Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[KJHburg]

Orange County John Wayne is my favorite SoCal airport good to see nonstops there from here.  Much nicer to fly into than LAX for sure.  I dont think we would ever have service into Burbank their runways seem very short.   But with LAX, Orange County and Ontario that is the 3 major airports of the Southland.   Long Beach is between Orange County and LAX so probably not service to that one either.  

[CLT2014]

Orange County is slot restricted, so it looks like AA is running an experiment to see if this is a more efficient use of their late evening departure slot from SNA. Currently AA is running 5x daily to Phoenix from SNA, with the last flight landing in Phoenix at 9:20PM which misses the Phoenix hub's last bank of the day for connections. Essentially that 5th flight to Phoenix is 100% O&D travel between Orange County and Phoenix and probably not a great performer. 

By shifting the slot to Charlotte though, AA has to make some other compromises.... Orange County has a very strict ban on departures after 10PM... which would be optimal for a red-eye to the East Coast, but not allowed. AA also needs to add padding for taxiing and delays to avoid having to cancel the flight.... so they have a 9:21PM departure time to be wheels up before the noise curfew (the only other flight that leaves later is Delta 731 to Atlanta). Any major delays will lead to a flight delayed to the morning after 7AM (which happens time-to-time for the Delta flight, I've risked that one before). The landing time of the red-eye to CLT is also 5AM. AA has a few other red-eyes that land a little after 5AM and it can be a brutal experience for tired connecting passengers milling about a relatively quiet airport where most restaurants haven't even opened yet. The Admirals Club does open at 5:15AM though. 

This flight will be ALL about connections so AA will see if OC travelers will accept the roughly 2 hour+ layover most will have to have access to the unique destinations offered by CLT over AA's other hubs. 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by CLT2014

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

19 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Orange County is slot restricted, so it looks like AA is running an experiment to see if this is a more efficient use of their late evening departure slot from SNA. Currently AA is running 5x daily to Phoenix from SNA, with the last flight landing in Phoenix at 9:20PM which misses the Phoenix hub's last bank of the day for connections. Essentially that 5th flight to Phoenix is 100% O&D travel between Orange County and Phoenix and probably not a great performer. 

By shifting the slot to Charlotte though, AA has to make some other compromises.... Orange County has a very strict ban on departures after 10PM... which would be optimal for a red-eye to the East Coast, but not allowed. AA also needs to add padding for taxiing and delays to avoid having to cancel the flight.... so they have a 9:21PM departure time to be wheels up before the noise curfew (the only other flight that leaves later is Delta 731 to Atlanta). Any major delays will lead to a flight delayed to the morning after 7AM (which happens time-to-time for the Delta flight, I've risked that one before). The landing time of the red-eye to CLT is also 5AM. AA has a few other red-eyes that land a little after 5AM and it can be a brutal experience for tired connecting passengers milling about a relatively quiet airport where most restaurants haven't even opened yet. The Admirals Club does open at 5:15AM though. 

This flight will be ALL about connections so AA will see if OC travelers will accept the roughly 2 hour+ layover most will have to have access to the unique destinations offered by CLT over AA's other hubs. 

 

From an experienced redeye flyer to ATL. The 5am arrival is much less painful than a 6:30-7:30 arrival. You can get home and sleep for a few hours before working that day... for connections, you have the potential to get home 2 hours early. 

[CLT2014]

27 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

From an experienced redeye flyer to ATL. The 5am arrival is much less painful than a 6:30-7:30 arrival. You can get home and sleep for a few hours before working that day... for connections, you have the potential to get home 2 hours early. 

Yes, my comment was more for the vast majority of the flight's connecting passengers as opposed to people ending their trip in Charlotte. Many passengers will have 2 hour - 4 hour connections with this flight, which is why a ~6AM arrival in Charlotte is preferable. The earliest connection opportunities start around 7 - 7:30AM to destinations in Florida and the Northeast. Arriving in Charlotte at 5AM just means you have 2 - 3 hours of waiting for your next flight in a bright terminal with constant announcements instead of 1 - 2 hours.  You don't get to your final destination / home any earlier by arriving in Charlotte at 5AM as the connecting flights don't even start until 7. Even then, the strongest early morning bank is 9AM... when you really unlock the power of the hub and have a more diverse set of destinations. 

Atlanta isn't comparable to this Charlotte flight for connecting passengers as Delta operates a bank of hub departures as early as 6AM meaning there are lots of reasonable 1 - 2 hour connections for that early 5AM red eye arrival from Orange County that Charlotte doesn't offer due to not having an 6AM bank.  

As somebody who would be an O&D traveler on this flight, I really hope it works because 5AM isn't bad for ending travel here. I just know CLT flights live and die by how successful the connections are for American. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by CLT2014

[LKN704]

14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Orange County John Wayne is my favorite SoCal airport good to see nonstops there from here.  Much nicer to fly into than LAX for sure.  I dont think we would ever have service into Burbank their runways seem very short.   But with LAX, Orange County and Ontario that is the 3 major airports of the Southland.   Long Beach is between Orange County and LAX so probably not service to that one either.  

Burbank's main runway is significantly longer than John Wayne's. Burbank has nonstop service to JFK on JetBlue...the flight is popular with B-List and C-List celebrities.

The chances of AA starting Long Beach service from Charlotte is zero, considering they will close their LGB station tomorrow. 

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Orange County is slot restricted, so it looks like AA is running an experiment to see if this is a more efficient use of their late evening departure slot from SNA. Currently AA is running 5x daily to Phoenix from SNA, with the last flight landing in Phoenix at 9:20PM which misses the Phoenix hub's last bank of the day for connections. Essentially that 5th flight to Phoenix is 100% O&D travel between Orange County and Phoenix and probably not a great performer. 

By shifting the slot to Charlotte though, AA has to make some other compromises.... Orange County has a very strict ban on departures after 10PM... which would be optimal for a red-eye to the East Coast, but not allowed. AA also needs to add padding for taxiing and delays to avoid having to cancel the flight.... so they have a 9:21PM departure time to be wheels up before the noise curfew (the only other flight that leaves later is Delta 731 to Atlanta). Any major delays will lead to a flight delayed to the morning after 7AM (which happens time-to-time for the Delta flight, I've risked that one before). The landing time of the red-eye to CLT is also 5AM. AA has a few other red-eyes that land a little after 5AM and it can be a brutal experience for tired connecting passengers milling about a relatively quiet airport where most restaurants haven't even opened yet. The Admirals Club does open at 5:15AM though. 

This flight will be ALL about connections so AA will see if OC travelers will accept the roughly 2 hour+ layover most will have to have access to the unique destinations offered by CLT over AA's other hubs. 

 

In my experience, AA usually diverts to LAX rather than delay until the next day. 

It must happen more often than not because up until recently (I don't see it printed anymore...unsure when/why they removed it) AA's Customer Service/Contingency Plan had this specific clause:

The Orange County/John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, California, has a curfew for inbound flights of 11 p.m. due to noise restrictions. If we are aware that headwinds will be particularly strong enroute and will impact the flight's arrival time, perhaps making the flight arrive too late to land at Orange County, an announcement will be made that it is possible that the flight will land at Los Angeles International Airport instead. In the event a diversion decision occurs after the aircraft has departed, the in-flight crew will inform you.

Edited February 27, 2023 by LKN704

[CLT2014]

22 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

Burbank's main runway is significantly longer than John Wayne's. Burbank has nonstop service to JFK on JetBlue...the flight is popular with B-List and C-List celebrities.

The chances of AA starting Long Beach service from Charlotte is zero, considering they will close their LGB station tomorrow. 

In my experience, AA usually diverts to LAX rather than delay until the next day. 

It must happen more often than not because up until recently (I don't see it printed anymore...unsure when/why they removed it) AA's Customer Service/Contingency Plan had this specific clause:

The Orange County/John Wayne Airport in Santa Ana, California, has a curfew for inbound flights of 11 p.m. due to noise restrictions. If we are aware that headwinds will be particularly strong enroute and will impact the flight's arrival time, perhaps making the flight arrive too late to land at Orange County, an announcement will be made that it is possible that the flight will land at Los Angeles International Airport instead. In the event a diversion decision occurs after the aircraft has departed, the in-flight crew will inform you.

Inbounds to SNA divert to LAX when they can't get on the ground by 11PM. Outbounds from SNA wait until the next day or get canceled if they can't get airborne by 10PM. The outbound from SNA to CLT AA is proposing departs at 9:21PM, but if there is a minor mechanical issue that takes longer than 40 minutes to fix or issues with boarding.... everybody off the plane. This flight and the Delta flight to Atlanta are the only two that chance not having a full hour buffer to the take-off curfew. The inbound plane that operates Delta's 9:30PM SNA departure arrives at 7PM and the plane then sits at the gate for 2.5 hours giving a very large buffer in case that inbound plane is late. You can't risk the inbound plane to SNA delaying that final departure or the flight is as good as canceled and won't be wheels up by 10PM. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by CLT2014

[kermit]

Just want to say (non-sarcastically) that I really love the airline operations nitty-gritty that so frequently makes it into this thread. I am quite impressed with the depth of knowledge here and I always feel like I learn things.  Thanks to all who share stuff about O/D traffic, yields,  curfews, load factors, etc!

Edited March 5, 2023 by kermit

[LKN704]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:20 PM, shado_jaguar said:

I think this is part of the long awaited atrium renovations that would add a mezzanine over the food court

https://charlottenc.gov/DoingBusiness/Lists/Solicitations/Attachments/810/RFQ 2018-08-005 Terminal Atrium and Mezzanine Renovations.pdf

see page 13

 

Interesting. Thanks for this link! I've never seen such a plan before. 

Not sure what I make of it. I like the openness of the current space now and I worry that a potential mezzanine would detract from that, even if it simply occupied space above the food court seating. 

Still don't know how that impacts the trees, as they were next to the moving sidewalks. Odd. 

33 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Inbounds to SNA divert to LAX when they can't get on the ground by 11PM. Outbounds from SNA wait until the next day or get canceled if they can't get airborne by 10PM. The outbound from SNA to CLT AA is proposing departs at 9:21PM, but if there is a minor mechanical issue that takes longer than 40 minutes to fix or issues with boarding.... everybody off the plane. This flight and the Delta flight to Atlanta are the only two that chance not having a full hour buffer to the take-off curfew. The inbound plane that operates Delta's 9:30PM SNA departure arrives at 7PM and the plane then sits at the gate for 2.5 hours giving a very large buffer in case that inbound plane is late. You can't risk the inbound plane to SNA delaying that final departure or the flight is as good as canceled and won't be wheels up by 10PM. 

Got it! I didn't read your original post correctly...I actually just came off a redeye this morning (that featured a rowdy group of high schoolers and their lackadaisical chaperones all juiced up on god knows what) and I'm not all with it.

[videtur quam contuor]

I travelled to/from France with a group of HS students and they were HAPPY to have a night flight home to recover from the journey.  We ran them hard to be sure no one had to rock us to sleep that night.

[KJHburg]

6 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Burbank's main runway is significantly longer than John Wayne's. Burbank has nonstop service to JFK on JetBlue...the flight is popular with B-List and C-List celebrities.

The chances of AA starting Long Beach service from Charlotte is zero, considering they will close their LGB station tomorrow. 

 

I guess it was my Southwest flight into Burbank that had a hard quick landing is why I thought their runway was shorter.  I thought we were going to end up on the 5 freeway.  My descent into Orange County was much more normal.  I was aware of curfew of night arrivals at that airport.  Still great we will get service to Orange County I mean the county has over 2 M people! 

[rancenc]

The federal government has allocated another $1 billion dollars to airports for fiscal year 2023.  Charlotte gets millions of dollars for Concourse E upgrades and improvements.

https://www.faa.gov/bil/airport-terminals

[uptownliving]

Delta Sky Club in A North Phase 2?

I can confirm that in the building permits for A North Phase 2 which they recently started construction on specifically mentions "airline club"  on the Mezzanine level, this is the level above the boarding gates. We all know its primarily going to be Delta over there, so it only makes sense that we  will be finally getting a Delta Sky Club in about 2 years. woohoooo!

[Miesian Corners]

I flew in last night and noticed self-service kiosks and flight information display systems (FIDS) have been installed in the new ticketing area for Frontier, United, and Southwest.

[LKN704]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:55 PM, uptownliving said:

Delta Sky Club in A North Phase 2?

I can confirm that in the building permits for A North Phase 2 which they recently started construction on specifically mentions "airline club"  on the Mezzanine level, this is the level above the boarding gates. We all know its primarily going to be Delta over there, so it only makes sense that we  will be finally getting a Delta Sky Club in about 2 years. woohoooo!

An airline club was always planned for A North Phase II...floor plans that were released (not necessarily publicly, but they were present in the ASC's Call for Artists document for the pier) always showed a lounge space on the mezzanine level.

I agree that a Sky Club is the most likely candidate (especially considering there have been renderings released that showed a Sky Club occupying the space) but I will note that Delta has been building clubs lately that are rather large (at least 10k square feet)...I don't think that area on the mezzanine is that large, especially once you consider the kitchen and utility space necessary to operate such a facility. 

Delta's newest lounge that opened this past week in Kansas City is 11k square feet:

I recall a couple of years back Delta said they were considering "Sky Club-light" concepts that were smaller and had more of an emphasis on grab/go food and drink. 

[RANYC]

Salt Lake City's Airport is blowing me away.  And I've never seen baggage claim carousels this stunning.

[xapostrophe]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Salt Lake City's Airport is blowing me away.  And I've never seen baggage claim carousels this stunning.

One of the best airports right now.  Minus there being no train.   That's a long walk.

[RANYC]

2 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

One of the best airports right now.  Minus there being no train.   That's a long walk.

After Destination Charlotte, might we rival?

[xapostrophe]

11 hours ago, RANYC said:

After Destination Charlotte, might we rival?

Not a chance.  Maybe the new terminals will rival.  But salt lake is all new everything.  Plus those views!  

[Miesian Corners]

The new MCI airport is incredible. Meanwhile at CLT, still no moving sidewalks and two-year old terrazzo that looks like it was installed in 1942.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Miesian Corners
added photos

[videtur quam contuor]

Speaking as a lightly disabled person the moving sidewalks are not a gift, they are an expectation. Escalators and elevators within reasonable walking distance are also on my wish list.

Food delivery from the atrium (central service area) to the gates area would be interesting to test. 

[Miesian Corners]

3 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Speaking as a lightly disabled person the moving sidewalks are not a gift, they are an expectation. Escalators and elevators within reasonable walking distance are also on my wish list.

Food delivery from the atrium (central service area) to the gates area would be interesting to test. 

You can order gate delivery in CLT via the American app.

[LKN704]

I haven't been to Kansas City (and frankly probably never will) but I thought the photos of their new terminal were somewhat lackluster. Efficient and clean, but never going to win any awards. 

I thought the same thing when I was in Salt Lake City a couple of months back. The terminal is functional and a noticeable improvement, but spartan and barebones. It didn't look new to me for some reason (especially with the strange drop ceiling tiles everywhere)...it might as well have opened in 1998:

By contrast, Concourse A/B at Dulles will be 25 years old this year and looks more or less the same as the new SLC (minus the mountain views, of course):

[videtur quam contuor]

I was in New Orleans October and the new airport terminal is eye-catching. Much glass and glass walls are the first feature. Check in lines were a bit of a pain though they had CLEAR which was the first time I had seen that in my limited travels. Built with plenty of space for expansion of service so feels plenty wide and open now. Highway access is convenient and well planned due to modern renovation. In October the rental car locations were still across the field from the new terminal so renters were ferried to the far side for their vehicles or the cars ferried to them. Dunno the delay. This is another of the build new terminal on far side of field type  of airport. Charlotte did this also Indianapolis. These were airports with land abundant to do so. The former NO terminal had been allowed to become decrepit.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/06/new-orleans-airport-debuts-1point3-billion-terminal.html

[UrbanCharlotte]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/vasu-raja-a48417_big-things-are-happening-in-the-american-activity-7038541658065420288-xLkp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

 

What are the 9 flights?

[CLT2014]

26 minutes ago, UrbanCharlotte said:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/vasu-raja-a48417_big-things-are-happening-in-the-american-activity-7038541658065420288-xLkp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

What are the 9 flights?

Dublin
Frankurt
London (x3)
Madrid
Munich
Paris
Rome