Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[Miesian Corners]

18 hours ago, stw52 said:

RDU has way more international arrivals. I arrived from Iceland and was stuck at customs for 1.5 hours because a LHR flight had just arrived before us and they only had two people processing.  Now have my Global Entry card, yay!

I said "were." That's why I asked the question as to why RDU has gotten so much new service from foreign flag carriers, but CLT hasn't.

[TCLT]

2 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

I said "were." That's why I asked the question as to why RDU has gotten so much new service from foreign flag carriers, but CLT hasn't.

Because it’s an AA megahub with little to no local demand and AA already serves all the hubs of the European flag carriers.

[Miesian Corners]

23 hours ago, TCLT said:

Because it’s an AA megahub with little to no local demand and AA already serves all the hubs of the European flag carriers.

Is it? RDU has Icelandair to KEF and Delta to CDG? CLT has seasonal service to CDG and AA offers no service to Iceland at all. 

[TCLT]

2 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

Is it? RDU has Icelandair to KEF and Delta to CDG? CLT has seasonal service to CDG and AA offers no service to Iceland at all. 

Huh? CLT has way more service than RDU  

RDU-KEF is seasonal (and not daily) on a narrow body and Icelandair serves connections over its KEF hub onward to Europe. DL flies to CDG and connects to its partner Air France for onward connections. AA has their long standing flight to LHR. LH has the yet to start flight to its FRA hub (not daily). And that’s all the service they have to Europe. All of these carriers are relying on onward connections to other destinations in Europe or elsewhere  

From CLT, AA operates daily service to 3x LHR (2x year round) and MAD with a partner on the other end for connections beyond plus MUC (year round), FRA, DUB, CDG, and FCO all on 777s. Plus LH serves their MUC hub. There is essentially zero untapped local demand for another carrier to go after. And there’s no reason for BA or IB to take over flights from AA because it’s more efficient to route AA’s planes over the massive hub and base than for the European partners to send a single plane that could be used on a different spoke. 

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, TCLT said:

Huh? CLT has way more service than RDU  

RDU-KEF is seasonal (and not daily) on a narrow body and Icelandair serves connections over its KEF hub onward to Europe. DL flies to CDG and connects to its partner Air France for onward connections. AA has their long standing flight to LHR. LH has the yet to start flight to its FRA hub (not daily). And that’s all the service they have to Europe. All of these carriers are relying on onward connections to other destinations in Europe or elsewhere  

 

Icelandair service from RDU going daily this May.

Icelandair Will Expand to Daily, Year-Round Service in May  - Raleigh-Durham International Airport (rdu.com)

[videtur quam contuor]

College students in the 1960's "discovered" Icelandair as a far less expensive route to Europe. Iceland had a separate agreement with the U. S. from other national flag carriers and they flew passengers to Iceland then onward to Amsterdam (as I recall) and perhaps other destinations. Layovers in Iceland incurred no additional charge. They were profitable on this plan which demonstrates how extractive airline agreements were in that era for the other carriers. Young Bill Clinton claimed this adventure. Backpackers thronged their boarding gates of that time. Many of hat time knew nearly nothing of Iceland except for the national airline and its advantages. All grown up now and matching the competition.

The Iceland woman is a formidable individual and my experience with Icelandair female cabin employees made this abundantly clear. No "happy talk". When she speaks to you, you listen, and follow her directions. Comforting, in its way.

[Miesian Corners]

On 3/15/2024 at 6:44 PM, TCLT said:

Huh? CLT has way more service than RDU  

RDU-KEF is seasonal (and not daily) on a narrow body and Icelandair serves connections over its KEF hub onward to Europe. DL flies to CDG and connects to its partner Air France for onward connections. AA has their long standing flight to LHR. LH has the yet to start flight to its FRA hub (not daily). And that’s all the service they have to Europe. All of these carriers are relying on onward connections to other destinations in Europe or elsewhere  

From CLT, AA operates daily service to 3x LHR (2x year round) and MAD with a partner on the other end for connections beyond plus MUC (year round), FRA, DUB, CDG, and FCO all on 777s. Plus LH serves their MUC hub. There is essentially zero untapped local demand for another carrier to go after. And there’s no reason for BA or IB to take over flights from AA because it’s more efficient to route AA’s planes over the massive hub and base than for the European partners to send a single plane that could be used on a different spoke. 

I know all of this. My point was that RDU actually seeks out new airlines to service the airport. And exactly where is the demand from the Triangle to KEF and how would CLT be any different? 

[TCLT]

3 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

I know all of this. My point was that RDU actually seeks out new airlines to service the airport. And exactly where is the demand from the Triangle to KEF and how would CLT be any different? 

The demand isn’t to KEF. It’s to Europe as a whole. That’s my point. RDU can get those foreign carriers because there’s connecting traffic up for grabs. The amount of service AA provides (including connections over LHR on the nearly 6000 weekly seats they offer there alone) is so massive relative to the local market that there’s nothing to make it worthwhile for a foreign carrier. And because of the power of the hub and the amount of connecting traffic AA fills their planes with, they can easily undercut any foreign carrier’s (cough Icelandair cough) pricing offered to O/D pax while still probably keeping the flight profitable overall. No other airline is gonna have a chance. Lufthansa can make it work because there is local demand to Germany specifically (and more importantly there’s German POS demand to the Charlotte area) that can support their flight. CLT doesn’t seek out foreign carrier service because it’s mostly a waste of their time and money to do so when AA already serves any destination they might try to go after. 

[CLT2014]

Re: Icelandair specifically... I think there are international FIS gate logistic problems at the time Icelandair would need a gate in CLT. They run a very strict connecting schedule through Keflavik and their flights bound for North America leave Iceland around 4:30 - 5PM and arrive in North America around 6:30 - 7:30 and then turn around and fly back to maximize connections in Keflavik again. 

Their RDU flight arrives at 7:30PM for example... during a time frame there is only one other international arrival at RDU from London. To arrive the equivalent time at CLT is during an absolutely chaotic time given our number of international gates...

Concourse D during that time frame is handling in bound flights from: Cancun, Mexico City, Georgetown, Saint Martin, Puerto Plata, Montego Bay, London, Curacao, Saint Lucia, Punta Cana, Barbados, and Turks and Caicos and all gates in Concourse D are under use. That's more passengers to get through FIS in about 1.5 hours than RDU gets all day usually for perspective (even in the future with their new destinations). Concourse C is going to get some remodeling in the future to expand the international gates, which should provide some relief.  

Edited March 17 by CLT2014

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 3/15/2024 at 6:44 PM, TCLT said:

Huh? CLT has way more service than RDU  

RDU-KEF is seasonal (and not daily) on a narrow body and Icelandair serves connections over its KEF hub onward to Europe. DL flies to CDG and connects to its partner Air France for onward connections. AA has their long standing flight to LHR. LH has the yet to start flight to its FRA hub (not daily). And that’s all the service they have to Europe. All of these carriers are relying on onward connections to other destinations in Europe or elsewhere  

From CLT, AA operates daily service to 3x LHR (2x year round) and MAD with a partner on the other end for connections beyond plus MUC (year round), FRA, DUB, CDG, and FCO all on 777s. Plus LH serves their MUC hub. There is essentially zero untapped local demand for another carrier to go after. And there’s no reason for BA or IB to take over flights from AA because it’s more efficient to route AA’s planes over the massive hub and base than for the European partners to send a single plane that could be used on a different spoke. 

Air France now flies RDU -CDG.  RDU has 8 international carriers lined up 2024.  Iceland, Lufthansa, Air France, Copa, Aeromexico,  Air Canada, Bahamasair, with AA operating the daily to London.  I think only Austin comes close to RDU among mid-sized metro non-hub airports. 

[CLT2014]

24 minutes ago, Richhamleigh, DC said:

Air France now flies RDU -CDG.  RDU has 8 international carriers lined up 2024.  Iceland, Lufthansa, Air France, Copa, Aeromexico,  Air Canada, Bahamasair, with AA operating the daily to London.  I think only Austin comes close to RDU among mid-sized metro non-hub airports. 

Tampa is probably in a similar boat. Hub for no major airlines, but service from Aeromexico, Air Canada, British, Cayman, Copa, Discover, Edelweiss, Porter, Virgin Atlantic, and West Jet. San Diego is also with Air Canada, British, Japan Airlines, Lufthansa, and West Jet which is pretty good for being relatively isolated from Europe and having one single 9,400 foot runway that can impact the types of planes capable to land. 

Orlando and Las Vegas aren't really connecting hubs, but  obviously anomalies given tourism demand. 

Edited March 17 by CLT2014

[Richhamleigh, DC]

I think of Tampa and SD as being large metros and Orlando and Vegas are, as you say, global tourism destinations.  

[csweet]

On 3/4/2024 at 2:29 PM, LKN704 said:

Thanks for the nice comment, I appreciate it!

JetBlue is in pretty poor financial condition at present, and they are due to implement a massive cost savings initiative within the coming months that will include a network realignment.  This summer, CLT-BOS drops down to a single daily service on T/W/Sa. Unfortunately, CLT is exactly the kind of market that I expect they may drop as part of the realignment. Other cities that solely saw BOS service (IAD, BWI) have also been closed over the past couple of years. 

 

Great news, CLT survived! Sad to see other cities, like MCI, get dropped. Hopefully this new B6 structure does allow for sustainable growth (JFK?) 

[LKN704]

32 minutes ago, csweet said:

Great news, CLT survived! Sad to see other cities, like MCI, get dropped. Hopefully this new B6 structure does allow for sustainable growth (JFK?) 

The cuts are a lot less deep than I thought, and aren't too surprising...I am kind of surprised to see them close most of their South American stations. Their intra-west Los Angeles network performed horribly - routes were flying with just a 50 percent load factor. The JetBlue model just doesn't work in California...Virgin America also figured this out. Californians actually prefer the cattle-car, no-frills Southwest-style of flying. 

It's my understanding that their European network also performs horribly, but the company believes the losses are worthwhile (for now).

JetBlue has tried a number things over the years that simply did not work - their former hub/focus city at Washington Dulles comes to mind. They need to focus their assets on their core markets of NYC and Boston - particularly Boston, where their market share has declined since the pandemic. 

Glad to see Charlotte remains. 

Edited March 19 by LKN704

[xapostrophe]

16 hours ago, LKN704 said:

The cuts are a lot less deep than I thought, and aren't too surprising...I am kind of surprised to see them close most of their South American stations. Their intra-west Los Angeles network performed horribly - routes were flying with just a 50 percent load factor. The JetBlue model just doesn't work in California...Virgin America also figured this out. Californians actually prefer the cattle-car, no-frills Southwest-style of flying. 

It's my understanding that their European network also performs horribly, but the company believes the losses are worthwhile (for now).

JetBlue has tried a number things over the years that simply did not work - their former hub/focus city at Washington Dulles comes to mind. They need to focus their assets on their core markets of NYC and Boston - particularly Boston, where their market share has declined since the pandemic. 

Glad to see Charlotte remains. 

As an AA employee, I would love to see AA gain more market share back in new york and boston.  Heck, even LAX.  But the slot/gate situation everywhere puts a damper on that.

[LKN704]

2 hours ago, xapostrophe said:

As an AA employee, I would love to see AA gain more market share back in new york and boston.  Heck, even LAX.  But the slot/gate situation everywhere puts a damper on that.

Ironically even though they took a buzzsaw to their LAX network (dropping over 15 destinations since the pandemic), AA still has more gates than any other carrier at LAX.  It's not really a slot situation at JFK either - for years AA had slots at JFK that were unused and AA management publicly admitted that they were forced to give up slots at JFK simply because they were unaware that they possessed them - in short, even when AA had the slots at JFK, they didn't know how to use them effectively. 

The reality is that markets like LAX and NYC are filled with folks who actually care about the product, and that clientele is simply not AA's target market. As AA management has said publicly time and time again, the schedule is the product, and the company is not prepared to compete in markets where they might have to compete on product. International opportunities are out, markets like El Paso (a city that AA management continuously brings up) are now the cities where AA sees pathways to profitability and marketshare. 

Things like seatback video entertainment really don't matter to a lot of people, but it does matter when competing in a high yielding market like NYC/WAS/LAX. I can't think of any reason why anyone who lives in NYC would actively choose to fly AA when Delta, JetBlue, and United offer a better product and schedule. It's not for nothing that United is spending billions and billions of dollars to add seatback entertainment to its domestic fleet. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

6 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Ironically even though they took a buzzsaw to their LAX network (dropping over 15 destinations since the pandemic), AA still has more gates than any other carrier at LAX.  It's not really a slot situation at JFK either - for years AA had slots at JFK that were unused and AA management publicly admitted that they were forced to give up slots at JFK simply because they were unaware that they possessed them - in short, even when AA had the slots at JFK, they didn't know how to use them effectively. 

The reality is that markets like LAX and NYC are filled with folks who actually care about the product, and that clientele is simply not AA's target market. As AA management has said publicly time and time again, the schedule is the product, and the company is not prepared to compete in markets where they might have to compete on product. International opportunities are out, markets like El Paso (a city that AA management continuously brings up) are now the cities where AA sees pathways to profitability and marketshare. 

Things like seatback video entertainment really don't matter to a lot of people, but it does matter when competing in a high yielding market like NYC/WAS/LAX. I can't think of any reason why anyone who lives in NYC would actively choose to fly AA when Delta, JetBlue, and United offer a better product and schedule. It's not for nothing that United is spending billions and billions of dollars to add seatback entertainment to its domestic fleet. 

AA has 28 gates at LAX and Delta has 28 (with codeshares) under the new configuration at LAX. Delta now has the most flights and passengers. Delta is lapping United and AA with terminal upgrades too at LGA, BOS (and SLC, DTW, MSP and ATL).

As a Delta loyalist, I love it. 

Edited March 21 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[KJHburg]

CLT average domestic fares are falling however still much higher than RDU for example.    From the Biz Journal article today  Airports where fares are falling - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com) so CLT on the list for most reduced fares according to Cirium Inc. 

San Juan, Puerto Rico	$204.73	$166.48	-18.68%
Orlando	$150.72	$126.51	-16.06%
Raleigh/Durham, N.C.	$189.42	$161.84	-14.56%
Cleveland	$182.40	$155.90	-14.53%
Portland, Oregon	$228.86	$195.82	-14.43%
Seattle	$228.87	$199.82	-12.69%
Philadelphia	$204.69	$179.61	-12.25%
Detroit	$205.14	$182.73	-10.92%
Charlotte-Douglas, N.C.	$217.22	$193.50	-10.92%
Los Angeles	$228.11	$203.40	-10.83%

[Vitamin_N]

A recent thread on Reddit entitled "Worst Airport in America?" drew a bunch of upvotes and comments. I'll let you guess which airport they're talking about.

[davidclt]

15 hours ago, Vitamin_N said:

A recent thread on Reddit entitled "Worst Airport in America?" drew a bunch of upvotes and comments. I'll let you guess which airport they're talking about.

But . . .  but . . .  but . . . it's so "cheap" for American Airlines. . . So who cares if the experience is trash for the people who actually have to use the airport?

[LKN704]

Forget the crowded gate areas. Forget the nasty bathrooms. Forget the fact that you are about to board a cramped AA "Oasis" plane. 

The worst part about walking through B/C is easily the lack of spatial awareness people have - it's as if some folks have never been out in public before. 

Also, what is that man leaning on in the right hand side of the photo - a casket?

[Temeteron]

21 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Forget the crowded gate areas. Forget the nasty bathrooms. Forget the fact that you are about to board a cramped AA "Oasis" plane. 

The worst part about walking through B/C is easily the lack of spatial awareness people have - it's as if some folks have never been out in public before. 

Also, what is that man leaning on in the right hand side of the photo - a casket?

I am a Flight attendant for AA (based in Chicago at the moment) and I can’t tell you how many times I hear flight attendants say “oh I hate Charlotte!”.  They say it because they hate the airport not necessarily because of the city.  A lot of them avoid getting work trips to CLT.  But I just find it sad because it prevents them from seeing such a beautiful city.  Another thing that bugs me is a lot of times when I have Charlotte layovers (I’m from Charlotte by the way),  a lot of the flight attendants only walk one block from the hotel and then they say Charlotte is boring.  I’m like dude…..come on….SMH

Edited March 26 by Temeteron

[videtur quam contuor]

Attendants and cabin crew are required to walk through the concourses same as passengers for all work assignments? No other access?

[Temeteron]

3 minutes ago, videtur quam contuor said:

Attendants and cabin crew are required to walk through the concourses same as passengers for all work assignments? No other access?

We have employee lounge but yes we have to walk through the hallways to get to the gate so we can get on the plane.  There’s no other way around it.  

[LKN704]

36 minutes ago, videtur quam contuor said:

Attendants and cabin crew are required to walk through the concourses same as passengers for all work assignments? No other access?

That's how it works in the United States and Canada.

Crews at some foreign carriers overseas typically start/end their work assignment at an airline operations center/HQ/office building located on or adjacent to airport property and then take a shuttle bus directly to the aircraft.