more disposable income, they want to be on Delta or Alaska airlines, nobody wants to really be on Spirit or Frontier if it wasn't a matter of price. That doesn't mean I think Spirit or Frontier shouldn't exist.

Like seriously:

 

yes.  Spirit vs United...

I didn't realize the Tri-Rail vs BL thing going on.  Also, Tri-Rail is tri-county rail, right?

How do we get the airport connector done sooner than later for Sunrail?  The head County administrator isn't confident in it getting done soon.  Or is the whole point what I wrote above?

[IAmFloridaBorn]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

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yes.  Spirit vs United...

I didn't realize the Tri-Rail vs BL thing going on.  Also, Tri-Rail is tri-county rail, right?

How do we get the airport connector done sooner than later for Sunrail?  The head County administrator isn't confident in it getting done soon.  Or is the whole point what I wrote above?

 

UP FRONT Money. And thats the only way.

 

 

[aent]

9 hours ago, jrs2 said:

yes.  Spirit vs United...

I didn't realize the Tri-Rail vs BL thing going on.  Also, Tri-Rail is tri-county rail, right?

How do we get the airport connector done sooner than later for Sunrail?  The head County administrator isn't confident in it getting done soon.  Or is the whole point what I wrote above?

I think the answer is put Brightline in charge, let them build what they want, where they want it. Brightline said this route wasn't feasible, it was too expensive, and was ready to go on another route. Our local leadership (combined with lobbying efforts from Universal) said NO, we will tell Brightline what to build and how to build it, and Brightline has moved its resources elsewhere. This is no surprise.

[jrs2]

13 hours ago, aent said:

I think the answer is put Brightline in charge, let them build what they want, where they want it. Brightline said this route wasn't feasible, it was too expensive, and was ready to go on another route. Our local leadership (combined with lobbying efforts from Universal) said NO, we will tell Brightline what to build and how to build it, and Brightline has moved its resources elsewhere. This is no surprise.

Universal wanted a station...Sunrail wanted an airport link...I-Drive Group/OCCC wanted a station...All three of those entities wanted the line. 

But how did this drama start? 

I would guess with Universal because of the whole Special District thing versus Disney with Epic Universe's construction.  Universal was the one that got Hunter's Creek residents riled up about BL after all.  But the new alignment was too expensive for BL.  So, next up is a possible funding source.  How?   THis is where the civic minds got creative.  This is where the idea of a "marriage" with Sunrail came up, and to make this an expansion of Sunrail with BL piggybacking off of it ala leasing ROW.  And I would say Universal told OC that it's personal benefit was also OCCC's benefit (and I-Drive's  benefit), in that, they had common interests here in altering the line (to justify it). 

I think "Sunshine Corridor" was a reaction to Universal, not to BL.  I think that because of the capital investment Comcast was making here, there was no way in hell they would 1) allow Disney to get away with their RCID deal any longer, and 2) there was no way they would allow Disney to benefit from a direct BL link to MCO while they got left out.

I feel this was all about Universal from Day One.  FDOT, Sunrail, The City, any local Congressmen/women aren't bright enough or smart enough to come up with this plan (in a vacuum) or have the foresight to come up with Sunshine Corridor as an evolution for Sunrail.  I mean, think about it...Sunrail ONLY exists because CSX wanted to improve its Mainline and Mica helped them get money for that and their Intermodal Center in Polk in exchange for freeing up the current Sunrail line for CRT.  Had CSX not been involved to begin with, there would be no CRT in Orlando...EVER.  So, if FDOT was reactive to CSX on Sunrail, then what are the chances they be proactive with Sunshine Corridor in the case with BL...a line that does not already exist?  The answer is zero; they haven't even moved forward with an expansion to say UCF or Winter Garden, a natural next step in expansion.  Nor have they really done a whole lot ala just an Airport Connector to the Mainline.

Which brings us back to BL and Universal.  Doesn't anyone find it interesting how Disney was so quick to reject BL's station?  They knew that without that station as an anchor station, it would cause delays or cancelation, i.e., which would negatively impact Universal's new station as well.  I don't think Disney would have reacted that way if OC told them this was mainly about The OCCC and Sunrail and that Universal's station was merely an unavoidable biproduct.  I think Disney saw what was going on and knew Universal was behind the restructuring of RCID, even though DeSanctus wanted to be the point man for it (to score political points).

[codypet]

This is the first I'm hearing that Universal is behind the RCID dissolution.  

[aent]

9 hours ago, codypet said:

This is the first I'm hearing that Universal is behind the RCID dissolution.  

Comcast NBC Universal has been pushing for it for probably more then a decade now, very quietly and carefully.

[jrs2]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:27 PM, codypet said:

This is the first I'm hearing that Universal is behind the RCID dissolution.  

Universal's former land use attorney has put out some videos about it for two years now.  I came across them by mistake. When I saw the one video for the first time, I was like "are you sh!tting me?" I posted them on the Lake Nona thread in 2022 and a couple of pages back on this thread once I re-found them again.  Everyone just pretty much ignored them and/or me.  I figured it was because some politically charged people just prefer to stew in their diapers and don't take too kindly to facts that don't fit their narrative.  Anyway, he laid out Universal's own special district and dogged RCID because of its failures in not operating the way it should have, and stated that he was the point man for Universal's own special district formation.  

But, act like that video(s) doesn't exist for a minute.  Now consider what I write below:

So.  When you have Universal rallying the troops in Hunter's Creek against that BL alignment straight to Disney, coupled with formation of their special district which would donate land for a station next to Epic Universe, and seeing how Universal once riled up Tangelo Park, and used its grease with The City on Skyplex, and the above, its a foregone conclusion they were behind the RCID reshuffling.  Why interfere with BL's alignment and not interfere with RCID's standing with the state?  That would be pretty half a55.  Sure, DeSanctus did something similar with GOAA and UF, but those are public and/or quasi public entities, contrasted with here, where you've got a private corporation with a track record for influencing and being proactive when its own interests were at risk.  Building Harry Potter is one thing.  But building a $2B+ development with little end in sight where now they are going to be closer to being on equal footing with The Mouse is a completely different matter altogether.  At this point, when a new special district is being formed that is abiding by all of the state and local requirements, why would anyone assume that they would develop it in a vacuum and not get involved in lobbying against RCID?  That's akin to a trucker paying a toll when his competitor doesn't have to.  They would have lobbied the state and said "give us the deal Disney has," and the state would have said "no."  And at that point, the state might be in a pickle, because now, you have NBC/Comcast money pressuring you about an arena that it now has entered- the arena of a special district.  So, at that point, the state would have no choice but to strip RCID of those privileges, thus putting it on equal footing with Universal's new special district (or face possible litigation).

Now, take what I just wrote and couple it with a smoking gun land use attorney discussing these issues.

And again, look at the timing.  Without the knowledge above, a headline junkie will assume DeSanctus is a homophobe that 'politically persecuted' a company's 'right to free speech.'  But, looking beyond a CNN headline or clickbait, you realize what I wrote above, and then couple it with a governor that wants to look "strong" and gladly invites the innuendo, when it was probably the furthest thing from his mind at the time.  On a similar note, and in hindsight, money in Vegas would dictate that FEC was behind Scott nixing Obama rail (but Scott was the "villain" or "hero").  Similarly and more apparent than that, and it wasn't really a secret, but CSX spearheaded CRT in Orlando and Mica got the credit for helping make it happen.  But here, it's more like Obama rail and Rick Scott, in that Universal pushed for RCID to play fair or be reshuffled to Universal's benefit but DeSanctus got blamed for it (or credit for it) because of the timing with the passage of The PRA and Disney's queef about it.  But when we talk timing, Universal was already building Epic Universe, BL was already planning a Tampa leg expansion, and as @aentstated above, Universal was already working on their own special district for several years.  So, the carpet bombing of RCID just hadn't happened yet even though the B-52's had already taken off from McCoy AFB.

[codypet]

Does that special district Universal's behind include Sea World?  I forget where that boundary was.

[aent]

9 hours ago, codypet said:

Does that special district Universal's behind include Sea World?  I forget where that boundary was.

No, it is north of 528

[codypet]

Blarg.  "Let's make a theme park entertainment district"  "Let's keep the 3rd largest theme park in the region next door out of it"

Edited Friday at 12:48 PM by codypet

[jack]

RCID made sense because at the time, our rural and poor state could not provide the necessary infrastructure for Disney. 

Universal and Sea World both are in the urbanized areas of Central Florida. Their districts do not make as much sense now that all of the infrastructure are in. But if they could carve out an area and pay 100% of their own policing, fire, roads etc, god bless them and let them do it. 

I am a big fan of these types of districts and support the creation of them. It is the only way to guarantee tax dollars stay very local. 

[jliv]

11 minutes ago, jack said:

RCID made sense because at the time, our rural and poor state could not provide the necessary infrastructure for Disney. 

Universal and Sea World both are in the urbanized areas of Central Florida. Their districts do not make as much sense now that all of the infrastructure are in. But if they could carve out an area and pay 100% of their own policing, fire, roads etc, god bless them and let them do it. 

I am a big fan of these types of districts and support the creation of them. It is the only way to guarantee tax dollars stay very local. 

My suspicion is an expanded special district will be needed to allow for additional property tax assessments on the properties which will benefit the most from the Sunshine Corridor, since a sales tax increase is a more difficult mountain to climb.  A $4 billion line mostly benefiting tourists is going to be a hard sell for Orange County voters considering a sales tax increase.  However, there is a clear case that adding more lanes to I-4 will never solve that traffic clusterf***, and a fixed guideway system is the only way to move the growing number of visitors (and I think there is a lot more growth possible).  Property tax increases are probably the only other likely options.

Edited Friday at 01:59 PM by jliv