Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[LKN704]

5 hours ago, KJHburg said:

CLT one of the best malls in Charlotte.  There are stores here not elsewhere in the city. 

 

 

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. If a Spanx (which is a pantyhouse/underwear company designed to make you look slimmer) store arrived in SouthPark I would seriously be concerned about the state of the mall. 

CLT shopping is okay, but not exceptional. CLT simply lacks enough high-value, international traffic necessary to attract more higher-end and clothing retailers. 

[elrodvt]

Not just cheap but free.

It's to our great benefit as a society to get people out of cars. I remember my first visit to Singapore and thinking how terrible it was you had to pay so much to enter the city. Then I realized the city was in part great because the traffic was controlled. Note, I haven't been there in a long time and don't know if that's still in effect.

Free transit will in the long run cost much less than all these road projects. 

[LKN704]

As expected, the Paris flight's August end date was a filing error and was quickly changed to it's pre-pandemic end date of October. 

23 hours ago, elrodvt said:

I remember my first visit to Singapore and thinking how terrible it was you had to pay so much to enter the city. Then I realized the city was in part great because the traffic was controlled. Note, I haven't been there in a long time and don't know if that's still in effect.

The ERP scheme is still in effect. 

You'll probably never see congestion pricing in the U.S, but that's a topic for a different discussion. The NYC CBD tolling program was supposed to begin this year, has been pushed back until next year, but public and business opposition is simply too high.

[Reverie39]

On 12/17/2022 at 7:07 PM, PuppiesandKittens said:

This begs the question: why isn’t there a train station at the airport so people could take Amtrak all the way to the airport?

The NY-Charlotte-Atlanta Amtrak line sends Amtrak trains through airport grounds.  Adding a simple station at the airport would be easy, and it would make getting to the airport easy.

I think an airport station would be a very obvious choice for a future commuter rail line on existing Amtrak tracks. That would at least presumably have higher frequencies than Amtrak routes and may therefore prove useful. But I'm just waiting for any official word of discussion about such a line - seems like a clear Plan B with the Red Line stalled. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Reverie39

[LKN704]

There was actual fecal matter on the floor of the men's restroom near Baggage Claim E/International Arrivals today...the second time I have seen such disgusting filth at CLT.  Besides being unhygienic, it screams to me that the airport has multiple failures in their housekeeping system. Spots/streaks on the terrazzo? Ok fine, but a disgusting blunder like this simply shouldn't happen. I'm not one to complain, but I sent in feedback to the city via the airport's website. 

There are a myriad of airports in the Global South that have far and away better standards in terms of hygiene and cleanliness than CLT does. 

[xapostrophe]

10 hours ago, LKN704 said:

There was actual fecal matter on the floor of the men's restroom near Baggage Claim E/International Arrivals today...the second time I have seen such disgusting filth at CLT.  Besides being unhygienic, it screams to me that the airport has multiple failures in their housekeeping system. Spots/streaks on the terrazzo? Ok fine, but a disgusting blunder like this simply shouldn't happen. I'm not one to complain, but I sent in feedback to the city via the airport's website. 

There are a myriad of airports in the Global South that have far and away better standards in terms of hygiene and cleanliness than CLT does. 

Clt has always been gross.  I'm not convinced they actually clean the airport.  

[ajfunder]

Airline rant: Why does AA feel like it has to promote its credit card on every flight. Been flying Alaska and Delta a lot lately and I forgot how obnoxious AA is with their “special, in-flight only, limited-time-only etc” credit card pitch every flight.

Like they have been doing it every flight for a decade, it is neither limited or special and it makes AA feel like a lower class airline having an infomercial every flight.
 

 

[CLT2014]

^They do it because the sales method works. Only 14% of AA passengers have a AA credit card so you have a captive audience trapped in the flight and the message is "timely" as people think about how their next checked bag or flight could be free. Many flight attendants also like the opportunity to make commission and the cost of commission to a FA for every approved application is much cheaper than advertising on Bankrate, Nerdwallet, Credit Karma, et... and other methods for advertising. Credit cards are a big money maker for AA so it is worth it... And I don't think they care about class. Flying hasn't been glamorous for years. It's a bus in the sky.

Edited December 27, 2022 by CLT2014

[LKN704]

I don't have any pictures, but I am surprised as to how quickly the A North Phase II project is coming along. Pilings have been put into place over the footprint of the new pier, along with the corridor that will connect Phase I and Phase II together. A section of the northeastern glass sidewall of Phase I has been knocked down (with tarp covering the giant hole on the outside, and a wooden retaining wall placed inside the concourse) where the walkway will link the two phases together. 

Some signage alterations are underway in the terminal. The red lighted lettering that used to be underneath the giant compass signs has been removed and replaced with temporary signage…it previously said something like "Gates B1-B19". The other lettering that used to be present directing passengers to the landside terminal has also been removed.  Here's to hoping that they paint over this area quickly...it reminds me of a dead mall after all the anchors left. 

I'm hoping that they leave the compass signage intact, as it was something that I saw as unique to CLT. 

The Centurion Lounge was bursting at its seams with families aka parents not watching their children and letting their kids run around like the lounge was some kind of avant-garde Chuck E Cheese. I'm looking forward to the new guest policy starting on 1 Jan. 

[videtur quam contuor]

avant-garde Chuck-E-Cheese. Great line. Indelible image. I will use that.

[CLTdev18]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

The Centurion Lounge was bursting at its seams with families aka parents not watching their children and letting their kids run around like the lounge was some kind of avant-garde Chuck E Cheese. I'm looking forward to the new guest policy starting on 1 Jan. 

The change happens on Feb 1, for whatever reason.

[LKN704]

Bored working from home on a holiday (there are no holidays in my industry sadly), so I took the time to look again at the non-AA schedule for this Spring, as there are a couple of new services that start/resume in April, like Southwest to Houston, Spirit to Dallas/Nashville, etc. 

Southwest: ~9 daily flights

• Baltimore: 1x 738, 1x 7M8
• Nashville: 1x 7M8, 1x 73G
• Chicago: 2x 738, 1x 73G
• Denver: 1x 738 (only operates on Sunday)
• St. Louis: 1x 7M8
• Dallas: 1x 73G
• Houston: 1x 73G (only operates on Sunday)

Delta: 28 daily flights

• Atlanta: 6x 717
• Detroit: 4x 717
• Minneapolis: 3x 717
• Salt Lake City: 1x A321
• JFK: 5x CR9
• LGA: 6x CR9
• Boston: 3x E175

United: 16 daily flights

• Dulles: 1x A319, 2x E175
• Houston: 2x A319, 1x E175
• Newark: 1x 7M8, 1x E175, 3x 73G, 1x 739
• Chicago: 2x A319, 1x 73G
• Denver: 1x 738

JetBlue: ~2 daily flights

• Boston: 2x E190 (some days it drops down to 1x daily)

Spirit: 9 daily flights

• Ft. Lauderdale: 2x A320NX
• Las Vegas: 1x A320NX
• Orlando: 1x A321, 1x A320
• LGA: 1x A320
• Miami: 1x A319
• Dallas: 1x A320
• Nashville: 1x A320

Frontier: ~6 daily flights

• Denver: 1x A320NX
• Las Vegas: 1x A320NX
• Philadelphia: 1x A320NX
• Trenton: 4x weekly A320NX 
• Orlando: 1x A321, 1x A320NX

Lufthansa: 1 daily flight

• Munich: 1x A359

Air Canada: 1 daily flight

• Toronto: 1x CR9

Contour: 9 daily flights

• Beckley: 2x ERJ
• Lewisburg: 2x ERJ
• Shenandoah Valley: 1x ERJ
• Paducah: 2x ERJ
• Clarksburg: 1x ERJ
• Muscle Shoals: 1x ERJ

Sun Country: 2 weekly flights

• Minneapolis: 1x 738

Volaris: 2 weekly flights

• Guadalajara: 1x A320NX

=82 to 85ish daily departures

Couple of things:

-Delta is still down from their pre-pandemic schedule, although they dropped Cincinnati completely. JFK used to feature mainline aircraft, and I believe that Atlanta used to have more daily frequencies.

-The "United Next" fleet program has benefitted cities like Charlotte tremendously. Just a few years ago, Charlotte only had maybe two or three mainline flights a day, now roughly 88% of all United departures from Charlotte are on mainline aircraft.

-I had no idea that Spirit was so large in CLT, but obviously those flights to Miami/Dallas/Nashville/Las Vegas will likely quickly disappear if/when the JetBlue acquisition moves forward. 

-I had no idea how large the Contour Essential Air Service operation at CLT was. What a colossal waste of taxpayer resources…and I am a big-government loving democratic-socialist type of guy. Beckley and Lewisburg's airports are only 45 minutes apart from each other (all on highway, too). The fact that we are all subsiding flights to both of those cities is intellectually puzzling to me. Outside of Alaska, Hawaii, and isolate/remote communities in the West (more than say a 2.5/3 hour drive of a commercial airport), the EAS program needs to go away. In some EAS cities, we are all paying up to $1000 per passenger. 

[videtur quam contuor]

Not quite the same but phone fees also:

https://costcontrolassociates.com/blog/whats-line-item-phone-bill/

[LKN704]

AA is closing their Columbus (GA) station on April 3rd, which means Charlotte service will end. 

This isn't related to CLT, but I wanted to put this here because so many of us on this forum (and indeed the City of Charlotte) have a vested interest for AA to succeed financially, but damn, I cannot believe how much their international network has shrunk. 

Obviously, the reasons for their international pull-back are multifaceted, and I don't blame the current management team for making the decisions they have made in regard to their network. The blame cannot be placed on any single executive or decision or the pandemic, but rather a culmination of factors and poor decisions over the past 20 or so years. 

United, for example, simply has better hub locations that drive higher levels of premium international traffic and a better mix of fleet types. United at present has 8 different aircraft types at present equipped to fly transatlantic routes, AA only has 4. San Francisco is better than LA, Newark is better than Philly, etc.

They underinvested in their fleet/onboard product for years and drove away corporate traffic…for years they had lucrative banking contracts on their now-discontinued JFK-Zurich flight, until the poor product/maintenance on their 767s drove the clients away. The poor product offering on the 767s drove a great deal of business away from JFK, for that matter. IIRC business improved dramatically once JFK international operations went exclusively to the 777.

They struggle on flights to other airline alliance hubs overseas, and they often have a weak marketing presence abroad…for example, they can really only make Germany (a Star Alliance stronghold) flying work from CLT/DFW, while Delta is seemingly able to make it work from more hubs.

From what I have read, Amsterdam (SkyTeam stronghold) is the worst performing AA city in Europe, yet United successfully flies from Amsterdam to Chicago, Newark, Dulles, San Francisco, and Houston. AA announced that they are quitting Tel Aviv/Miami and cancelled their planned Tel Aviv/Dallas service, but United flies nonstop from Tel Aviv to Dulles, Newark, Chicago, and San Francisco. Again, United benefits from having hubs in larger, higher-yielding metro areas.

South Africa is a good example of this. Both United and Delta fly nonstop to both Cape Town and Jo'burg. Even if AA wanted to, they lack the proper aircraft and hub location to do so profitably. An AA flyer that wants to fly to South Africa has to fly to London and connect with British Airways, adding 12 hours or so in the process, and that's if they are fortunate to be able to fly to London nonstop from the USA on AA/BA. 

Here are what the international networks look like at the three global US carriers. I excluded seasonal-only service, and I included routes that airlines intend to operate/resume, but don't presently operate, like some Indian routes due to the lack of Russian overflight rights.

United, who smokes both Delta and AA out of the water:

Delta, who has a respectable transatlantic network:

AA's: 

Even their once large competitive advantage in South America is mostly gone, as United and Delta have grown in the region. Market conditions have caused AA to cut back or close some stations in the region completely. 

Obviously you cannot be something to everyone, and each airline has their niche. AA still has a number of strengths, including the most flights to London of any US carrier, arguably the most important international market in the world. Routes should be cut if they aren't making a profit, and no route should be flown for "vanity" purposes, like AA's pre-pandemic operation at LAX largely was. 

I hope that the airline attempts to expand their international network again once they grow their international fleet, and I hope that those plans include Charlotte somehow. 

[xapostrophe]

27 minutes ago, LKN704 said:

AA is closing their Columbus (GA) station on April 3rd, which means Charlotte service will end. 

This isn't related to CLT, but I wanted to put this here because so many of us on this forum (and indeed the City of Charlotte) have a vested interest for AA to succeed financially, but damn, I cannot believe how much their international network has shrunk. 

Obviously, the reasons for their international pull-back are multifaceted, and I don't blame the current management team for making the decisions they have made in regard to their network. The blame cannot be placed on any single executive or decision or the pandemic, but rather a culmination of factors and poor decisions over the past 20 or so years. 

United, for example, simply has better hub locations that drive higher levels of premium international traffic and a better mix of fleet types. United at present has 8 different aircraft types at present equipped to fly transatlantic routes, AA only has 4. San Francisco is better than LA, Newark is better than Philly, etc.

They underinvested in their fleet/onboard product for years and drove away corporate traffic…for years they had lucrative banking contracts on their now-discontinued JFK-Zurich flight, until the poor product/maintenance on their 767s drove the clients away. The poor product offering on the 767s drove a great deal of business away from JFK, for that matter. IIRC business improved dramatically once JFK international operations went exclusively to the 777.

They struggle on flights to other airline alliance hubs overseas, and they often have a weak marketing presence abroad…for example, they can really only make Germany (a Star Alliance stronghold) flying work from CLT/DFW, while Delta is seemingly able to make it work from more hubs.

From what I have read, Amsterdam (SkyTeam stronghold) is the worst performing AA city in Europe, yet United successfully flies from Amsterdam to Chicago, Newark, Dulles, San Francisco, and Houston. AA announced that they are quitting Tel Aviv/Miami and cancelled their planned Tel Aviv/Dallas service, but United flies nonstop from Tel Aviv to Dulles, Newark, Chicago, and San Francisco. Again, United benefits from having hubs in larger, higher-yielding metro areas.

South Africa is a good example of this. Both United and Delta fly nonstop to both Cape Town and Jo'burg. Even if AA wanted to, they lack the proper aircraft and hub location to do so profitably. An AA flyer that wants to fly to South Africa has to fly to London and connect with British Airways, adding 12 hours or so in the process, and that's if they are fortunate to be able to fly to London nonstop from the USA on AA/BA. 

Here are what the international networks look like at the three global US carriers. I excluded seasonal-only service, and I included routes that airlines intend to operate/resume, but don't presently operate, like some Indian routes due to the lack of Russian overflight rights.

United, who smokes both Delta and AA out of the water:

Delta, who has a respectable transatlantic network:

AA's: 

Even their once large competitive advantage in South America is mostly gone, as United and Delta have grown in the region. Market conditions have caused AA to cut back or close some stations in the region completely. 

Obviously you cannot be something to everyone, and each airline has their niche. AA still has a number of strengths, including the most flights to London of any US carrier, arguably the most important international market in the world. Routes should be cut if they aren't making a profit, and no route should be flown for "vanity" purposes, like AA's pre-pandemic operation at LAX largely was. 

I hope that the airline attempts to expand their international network again once they grow their international fleet, and I hope that those plans include Charlotte somehow. 

We won't.  Our management is intent on growing markets like "Knoxville".  They can't or won't compete anywhere. 

[rancenc]

Seems that hub airports are seeing a decline in actual flights but an increase in seats from 2019.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2022/12/19/honey-i-shrunk-the-hubs-this-christmas-big-airline-hubs-all-have-fewer-departures/?sh=3507fa242f57

 

[Temeteron]

4 hours ago, rancenc said:

Seems that hub airports are seeing a decline in actual flights but an increase in seats from 2019.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2022/12/19/honey-i-shrunk-the-hubs-this-christmas-big-airline-hubs-all-have-fewer-departures/?sh=3507fa242f57

 

One of the reasons is AA (for example) has less aircrafts now than before 

[LKN704]

6 hours ago, rancenc said:

Seems that hub airports are seeing a decline in actual flights but an increase in seats from 2019.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2022/12/19/honey-i-shrunk-the-hubs-this-christmas-big-airline-hubs-all-have-fewer-departures/?sh=3507fa242f57

As the article alluded to, this phenomena is essentially occurring at all US hub airports, as well as with Air Canada (to some extent) at their hubs.  Smaller regional jets (CRJ-200, ERJ-145) are out, and larger regional jets (ERJ-175 and CRJ-900) and mainline aircraft are in. 

A market like Charlotte/Charleston, which ten years ago used to see maybe seven daily flights operated by regional jets, and two flights operated by mainline aircraft, now sees five mainline aircraft (including the A321) and only one larger regional jet per day. Departures are down, but overall seat count is way up. 

Charlotte/Wilmington is another good example. A few years back, the route was mostly operated by regional jets, and had around maybe seven to eight departures daily. Now the route sees four mainline aircraft, and just one regional jet. 

AA is flying mainline aircraft on a number of routes from Charlotte that haven't seen mainline aircraft in years, like to Asheville, Knoxville, and Greenville. 

Other routes are now seeing A321s from Charlotte regularly, like to Albany, Memphis, or Cincinnati. 

As the article suggested, any route that cannot support larger regional jets and/or mainline aircraft is in danger of being cut. I would be shocked if in 5 years AA was still flying to Huntington (WV), Lynchburg (VA), and Florence (SC) from Charlotte. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by LKN704

[BarrenLucidity]

On 1/7/2023 at 6:24 PM, xapostrophe said:

We won't.  Our management is intent on growing markets like "Knoxville".  They can't or won't compete anywhere. 

AA debt load and employee costs prevent it from competing in many international markets.

[CLT2014]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:55 PM, LKN704 said:

South Africa is a good example of this. Both United and Delta fly nonstop to both Cape Town and Jo'burg. Even if AA wanted to, they lack the proper aircraft and hub location to do so profitably. An AA flyer that wants to fly to South Africa has to fly to London and connect with British Airways, adding 12 hours or so in the process, and that's if they are fortunate to be able to fly to London nonstop from the USA on AA/BA. 

Routes like South Africa are where AA might just pick / choose where it makes sense to offer a nonstop from North America. From certain city-pairings, a one stop via LHR is not dramatically worse than flying via EWR or ATL. Examples include LAX, SFO, LHR, SAN, PHX, SEA, MIA, DFW, IAH,  BOS, et... where the variances in total flight + connecting time range from 1 hour to 6 hours between UA, AA, and DL. For premium passengers, this routing through LHR may even be preferable as you are on a wide body aircraft with lie flat seating the entire way. Example: Boston - Johannesburg for UA and Delta involves your first leg being on a domestic narrow body with basic first class seats to get to EWR or ATL. AA/BA puts you on a 787 to LHR with lie flat seating pod connecting to the A380 with lie flat seating to Johannesburg. The flight variance is within 2 hours between AA, DL, and UA, but only AA offers lie flat seating the whole way, full meal service on both your flights, a premium experience, et. AA may find themselves the "preferred option" on enough routings that they've carved out their niche to South Africa via LHR.

I'm not sure how much Delta's Atlanta -> Johannesburg service are filled with passengers from secondary cities like Mobile, AL -> Atlanta -> Johannesburg... or if they are largely coming from major metros that AA can serve with a one-stop option via LHR. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by CLT2014

[Miesian Corners]

I would argue AA's lackluster international flying is directly tied to the fact it grounded all 767s, A330s, and 757s. You can't fly somewhere if you don't have the equipment to do it on. With the 787 debacle and an additional year delay on the A321XLR (the 757 replacement), it's severely limited in where it can go. 

[xapostrophe]

On 1/9/2023 at 12:40 PM, Miesian Corners said:

I would argue AA's lackluster international flying is directly tied to the fact it grounded all 767s, A330s, and 757s. You can't fly somewhere if you don't have the equipment to do it on. With the 787 debacle and an additional year delay on the A321XLR (the 757 replacement), it's severely limited in where it can go. 

Should have kept the 350 order. Or converted it to 330neo

[KJHburg]

The real Air Jordan parked in PBI in West Palm.  My friend who works at PBI saw this and says when it is a home game in CLT Mr Jordan flies up from his home in Palm Beach County. 

Photo from twitter

Air Jordan from KJ's friend  and notice the logo on the tail 

[Reverie39]

The view of the Charlotte skyline from Douglas is really cool. Not quite as close-up and grand as airports like Boston and San Diego, but those airports are so close to downtown that they forced height limits on skyscrapers, so major downside there.

[15895]

38 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

The view of the Charlotte skyline from Douglas is really cool. Not quite as close-up and grand as airports like Boston and San Diego, but those airports are so close to downtown that they forced height limits on skyscrapers, so major downside there.

Everywhere is different & has their beauty. I like early 2000’s Charlotte Skyline with the Black US Airways 757 in front of it. I miss those colors. 

Charlotte’s skyline silhouette is always nice on landing. Especially at night with all the colors. 

Off topic sorta but DCA makes the surrounding skyline a little short but Amazon has really been turning out buildings (the two under construction and the two glass buildings to the right of them are HQ2 Amazon) and the Helix building will go vertical soon to the left. 

 

JFK or Newark may have my favorite airport/skyline/Development views though. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD