Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[videtur quam contuor]

I was there Sunday at 3 pm and traffic as bad or worse. Plus left turns off Wilkinson into airport would block the box so east bound Wilkinson could not move making a general garbage dump of things. I was surprised there was not some road rage incident. I leave Monday 12:30 pm and hope for the best.

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

I leave Monday 12:30 pm and hope for the best.

Might be faster to drive to Greensboro and then fly to CLT…

[turbocraig]

Funny.  As luck would have it a friend is flying to Milwaukee this morning.  She sent me this pic 5 mins ago.  

[LKN704]

9 minutes ago, turbocraig said:

Funny.  As luck would have it a friend is flying to Milwaukee this morning.  She sent me this pic 5 mins ago.  

Welcome to CLT! That’s how the day ends of the concourses always look. 

[CLT2014]

The ends of Concourse B and C would be fine if CLT wasn't a hub, but because American runs a very traditional banked schedule, all 8 gates in the holding space at the end of C have flights that leave within 15 minutes of each other. With 8 Airbus A321s at the gate at the same time.... that's ~1,500 potential passengers waiting for a flight + 56 flight crew + wheelchairs + 20 gate agents + 1,500 passengers on arriving flights trying to go the OPPOSITE direction of everybody pushing towards the gates. Essentially you can have 3,000+ people in that holding space at the peak of the bank.... that's the entire amount of people that work in 25 story office building in Uptown..... all in that little holding room. 

Funny enough in that photo.... as soon as those 8 flights leave.... the gates are basically empty for an hour until the next bank of AA flights arrive and the whole process of overcrowding repeats itself. 

It is really amazing that CLT is such a profitable and successful hub for American, despite the infastructure being subpar for a 600+ daily flight hub operation. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by CLT2014

[CLT2014]

Re the construction:

The airport should be directing all private passengers vehicles to parking lots like the Hourly Deck and Business Valet Deck and only allowing shuttles to go curbside right now. People could wait to pick up their friends and family from a parking lot spot with a 1 hour grace period to parking charges due to the canopy construction. Curbside private passenger vehicles are also the least efficient loaders / unloaders (people don't drive to the end which is usually empty and all cluster at the very first stretch of curb). Shuttle drivers have assigned curbs and know the airport well so the back up would be minimized right now.

Edited October 7, 2022 by CLT2014

[gman430]

And certain politicians keep trying to tell us the economy is terrible and we’re in a recession. Pshhh…

[KJHburg]

9 hours ago, gman430 said:

And certain politicians keep trying to tell us the economy is terrible and we’re in a recession. Pshhh…

this is all due to all the departure traffic going to the arrivals area due to construction nothing less.  It is a mess but the upper roadway is supposed to be reopened in  a week or two.  when all the airport traffic goes into 1 or 2 lanes it is a mess for sure.  

[stiluvclt]

Some proxy observations: The CLT website pre-warned everyone that this closure and all of it’s contingencies we’re going to occur. Subsequently Hurricane Ian probably figured into the beginning of this announced 2 week period so I wouldn’t be surprised if the closure extends after this Thursday.  Here, all this time we’ve all assumed that the bulk of CLT biz was hub related. Looks to me like a lot more people are beginning or ending their trip in Charlotte. That should help sell the need for the Silver Line! Those videos of snarled traffic sure make a solid argument for rails to the airport!
 

 

[videtur quam contuor]

What would the airport do if there were an event that closed the Birmingham approach for arrivals and departures? Vehicle fire, just anything? Looking at a map it appears this is the only way to the terminal. 

If your answer is that traffic would wind through the garages then this trouble is nothing compared to that mess. 

[15895]

23 minutes ago, stiluvclt said:

Some proxy observations: The CLT website pre-warned everyone that this closure and all of it’s contingencies we’re going to occur. Subsequently Hurricane Ian probably figured into the beginning of this announced 2 week period so I wouldn’t be surprised if the closure extends after this Thursday.  Here, all this time we’ve all assumed that the bulk of CLT biz was hub related. Looks to me like a lot more people are beginning or ending their trip in Charlotte. That should help sell the need for the Silver Line! Those videos of snarled traffic sure make a solid argument for rails to the airport!
 

 

It wasn’t assumptions that the vast majority of passengers at Charlotte are people connecting through the airport. And the vast majority of passengers remain people connecting. 

But yeah. There is a need for the silver line for the airport and mobility through Charlotte in general. Hopefully the optics can build support for the silver line. Sucks that it is probably 10+years away at this point, though.  Though there are bus routes people could take to the airport. 

I can only assume the traffic is construction related? Given there is a large capital improvement going on with the pick-up/drop-off, it’s hard to think they built it inadequate to demand? 

Edited October 8, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT2014]

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

I can only assume the traffic is construction related? Given there is a large capital improvement going on with the pick-up/drop-off, it’s hard to think they built it inadequate to demand? 

Yes, it is completely construction related. The upper departures roadway is closed temporarily as they work on installation of the posts for the massive canopy that is being built as part of the airport renovation. This canopy will have the entire departure deck sheltered from the elements. During this temporary closure it is forcing all departure level traffic to also use the arrival level for about a 2 week time span, overloading the arrival lanes.

[gman430]

48 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Yes, it is completely construction related. The upper departures roadway is closed temporarily as they work on installation of the posts for the massive canopy that is being built as part of the airport renovation. This canopy will have the entire departure deck sheltered from the elements. During this temporary closure it is forcing all departure level traffic to also use the arrival level for about a 2 week time span, overloading the arrival lanes.

What dumb idiot thought this was a good idea? I’m sure they could have found a way to keep the departure lanes open or at least some of it during this construction. 

[LKN704]

27 minutes ago, gman430 said:

What dumb idiot thought this was a good idea? I’m sure they could have found a way to keep the departure lanes open or at least some of it during this construction. 

At the expense of extending the project out by X amount of time? 

It reminds me of a relative in Florida who was irate that they were going to close a bridge temporarily for 3 months for construction. The community launched a massive campaign, and the local government relented and agreed to keep a single lane open in both directions during the project, at the expense of the project being pushed back to take 12 months, to which the community complained incessantly, too. 

5 hours ago, stiluvclt said:

 Here, all this time we’ve all assumed that the bulk of CLT biz was hub related. Looks to me like a lot more people are beginning or ending their trip in Charlotte. That should help sell the need for the Silver Line! Those videos of snarled traffic sure make a solid argument for rails to the airport!

The snarled traffic is in no way indicative of increased origin/destination traffic in Charlotte, or indicative of a need for rail...it's just temporary construction traffic. 71% of all passenger traffic movements through CLT are connections (of the 71%, 66% of passengers are domestic-domestic transfers, roughly 4% are domestic-international transfers, and 1% are international-international transfers) and that number has stayed relatively constant over the years. 

I'm about as pro-transit as they come, and I have serious doubts about the viability of rail to CLT. I have no doubt in my mind that it will probably be built, but as I mentioned in the Long Term Transit Plan thread, I just consider it a boondoggle in its current form and frankly a project that isn't about bringing rail to CLT, but rather trying to spur development along Wilkinson Blvd. The western segment of the Silver Line has a daily estimated ridership of what, just 10K people? That will likely preclude the line from qualifying for any sort of federal funding, airport or not. 

Headways are the number one impediment to ridership on airport rail links. While you can say that on any new rapid transit line, once you factor in the anxiety that comes with air travel and the importance of being on time, ridership on any airport rail link will seriously decline on headways greater than say 12 minutes. 

Plus, one has to consider the Silver Line won't touch several "key" destinations, like University/NoDa/South End, and will require a transfer to/from the Blue Line. Will CATS provide timed transfers? The answer to that is likely (like 99.99999% likely) no, so you could have to wait 15 minutes to catch the Blue Line, ride 10 minutes and transfer, wait another 10 minutes for the Silver Line, ride 15 minutes (I'm estimating the time from Uptown to the Airport station...15 minutes is seems generous to me, and it will likely be 20-25) to the Airport station, wait 2 minutes for the people mover, ride 5 minutes on the people mover, before finally arriving at the terminal. That's 57 minutes. You can Uber from the Southend to the Airport in 14 minutes, or from UNCC to the Airport in 22 minutes. 

The only people that are going to take that 57 minute journey are either the pro-transit crowd with time to waste, or those who cannot afford the price of an Uber/Lyft. Most business travelers likely won't use the service, as they often can just expense away the cost of Uber or Lyft. 

On 10/7/2022 at 11:42 AM, CLT2014 said:

It is really amazing that CLT is such a profitable and successful hub for American, despite the infastructure being subpar for a 600+ daily flight hub operation. 

Part of the reason CLT is so profitable for AA is that the infrastructure at CLT is bare bones and dilapidated. No fancy expensive terminals here!

Another thing that is often overlooked is the specific fleet types that AA moves through CLT and how that factors into the overall profitability of the hub. 

To my knowledge, with the exception of some domestic segments that utilize the fancy, newer A319 with winglets, most CLT mainline domestic departures are on older planes...older 738s from the early 2000s and old US Airways A319/A320/A321s...some of which date back to the 1990s. The 738s and A321s have been fully refurbished so you can't really tell their age...but some of those A320s are nasty on the inside...several still have the cigarette-style "EmPower" power outlets that haven't been available in years, and still have in-seat audio controls for entertainment systems that were ripped out in the mid 2000s. 

The point is, all of those planes are likely fully paid for and inexpensive to operate. All intercontinental flights are operated by 77Es, which I also believe are fully paid for. 

I don't think CLT sees any AA flights operated by 737 Max 8s, A321NEOs, or the legacy AA variant of the A321 (these are equipped with winglets and formerly had in-seat video until the monitors were ripped out last year).

Obviously there is a performance reason why certain planes aren't used in CLT (for example a standard A321 can fly CLT-West Coast easily but would struggle on PHL-West Coast in the Winter Months, so PHL gets the NEO instead) but fully paid for aircraft are inherently cheaper to operate. There's a reason why Delta flew their ancient MD80 fleet for so long...

[xapostrophe]

15 hours ago, LKN704 said:

At the expense of extending the project out by X amount of time? 

It reminds me of a relative in Florida who was irate that they were going to close a bridge temporarily for 3 months for construction. The community launched a massive campaign, and the local government relented and agreed to keep a single lane open in both directions during the project, at the expense of the project being pushed back to take 12 months, to which the community complained incessantly, too. 

The snarled traffic is in no way indicative of increased origin/destination traffic in Charlotte, or indicative of a need for rail...it's just temporary construction traffic. 71% of all passenger traffic movements through CLT are connections (of the 71%, 66% of passengers are domestic-domestic transfers, roughly 4% are domestic-international transfers, and 1% are international-international transfers) and that number has stayed relatively constant over the years. 

I'm about as pro-transit as they come, and I have serious doubts about the viability of rail to CLT. I have no doubt in my mind that it will probably be built, but as I mentioned in the Long Term Transit Plan thread, I just consider it a boondoggle in its current form and frankly a project that isn't about bringing rail to CLT, but rather trying to spur development along Wilkinson Blvd. The western segment of the Silver Line has a daily estimated ridership of what, just 10K people? That will likely preclude the line from qualifying for any sort of federal funding, airport or not. 

Headways are the number one impediment to ridership on airport rail links. While you can say that on any new rapid transit line, once you factor in the anxiety that comes with air travel and the importance of being on time, ridership on any airport rail link will seriously decline on headways greater than say 12 minutes. 

Plus, one has to consider the Silver Line won't touch several "key" destinations, like University/NoDa/South End, and will require a transfer to/from the Blue Line. Will CATS provide timed transfers? The answer to that is likely (like 99.99999% likely) no, so you could have to wait 15 minutes to catch the Blue Line, ride 10 minutes and transfer, wait another 10 minutes for the Silver Line, ride 15 minutes (I'm estimating the time from Uptown to the Airport station...15 minutes is seems generous to me, and it will likely be 20-25) to the Airport station, wait 2 minutes for the people mover, ride 5 minutes on the people mover, before finally arriving at the terminal. That's 57 minutes. You can Uber from the Southend to the Airport in 14 minutes, or from UNCC to the Airport in 22 minutes. 

The only people that are going to take that 57 minute journey are either the pro-transit crowd with time to waste, or those who cannot afford the price of an Uber/Lyft. Most business travelers likely won't use the service, as they often can just expense away the cost of Uber or Lyft. 

Part of the reason CLT is so profitable for AA is that the infrastructure at CLT is bare bones and dilapidated. No fancy expensive terminals here!

Another thing that is often overlooked is the specific fleet types that AA moves through CLT and how that factors into the overall profitability of the hub. 

To my knowledge, with the exception of some domestic segments that utilize the fancy, newer A319 with winglets, most CLT mainline domestic departures are on older planes...older 738s from the early 2000s and old US Airways A319/A320/A321s...some of which date back to the 1990s. The 738s and A321s have been fully refurbished so you can't really tell their age...but some of those A320s are nasty on the inside...several still have the cigarette-style "EmPower" power outlets that haven't been available in years, and still have in-seat audio controls for entertainment systems that were ripped out in the mid 2000s. 

The point is, all of those planes are likely fully paid for and inexpensive to operate. All intercontinental flights are operated by 77Es, which I also believe are fully paid for. 

I don't think CLT sees any AA flights operated by 737 Max 8s, A321NEOs, or the legacy AA variant of the A321 (these are equipped with winglets and formerly had in-seat video until the monitors were ripped out last year).

Obviously there is a performance reason why certain planes aren't used in CLT (for example a standard A321 can fly CLT-West Coast easily but would struggle on PHL-West Coast in the Winter Months, so PHL gets the NEO instead) but fully paid for aircraft are inherently cheaper to operate. There's a reason why Delta flew their ancient MD80 fleet for so long...

The gates in CLT are also a limiting factor on the "sharklet" airbuses.  They have a larger wingspan and don't the existing gate areas.   We get them sometimes.   I see Max's fairly often recently. The "paid off" status of an airplane doesn't matter. 

[KJHburg]

Update directly from CLT on the new canopy.

https://cltairport.mediaroom.com/Upper_Roadway_Partially_Reopens

[LKN704]

^Exactly why a full shutdown of the upper lanes was needed at specific times. It's hefty construction work. 

On 10/9/2022 at 8:20 AM, xapostrophe said:

The gates in CLT are also a limiting factor on the "sharklet" airbuses.  They have a larger wingspan and don't the existing gate areas.   We get them sometimes. 

Interesting, thanks. I had no idea the sharklets added such a significant length to the wingspan.

[JRCLT]

People who complain about construction accommodations are ill informed. If there was a way to limit the disruptions they would have tried their best to find that solution and also keep a reasonable timeline. Also those who complain about the airport always being under construction or any infrastructure for that matter are probably the ones that would complain when the infrastructure wasn’t adequate. Or worst, blame it on too much people (they are the people and what makes them any better than anyone else? Just because they’ve been here longer? Or were born here? None of which are truly valid). That’s not to say there isn’t another way that could be as efficient and less disruptive. If someone had all the time in the world they could probably find the most efficient way possible, but that isn’t realistic nor practical. That’s all I have to say on the matter.

To improve there are challenges to overcome.

[49er]

If people complained this much about road construction all of our roads would still be gravel...

[InSouthPark]

13 hours ago, JeanClt said:

People who complain about construction accommodations are ill informed. If there was a way to limit the disruptions they would have tried their best to find that solution and also keep a reasonable timeline. Also those who complain about the airport always being under construction or any infrastructure for that matter are probably the ones that would complain when the infrastructure wasn’t adequate. Or worst, blame it on too much people (they are the people and what makes them any better than anyone else? Just because they’ve been here longer? Or were born here? None of which are truly valid). That’s not to say there isn’t another way that could be as efficient and less disruptive. If someone had all the time in the world they could probably find the most efficient way possible, but that isn’t realistic nor practical. That’s all I have to say on the matter.

To improve there are challenges to overcome.

BS - The could have created a "drop off / pickup only" lot and direct everyone to it (of course only maybe 50% of people would use it but whatever) and bus people directly to/from the terminal and significantly reduced the number of cars going to the lower level.  Instead of needing to get to the airport 3hrs early, you could cut at least 30min off that.  More buses in the lower level, less cars. 

Instead they had literally NO plan to deal with it. None.  "Just arrive really early" is not a plan.  

People were literally walking in from Wilkinson. 

[Reverie39]

15 hours ago, JeanClt said:

People who complain about construction accommodations are ill informed. If there was a way to limit the disruptions they would have tried their best to find that solution and also keep a reasonable timeline. Also those who complain about the airport always being under construction or any infrastructure for that matter are probably the ones that would complain when the infrastructure wasn’t adequate. Or worst, blame it on too much people (they are the people and what makes them any better than anyone else? Just because they’ve been here longer? Or were born here? None of which are truly valid). That’s not to say there isn’t another way that could be as efficient and less disruptive. If someone had all the time in the world they could probably find the most efficient way possible, but that isn’t realistic nor practical. That’s all I have to say on the matter.

To improve there are challenges to overcome.

I agree but I make an exception for Pennsylvania highways. Those things have been under construction since the Revolutionary War, and for some reason Pennsylvania feels the need to construct these concrete barriers that squeeze your lanes and press you up against one of the 10,000,000 trucks constantly moving through those roads. I will complain about that every time I have to deal with it. All things considered Charlotte and NC have done a decent job minimizing disruptions for construction projects imo.

[JRCLT]

BS - The could have created a "drop off / pickup only" lot and direct everyone to it (of course only maybe 50% of people would use it but whatever) and bus people directly to/from the terminal and significantly reduced the number of cars going to the lower level.  Instead of needing to get to the airport 3hrs early, you could cut at least 30min off that.  More buses in the lower level, less cars. 
Instead they had literally NO plan to deal with it. None.  "Just arrive really early" is not a plan.  
People were literally walking in from Wilkinson. 

I did say it may not have been the most perfect choice. There are many solutions to a problem when it comes to engineering/construction but only a few will fit your criteria. Making these decisions seems easy when you don’t have all of the necessary details. There a regulations, safety measures, cost measures, etc. that have to be followed or accounted for in a plan. What you propose may not be feasible for one or more reasons mentioned above or that I may have not mentioned. That’s not to say there isn’t another option that was not considered, but chances are this was the best abiding, and cost/time effective option. Why would the airport hurt its own business…? (Just cause its the only international airport in the area doesn’t mean people are guaranteed to go there. I know others who drive to other airports for cheaper flights other than CLT and or because they don’t like CLT).

[uptownliving]

22 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

BS - The could have created a "drop off / pickup only" lot and direct everyone to it (of course only maybe 50% of people would use it but whatever) and bus people directly to/from the terminal and significantly reduced the number of cars going to the lower level.  Instead of needing to get to the airport 3hrs early, you could cut at least 30min off that.  More buses in the lower level, less cars. 

Instead they had literally NO plan to deal with it. None.  "Just arrive really early" is not a plan.  

People were literally walking in from Wilkinson. 

For decades the management of CLT has been notorious for doing things as cheaply as possible. Your idea is obviously superior from a logistics standpoint but I'm sure when they were presented with the cost of doing that that is when they decided to just do a big PR campaign.

Just for reference to achieve your 50% reduction it would have to be roughly 25,000+ people per day using those buses to get from a drop off point to the terminal building. It would be roughly speaking 80 bus trips per hour to move that many people. So a fleet of 20 buses running on 15 minute intervals. The existing parking shuttles can't be used as they are already full. Additional buses would be needed for 2 weeks.

Edited October 13, 2022 by uptownliving
additional info

[InSouthPark]

12 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I did say it may not have been the most perfect choice. There are many solutions to a problem when it comes to engineering/construction but only a few will fit your criteria. Making these decisions seems easy when you don’t have all of the necessary details. There a regulations, safety measures, cost measures, etc. that have to be followed or accounted for in a plan. What you propose may not be feasible for one or more reasons mentioned above or that I may have not mentioned. That’s not to say there isn’t another option that was not considered, but chances are this was the best abiding, and cost/time effective option. Why would the airport hurt its own business…? (Just cause its the only international airport in the area doesn’t mean people are guaranteed to go there. I know others who drive to other airports for cheaper flights other than CLT and or because they don’t like CLT).

There was NO solution. None.  

They just closed the upper level and said "Good Luck" to everyone.  

[Miesian Corners]

I watched the long video about CLT construction staging again. The canopy was to be "installed at night." What I can't figure out is why it took two weeks to deliver and install three trusses to the new building and drop a single truss over the roadway. What does this say for the next section of the expansion when it comes time to complete the canopy? I can only imagine it will be far worse. The LGA reconstruction staging was better planned and executed--and that was for an entirely new building on one of the busiest roadways in the country's largest city.