Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[FLOSC843]

IMO the one in Tampa is pretty nice. Gresham Smith, the same group who worked on the lobby extension for CLT,  helped with the design-build of this one.  Are people movers completely owned and operated by the airport or is there some involvement by the local transit authority?

https://www.greshamsmith.com/project/tpa-skyconnect-automated-people-mover-and-rental-car-center/

[Temeteron]

Recently new flight attendant here (from Charlotte) but based at O’hare.  I find it strange where the KCM is at CLT. It’s easy to find, once you walk in basically, but then we go through the kitchen hallway of the food court lol. I wonder if they will change it when everything is finished 

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, FLOSC843 said:

IMO the one in Tampa is pretty nice. Gresham Smith, the same group who worked on the lobby extension for CLT,  helped with the design-build of this one.  Are people movers completely owned and operated by the airport or is there some involvement by the local transit authority?

https://www.greshamsmith.com/project/tpa-skyconnect-automated-people-mover-and-rental-car-center/

Inter-terminal APMs that in the sterile, secure area (aka behind security) are typically owned and operated by the local airport, at least in the US. They aren't public transit...they are essentially no different than airport shuttle buses except for their mode of transport.

The only secure/sterile APM system I can think of that has some sort of partnership with the local transit authority is the one in Hong Kong, which I believe is operated by the MTR Corporation. 

Public APM systems before security, like ones that go from the terminal to distant garages, rental car centers, or to transit stations (like the one you brought up from Tampa)  are sometimes owned and operated by both the airport and the local transit agency. I'm not sure who operates the Skyconnect system in Tampa, but the new LAX People Mover connecting the terminals to the new Metro line is going to be operated as a joint-venture between LAX, Metro, and a few private sector entities. 

[FLOSC843]

^I was learning towards that being the case but was also curious, thanks. I did see similar to LAX , San Fran's AirTrain connects to BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) but I'm not not certain if it's jointly operated or not. 

[LKN704]

I feel like I constantly flip-flop on my outlook of Concourse E in terms of the overall passenger experience...from a distance, I’m usually like “Oh it isn’t that bad” but then when I fly through it…it’s a steaming pile of you know what. 

I landed on Saturday at one of the gates that didn’t have a jetway, and instead of using the portable ramps, we used the CRJ’s integrated stairs…which is fine for me personally. It’s always fun to walk down after you’ve had a few rounds on the plane...those four steps might as well be the Grand Canyon. Anyways, the forward FA instructed an elderly woman in row 1 not to disembark but to wait until everyone else had left and then she would make sure she got assistance down the stairs…this woman would not have it, and decided to disembark by herself, which took almost 5 minutes just for her to make it to the ground. Not complaining about the woman per se, but it wouldn’t have happened if all E gates had jetbridges. 

I’m assuming that the Piedmont staff at E are short staffed because it looked like there was only one person unloading the valet tagged bags, and they hadn’t even started to unload when I deplaned. Instead of putting them on a cart, he took them all off the aircraft, lined them up against the fuselage, and then wheeled them over to the walkway one by one…my bag was one of the first to be unloaded and the process still took forever. I get that this is the experience when flying on a CRJ, but the tarmac of Concourse E provides a welcome kiss of the Carolina humidity while waiting for your bag. The heat/humidity must have made me delirious, because I came up with a song while waiting (to the tune of Piano Man):

It's 7PM on a Saturday, the vacation crowd shuffles down

underneath the confines of Concourse E,

They're tryin' to get outta this town

They say, "miss can you give our trip a voice”, as the regional jet rumbles by, 

"Cause were hot and were fraught, and we haven't a shot

to make it on the standby line"

Oh, la, la-la, di-di-da

La-la di-di-da da-dum

Of course, the physical concourse building is equally as steamy thanks to all the physical gate doors that open directly to the outside. Then, you have to fight upstream from all the people wearing Aloha/Southern Tide/Bahama attire going to Kalamazoo and/or Peoria who are blocking most of the concourse and sitting on the floor because the gate spaces are so small. Once you combine that with the NC State Fair-standard bathrooms (in terms of cleanliness), and it’s a more thrilling experience than the actual flight! Kind of a shame, because I find the PSA CRJ-900s to be comfortable in both cabins, outside of having to valet check your bags. PSA crew themselves are usually consistently excellent as well IMO. 

Leaving CLT today, I got to walk through the new ticketing lobby. I thought it was a bit confusing in terms of directional signage. The UA/AC/F9 ticket counters were behind the retaining wall in the image below of the lobby, and you accessed the counters through a stanchioned-walkway next to the B Checkpoint. Even crewmembers seemed to be getting confused because they couldn’t find the KCM access area and had to ask for help. The TSA queue was larger for both standard and Precheck (not in terms of number of people waiting but rather the length of the physical queue line), because it had to snake its way from the new ticketing lobby, past the UA/AC ticket counter, until it finally reached the physical checkpoint. 

CLT should totally be avant-garde and just permanently leave the statue up like this with the dust cloth on. 

I can’t remember if this was recently done and if I talked about its removal before, but they finally replaced that ugly marron ribbon that ran the length of the atrium windows with a metallic-y blue ribbon that looks 100% better and literally brightens up the space and makes the atrium appear more modern. 

Finally, someone at Amex must have taken my advice to heart because the Centurion Lounge was no longer serving southern food! For hot food today, they had these really good chicken thighs, cavatappi pasta with pesto sauce with mushrooms and sundried tomatoes, stuffed shells with ricotta, along with the usual selection of cold options, soups, and salads. They also have full-size dinner plates now, as opposed to the little salad plates they were using before. 

[xapostrophe]

15 hours ago, LKN704 said:

I feel like I constantly flip-flop on my outlook of Concourse E in terms of the overall passenger experience...from a distance, I’m usually like “Oh it isn’t that bad” but then when I fly through it…it’s a steaming pile of you know what. 

I landed on Saturday at one of the gates that didn’t have a jetway, and instead of using the portable ramps, we used the CRJ’s integrated stairs…which is fine for me personally. It’s always fun to walk down after you’ve had a few rounds on the plane...those four steps might as well be the Grand Canyon. Anyways, the forward FA instructed an elderly woman in row 1 not to disembark but to wait until everyone else had left and then she would make sure she got assistance down the stairs…this woman would not have it, and decided to disembark by herself, which took almost 5 minutes just for her to make it to the ground. Not complaining about the woman per se, but it wouldn’t have happened if all E gates had jetbridges. 

I’m assuming that the Piedmont staff at E are short staffed because it looked like there was only one person unloading the valet tagged bags, and they hadn’t even started to unload when I deplaned. Instead of putting them on a cart, he took them all off the aircraft, lined them up against the fuselage, and then wheeled them over to the walkway one by one…my bag was one of the first to be unloaded and the process still took forever. I get that this is the experience when flying on a CRJ, but the tarmac of Concourse E provides a welcome kiss of the Carolina humidity while waiting for your bag. The heat/humidity must have made me delirious, because I came up with a song while waiting (to the tune of Piano Man):

It's 7PM on a Saturday, the vacation crowd shuffles down

underneath the confines of Concourse E,

They're tryin' to get outta this town

They say, "miss can you give our trip a voice”, as the regional jet rumbles by, 

"Cause were hot and were fraught, and we haven't a shot

to make it on the standby line"

Oh, la, la-la, di-di-da

La-la di-di-da da-dum

Of course, the physical concourse building is equally as steamy thanks to all the physical gate doors that open directly to the outside. Then, you have to fight upstream from all the people wearing Aloha/Southern Tide/Bahama attire going to Kalamazoo and/or Peoria who are blocking most of the concourse and sitting on the floor because the gate spaces are so small. Once you combine that with the NC State Fair-standard bathrooms (in terms of cleanliness), and it’s a more thrilling experience than the actual flight! Kind of a shame, because I find the PSA CRJ-900s to be comfortable in both cabins, outside of having to valet check your bags. PSA crew themselves are usually consistently excellent as well IMO. 

Leaving CLT today, I got to walk through the new ticketing lobby. I thought it was a bit confusing in terms of directional signage. The UA/AC/F9 ticket counters were behind the retaining wall in the image below of the lobby, and you accessed the counters through a stanchioned-walkway next to the B Checkpoint. Even crewmembers seemed to be getting confused because they couldn’t find the KCM access area and had to ask for help. The TSA queue was larger for both standard and Precheck (not in terms of number of people waiting but rather the length of the physical queue line), because it had to snake its way from the new ticketing lobby, past the UA/AC ticket counter, until it finally reached the physical checkpoint. 

CLT should totally be avant-garde and just permanently leave the statue up like this with the dust cloth on. 

I can’t remember if this was recently done and if I talked about its removal before, but they finally replaced that ugly marron ribbon that ran the length of the atrium windows with a metallic-y blue ribbon that looks 100% better and literally brightens up the space and makes the atrium appear more modern. 

Finally, someone at Amex must have taken my advice to heart because the Centurion Lounge was no longer serving southern food! For hot food today, they had these really good chicken thighs, cavatappi pasta with pesto sauce with mushrooms and sundried tomatoes, stuffed shells with ricotta, along with the usual selection of cold options, soups, and salads. They also have full-size dinner plates now, as opposed to the little salad plates they were using before. 

I believe they're in the process of installing jet bridges on all or most of the gates on E con.   They're also updating the bridges on the other concourses.

[Reverie39]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:44 PM, LKN704 said:

I feel like I constantly flip-flop on my outlook of Concourse E in terms of the overall passenger experience...from a distance, I’m usually like “Oh it isn’t that bad” but then when I fly through it…it’s a steaming pile of you know what. 

I landed on Saturday at one of the gates that didn’t have a jetway, and instead of using the portable ramps, we used the CRJ’s integrated stairs…which is fine for me personally. It’s always fun to walk down after you’ve had a few rounds on the plane...those four steps might as well be the Grand Canyon. Anyways, the forward FA instructed an elderly woman in row 1 not to disembark but to wait until everyone else had left and then she would make sure she got assistance down the stairs…this woman would not have it, and decided to disembark by herself, which took almost 5 minutes just for her to make it to the ground. Not complaining about the woman per se, but it wouldn’t have happened if all E gates had jetbridges. 

I’m assuming that the Piedmont staff at E are short staffed because it looked like there was only one person unloading the valet tagged bags, and they hadn’t even started to unload when I deplaned. Instead of putting them on a cart, he took them all off the aircraft, lined them up against the fuselage, and then wheeled them over to the walkway one by one…my bag was one of the first to be unloaded and the process still took forever. I get that this is the experience when flying on a CRJ, but the tarmac of Concourse E provides a welcome kiss of the Carolina humidity while waiting for your bag. The heat/humidity must have made me delirious, because I came up with a song while waiting (to the tune of Piano Man):

It's 7PM on a Saturday, the vacation crowd shuffles down

underneath the confines of Concourse E,

They're tryin' to get outta this town

They say, "miss can you give our trip a voice”, as the regional jet rumbles by, 

"Cause were hot and were fraught, and we haven't a shot

to make it on the standby line"

Oh, la, la-la, di-di-da

La-la di-di-da da-dum

Of course, the physical concourse building is equally as steamy thanks to all the physical gate doors that open directly to the outside. Then, you have to fight upstream from all the people wearing Aloha/Southern Tide/Bahama attire going to Kalamazoo and/or Peoria who are blocking most of the concourse and sitting on the floor because the gate spaces are so small. Once you combine that with the NC State Fair-standard bathrooms (in terms of cleanliness), and it’s a more thrilling experience than the actual flight! Kind of a shame, because I find the PSA CRJ-900s to be comfortable in both cabins, outside of having to valet check your bags. PSA crew themselves are usually consistently excellent as well IMO. 

Leaving CLT today, I got to walk through the new ticketing lobby. I thought it was a bit confusing in terms of directional signage. The UA/AC/F9 ticket counters were behind the retaining wall in the image below of the lobby, and you accessed the counters through a stanchioned-walkway next to the B Checkpoint. Even crewmembers seemed to be getting confused because they couldn’t find the KCM access area and had to ask for help. The TSA queue was larger for both standard and Precheck (not in terms of number of people waiting but rather the length of the physical queue line), because it had to snake its way from the new ticketing lobby, past the UA/AC ticket counter, until it finally reached the physical checkpoint. 

CLT should totally be avant-garde and just permanently leave the statue up like this with the dust cloth on. 

I can’t remember if this was recently done and if I talked about its removal before, but they finally replaced that ugly marron ribbon that ran the length of the atrium windows with a metallic-y blue ribbon that looks 100% better and literally brightens up the space and makes the atrium appear more modern. 

Finally, someone at Amex must have taken my advice to heart because the Centurion Lounge was no longer serving southern food! For hot food today, they had these really good chicken thighs, cavatappi pasta with pesto sauce with mushrooms and sundried tomatoes, stuffed shells with ricotta, along with the usual selection of cold options, soups, and salads. They also have full-size dinner plates now, as opposed to the little salad plates they were using before. 

This is the funniest comment I've ever read here

[Miesian Corners]

CLT Upper Roadway Closure (Departures Level), 27SEP – 12OCT
 
CLT Airport will begin the next portion of major construction of the Terminal Lobby Expansion (TLE) project: CLT Canopy Installation. This project is slated to begin at 10:00pm on September 27th, 2022 and continue through October 12th, 2022.  The UPPER LEVEL roadway/ Departures will be closed during this time period. The project is anticipated to cause several significant impacts to our roadways and curbside operations.

Important Notes:

Express Deck bus will pick up and drop off on the Arrivals Level, in the bus lane Zone 2 during this two-week period

The Smoking Area will relocate to the east end of the Departures Level

Following the two-week closure, the Departures Level will close nightly for the duration of the Canopy Installation

18-month duration
10:00pm to 4:00am nightly

During these hours, the Express Deck bus will continue to pick up and drop off on the Arrivals Level, in the bus lane Zone 2

[Temeteron]

42 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

CLT Upper Roadway Closure (Departures Level), 27SEP – 12OCT
 
CLT Airport will begin the next portion of major construction of the Terminal Lobby Expansion (TLE) project: CLT Canopy Installation. This project is slated to begin at 10:00pm on September 27th, 2022 and continue through October 12th, 2022.  The UPPER LEVEL roadway/ Departures will be closed during this time period. The project is anticipated to cause several significant impacts to our roadways and curbside operations.

Important Notes:

Express Deck bus will pick up and drop off on the Arrivals Level, in the bus lane Zone 2 during this two-week period

The Smoking Area will relocate to the east end of the Departures Level

Following the two-week closure, the Departures Level will close nightly for the duration of the Canopy Installation

18-month duration
10:00pm to 4:00am nightly

During these hours, the Express Deck bus will continue to pick up and drop off on the Arrivals Level, in the bus lane Zone 2

18 months? Yikes

[Miesian Corners]

30 minutes ago, Temeteron said:

18 months? Yikes

14 days. 

[Temeteron]

18 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

14 days. 

Oh! So I misunderstood. Awesome! 

[CLT2014]

The 18 month part is how long a nightly closure of the Departure roadway from 10pm to 4am will last... Essentially impacting nobody based on CLTs flight schedules.

 

 

[kermit]

Charlotte does less well on this measure than I had thought it would.

 

[LKN704]

1 minute ago, kermit said:

Charlotte does less well on this measure than I had thought it would.

 

Something seems off on this study...

I've taken both the Blue Line from Logan to the Aquarium area multiple times, and it's at least a 25-30 minute trip. Not sure where they are getting 15 minutes from. The scheduled travel time on the shuttle bus from the Terminals to the Airport T station is 13 minutes alone. I've also done the Silver Line to South Station from Logan a couple times, and it was also a little over 20 minutes. 

I'm not sure how Toronto Pearson scored so well, either. It's a 25 minute ride on a premium airport train...not metro or light rail.

DCA to L'Enfant Plaza on the Yellow Line is only 11 minutes, and DCA to Metro Center on the Blue Line is only 20 minutes, so I am unsure how Logan ranks better than DCA. 

I'll give them Sydney. Travel time on the Airport Line was less than 10 minutes from the terminals to Sydney Central, although I recall it being somewhat expensive...IIRC there is an airport surcharge on top of the standard fare. 

3 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

CLT Upper Roadway Closure (Departures Level), 27SEP – 12OCT
 
CLT Airport will begin the next portion of major construction of the Terminal Lobby Expansion (TLE) project: CLT Canopy Installation. This project is slated to begin at 10:00pm on September 27th, 2022 and continue through October 12th, 2022.  The UPPER LEVEL roadway/ Departures will be closed during this time period. The project is anticipated to cause several significant impacts to our roadways and curbside operations.

Important Notes:

Express Deck bus will pick up and drop off on the Arrivals Level, in the bus lane Zone 2 during this two-week period

The Smoking Area will relocate to the east end of the Departures Level

Following the two-week closure, the Departures Level will close nightly for the duration of the Canopy Installation

18-month duration
10:00pm to 4:00am nightly

During these hours, the Express Deck bus will continue to pick up and drop off on the Arrivals Level, in the bus lane Zone 2

A mess, but worth it in the end. I always get picked up/dropped off on the departures level, even when I have to pick up a checked bag, as it is so much less congested.

A good way to avoid the congestion that family/friends started doing during peak times when the departure level is also congested, is to do drop off/pick up in the hourly garage as the first 15 minutes is free. 

[kermit]

2 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Something seems off on this study...

I'm not sure how Toronto Pearson scored so well, either. It's a 25 minute ride on a premium airport train...not metro or light rail.

I agree there are some mysterious placements on here, and Boston is visually closer to downtown than it really is. But I think they got Toronto correct. YTZ (Billy Bishop) is the closest on the chart, YYZ is further out at the 20km ring.

Sydney is a good lesson. 30(!) years ago it felt like it was a million miles from town and the nearest rail station. Some thoughtful transit additions have -greatly- improved accessibility.  Denver is another lesson, despite its distance,  it feels very accessible (to me) thanks to trains every 15 minutes.

Edited September 13, 2022 by kermit

[SydneyCarton]

Not the airport per se, but this will be impressive.

Carolinas Aviation Museum set to break ground on new $30M facility this month BY GORDON RAGO SEPTEMBER 13, 2022 11:34 AM

 

Read more at: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/development/article265719021.html#storylink=cpy

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/development/article265719021.htm

Edited September 13, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[Reverie39]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

Charlotte does less well on this measure than I had thought it would.

 

Really cool map. Gosh, Dulles is so far from DC. Never understood that, I always joke with people that it really should be called the "Northern Virginia Dulles Airport" instead of "Washington Dulles Airport" because it's just way too far from DC.

[LKN704]

3 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Really cool map. Gosh, Dulles is so far from DC. Never understood that, I always joke with people that it really should be called the "Northern Virginia Dulles Airport" instead of "Washington Dulles Airport" because it's just way too far from DC.

In the grand scheme of things, it actually isn't if you compare Dulles to other major international airports by driving time (in rush hour) + distance to the respective city's CBD. 

• -Dulles to Metro Center: 26.7 miles/45 mins
• -Incheon to Seoul Station: 36 miles/49 mins
• -HKG to Central: 24.2 miles/42 mins
• -Heathrow to Canary Wharf: 25.1 miles/anywhere from 1 hour to 2h15m...don't attempt in rush hour
• -CDG to La Defense: 18.4 miles/anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour+...another one not to attempt in rush hour
• -JFK to Midtown: 17.9 miles/don't even want to know how long in rush hour...could be 45 minutes, could be 90 minutes
• -LAX to Downtown: 18 miles/see JFK, could be 45 minutes, could be 90 mins
• -ORD to the Loop: 20.7 miles/see JFK and LAX, anywhere from 45 minutes up to an 90+ minutes
• -JNB to Sandton: 18.8 miles/45 minutes

Yes, I understand that some of these airports have nonstop, express rail systems to the city centre, but I would argue that travel time by road is equally as important, and high-yielding business traffic is likely not taking public transit, but taking cabs or private sedans. 

Dulles was really the first of the post-jet age airports built in the United States, and was specifically designed to handle widebody aircraft (it was custom built for the 747). Building it far from the city center would avoid all of the NIMBY-ism that started to develop in the 1960s around airports, and would give the airport plenty of space to expand as conditions warrant it. Even today, you only see a very small fraction of what could ultimately be built at Dulles. Based on traffic and economic conditions, there are plans to build more parallel runways, a new south terminal building, and a whopping two additional parallel satellite concourses. Even today, the area around Dulles is basically horse country and sparsely populated. 

It had to be built. The DC metro area was already quite large by the time the 1950s baby room rolled around, and even building the Beltway was a challenge as there was already huge development located around it...there was no way possible to build a major international airport the size of Dulles inside the Beltway, even before the area around Dulles was selected. Plus, NIMBYism was alive and well at National, and even if there were plans to expand it to the size of international airport, they would have failed. I recall reading that various airlines in the 1980s flew test-runs of their widebody aircraft into DCA (A300s/D10s), and there were massive amounts of controversy just with the test-runs. 

It's quite sad, though, and I wish this was talked about more, but the FAA essentially tore up an entire community that was largely African American that sat where the runways of Dulles are now, forced them to leave, and essentially gave them nothing in return. 

The DC market is quite like NYC imo, in that just as folks in NYC accept that you have to go to JFK (or EWR) for an intercontinental or transcontinental flight, folks in DC accept that you usually have to go to Dulles. I rarely hear anyone complain. Honestly, I hear more people complain that IAD is named for a pretty terrible person than its physical location, which is probably the most DC thing ever. 

I actually enjoy going out there...the main terminal building is an architectural wonder, there are nice Priority Pass lounges, the non-United concourses (A/B) are really nice, and it's always fun to see foreign carriers...when I flew from Dulles to Charlotte last week I rode the people mover with Egypt Air flight attendants. 

All that said, CLT is a true gem. Not only is it so close to Uptown, but there is a decent amount of room to expand the airport's footprint. That's quite rare amongst its peers airports that are so close to the CBD. 

[KJHburg]

from Twitter

Erik Spanberg
@CBJspanberg

NEW: Groundbreaking for $30M, 105,000-square-foot aviation museum (replacing the previous one that closed  in 2019) will be September 27. $27M has been raised/committed, including $10M from state government, $3M from the county, and $5M from city/airport. Opening: late 2023.

[videtur quam contuor]

An airport I know something about is Mirabel, outside Montréal. Envisioned as the next great international and world airport and supported by Canada government requirements that European flights land there prior to other destinations it quickly became an untenable option. Despite (because) vast amounts of land appropriated for the anticipated expansion which never happened, runways up to seven feet thick due to the weight of anticipated future planes and the harsh climate, mostly because it was 30+ miles from downtown and a frightful taxi cost, it lasted thirty years before the governments acceded to reality. The property made it perfect for what it is now, Bombardier and Airbus operations and assembly, cargo, some charter and general aviation.

The future arrived and it brought lighter, longer distance planes, resistance by airlines and passengers, and improvements in existing airports and technology to expand capacity within current property. I drove past Mirabel once and it is a vast and lonely experience from what was the original customer approach.

[JRCLT]

The 18 month part is how long a nightly closure of the Departure roadway from 10pm to 4am will last... Essentially impacting nobody based on CLTs flight schedules.
 
 

Worked nights on an airport project. You’re absolutely right. Majority if not all Passenger planes really stop departing around 10-11pm. Don’t start landing/departing until 5am-6am.

[LKN704]

52 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

from Twitter

Erik Spanberg
@CBJspanberg

NEW: Groundbreaking for $30M, 105,000-square-foot aviation museum (replacing the previous one that closed  in 2019) will be September 27. $27M has been raised/committed, including $10M from state government, $3M from the county, and $5M from city/airport. Opening: late 2023.

Glad it is reopening, though I am sad the plans look relatively spartan. I had hoped with increased funding, and more exposure (given that it is now a Smithsonian Affiliate), the museum would have ended up with a more grandiose, world-class facility. Regardless, I am glad plans to build a new building are moving forward. 

Confused about the AA S80 taxiing by...maybe the museum believes the plane will be coming back from the dead? It would be cool if they had the funds to acquire one...I am sure there are plenty rotting in the desert. 

37 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

An airport I know something about is Mirabel, outside Montréal. Envisioned as the next great international and world airport and supported by Canada government requirements that European flights land there prior to other destinations it quickly became an untenable option. Despite (because) vast amounts of land appropriated for the anticipated expansion which never happened, runways up to seven feet thick due to the weight of anticipated future planes and the harsh climate, mostly because it was 30+ miles from downtown and a frightful taxi cost, it lasted thirty years before the governments acceded to reality. The property made it perfect for what it is now, Bombardier and Airbus operations and assembly, cargo, some charter and general aviation.

The future arrived and it brought lighter, longer distance planes, resistance by airlines and passengers, and improvements in existing airports and technology to expand capacity within current property. I drove past Mirabel once and it is a vast and lonely experience from what was the original customer approach.

Mirabel was actually modeled off of Dulles, and employed the same concept where you used a mobile lounge to access your aircraft. 

IIRC, the distance alone isn't what necessarily killed Mirabel, but rather the changes that took place in Montreal and in Quebec. They had believed IIRC that Montreal was going to overtake Toronto in terms of population and economic importance, but that never happened due to the rise of the PQ and the exodus of people and business.

I flew through it a couple of times in the late 90s as a kid...I don't remember much other than the whole terminal reeked of cigarettes. There was a hotel on site that had nice indoor pool.

Off topic, but that whole project is a textbook case of boneheaded government planning. Dulles is successful because there is a permitter rule at DCA to protect it, and because by law DCA lacks passport control. The Canadian government did no such thing for Mirabel, and literally thought people would want to drive 35 miles outside the city to catch a flight. God knows what was in their poutine and maple syrup when they were planning the whole project...

Edited September 13, 2022 by LKN704

[kermit]

1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

The future arrived and it brought lighter, longer distance planes, resistance by airlines and passengers, and improvements in existing airports and technology to expand capacity within current property. I drove past Mirabel once and it is a vast and lonely experience from what was the original customer approach.

There was an excellent article on the internal debates between economists at Boeing and Airbus about the future of air travel back in the 1980s. Airbus's economists envisioned a world where business travelers would be increasingly concentrated in a handful of large cities (e.g. NY, London and Tokyo), with limited airport capacity. Boeing settled on a vision of diffusing business centers in smaller places (Charlotte!) that would likely have plenty of slots available at the airport, but limited traffic between them. These competing visions (in part) produced the 787 and the A380. The ironic part of the story was Airbus's vision was arguably more correct (at least in the UK), but fuel costs were not considered as part of the equation when forecasting the future of flight. [usual disclaimers apply, I read this a lifetime ago, I suspect the capital cost of the A380 was another big part of its demise.]

 

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

IIRC, the distance alone isn't what necessarily killed Mirabel, but rather the changes that took place in Montreal and in Quebec. They had believed IIRC that Montreal was going to overtake Toronto in terms of population and economic importance, but that never happened due to the rise of the PQ and the exodus of people and business.

The relative decline of Montreal was remarkably swift. It was on roughly equal footing to Toronto until the early 90s IIRC. Separatism got most of the blame for the massive corporate shift to Toronto, but I suspect the related language issues also played a role. I was young at the time, but I (believe) I remember some violence / terrorism (mild by today's standards IIRC) associated with the struggle for independence.  I am still stunned by the pessimism of the English newspapers in Montreal, it feels like every story is about Quebec and the Island are going off the rails due to QC politics. I have asked several francophone residents about this, they universally shrug and say its just sour grapes from the minority population and the French press is more balanced.

Honestly I think the lack of corporate overlords in Montreal was one of the things that produced its cultural jewel status (and the corporate growth of Toronto has contributed to its boringness, although I know lots of folks who say Toronto has always been boring).  

Unrelated. There was an article in the Guardian a couple of years ago that profiled a handful of former Paris residents who moved to Montreal because of the expense of Paris. The the tone of the story was that Montreal was too much of a cow-town for Parisians to be happy there.

Edited September 13, 2022 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

The decline of Montréal was predictable due to the St Lawrence Seaway. Instead of the endless CN/CP trains pulling into enormous yards at the Montréal docks the ships slip past the rapids through the locks and continue upstream to all the further locations of the interior of the continent. It is hard to imagine now how so much of the products going to and from central and western North America used the entrepôt of Montréal until 1960. Montréal is closer to Europe by water than any other US port due to its higher latitude. Alas, the port, still active, is not what it was. The upside is that the Vieux Port or Old Port has become a polished gem of history, architecture and a (the?) major tourist attraction of the region. Port facilities are now further downriver, except cruise liners.

Worthwhile to recall the control of the Catholic Church in Québec, and what a conservative force it was. Women did not have the vote until 1944 and public schools did not exist until 1960-64. Before then it was "confessional" schools, or religious based. Catholic and Protestant schools are still strong. Compulsory education was not until the 1920's.  Dragging the rural and urban working population into the 20th century was a full heave. The 1960's was a time of tremendous change in the province, mirroring, in their way, the fractious, violent  events elsewhere in the world.

I remember that Guardian article. "Franchement", can you believe the terrible cheese here? 

 

[Reverie39]

On 9/13/2022 at 4:59 PM, LKN704 said:

In the grand scheme of things, it actually isn't if you compare Dulles to other major international airports by driving time (in rush hour) + distance to the respective city's CBD. 

• -Dulles to Metro Center: 26.7 miles/45 mins
• -Incheon to Seoul Station: 36 miles/49 mins
• -HKG to Central: 24.2 miles/42 mins
• -Heathrow to Canary Wharf: 25.1 miles/anywhere from 1 hour to 2h15m...don't attempt in rush hour
• -CDG to La Defense: 18.4 miles/anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour+...another one not to attempt in rush hour
• -JFK to Midtown: 17.9 miles/don't even want to know how long in rush hour...could be 45 minutes, could be 90 minutes
• -LAX to Downtown: 18 miles/see JFK, could be 45 minutes, could be 90 mins
• -ORD to the Loop: 20.7 miles/see JFK and LAX, anywhere from 45 minutes up to an 90+ minutes
• -JNB to Sandton: 18.8 miles/45 minutes

Yes, I understand that some of these airports have nonstop, express rail systems to the city centre, but I would argue that travel time by road is equally as important, and high-yielding business traffic is likely not taking public transit, but taking cabs or private sedans. 

Dulles was really the first of the post-jet age airports built in the United States, and was specifically designed to handle widebody aircraft (it was custom built for the 747). Building it far from the city center would avoid all of the NIMBY-ism that started to develop in the 1960s around airports, and would give the airport plenty of space to expand as conditions warrant it. Even today, you only see a very small fraction of what could ultimately be built at Dulles. Based on traffic and economic conditions, there are plans to build more parallel runways, a new south terminal building, and a whopping two additional parallel satellite concourses. Even today, the area around Dulles is basically horse country and sparsely populated. 

It had to be built. The DC metro area was already quite large by the time the 1950s baby room rolled around, and even building the Beltway was a challenge as there was already huge development located around it...there was no way possible to build a major international airport the size of Dulles inside the Beltway, even before the area around Dulles was selected. Plus, NIMBYism was alive and well at National, and even if there were plans to expand it to the size of international airport, they would have failed. I recall reading that various airlines in the 1980s flew test-runs of their widebody aircraft into DCA (A300s/D10s), and there were massive amounts of controversy just with the test-runs. 

It's quite sad, though, and I wish this was talked about more, but the FAA essentially tore up an entire community that was largely African American that sat where the runways of Dulles are now, forced them to leave, and essentially gave them nothing in return. 

The DC market is quite like NYC imo, in that just as folks in NYC accept that you have to go to JFK (or EWR) for an intercontinental or transcontinental flight, folks in DC accept that you usually have to go to Dulles. I rarely hear anyone complain. Honestly, I hear more people complain that IAD is named for a pretty terrible person than its physical location, which is probably the most DC thing ever. 

I actually enjoy going out there...the main terminal building is an architectural wonder, there are nice Priority Pass lounges, the non-United concourses (A/B) are really nice, and it's always fun to see foreign carriers...when I flew from Dulles to Charlotte last week I rode the people mover with Egypt Air flight attendants. 

All that said, CLT is a true gem. Not only is it so close to Uptown, but there is a decent amount of room to expand the airport's footprint. That's quite rare amongst its peers airports that are so close to the CBD. 

Great informative response, thank you. Also I imagine the distance situation becomes just a little bit easier once that Silver Line extension is finally completed, connecting the Metro to Dulles. Probably a big help for a pretty walkable city that I'm guessing has a decent number of people without cars. Obviously that is not true for the rest of the metro area which is very sprawling and certainly requires a car anyway.

Also, side comment about the Carolinas Aviation Museum - I believe I heard it mentioned once that the new museum building will have a large wing dedicated mainly to Captain Sully's plane from the Hudson river crash, which the museum owns. Can someone confirm this? Very cool if so.