Greenville Mall

[whitehourseview]

Quite frankly, Woodruff Road is the joke of the Greenville area. I haven't been to Greenridge and don't plan on it anytime soon. I have worked on that side of town and have spent a lunch hour driving 3 miles just to arrive at a lunch place.

I'm sure I'll feel the same way about the new Greenville Mall spot, as Oshman's and Knickerbocker's are the only stores in that location I have been to.

[tablrock]

Quite frankly, Woodruff Road is the joke of the Greenville area. I haven't been to Greenridge and don't plan on it anytime soon. I have worked on that side of town and have spent a lunch hour driving 3 miles just to arrive at a lunch place.

I'm sure I'll feel the same way about the new Greenville Mall spot, as Oshman's and Knickerbocker's are the only stores in that location I have been to.

i always thought whitehorse road was the joke of the greenville area

[mallguy]

The Greenville of 1995 can hardly be compared to the Greenville of 2006, eleven years later. In 1995 there was Greenville Mall and a lot of vacant land. In 2006, there's the Greenville Mall sight surrounded by PF Changs, Carrabas, Whole Foods, Barnes & Noble and all that is The Point and Greenridge. Hardly the same environment, so not really even able to be compared.

Does anyone here know what smaller stores will be located there? What restaurants? What hotel? (I've heard Sheraton). How can anyone be down on a development that very little has leaked out about. I'm betting on the past success and great developments this developer has done in other cities and will hold any criticism until I see a finished product.

Right- that's why G'ville Mall should have done well in '95, if it ever would; back then we had McAlister Square, which was starting its death spiral, and Haywood, both of which were mostly mid-market malls; the best department store in town was the new Dillard's at Haywood, and having high-end shopping took driving to Atlanta. Greenville Mall was the only upscale mall in the area and had some nice stores in it, so it was definitely a lot better than McAlister and was more upscale than Haywood. But it still didn't do well, even offering stores and quality merchandise that other malls didn't have. Now there's a lot more competition, especially among big-box tenants. GM bombed as a downscale/mid-market mall in the '80s and early '90s, flopped as an upscale mall, and now is going to be a shopping center with big-box anchors- there are plenty of those types of centers around Greenville already, and other centers didn't cost $500,000 an acre for the land plus development costs- means that the owners will have to charge pretty high rents to make the financials work, but why would Costco and Rooms to Go pay significantly higher rents than they would at other shopping centers?

[gs3]

Right- that's why G'ville Mall should have done well in '95, if it ever would; back then we had McAlister Square, which was starting its death spiral, and Haywood, both of which were mostly mid-market malls; the best department store in town was the new Dillard's at Haywood, and having high-end shopping took driving to Atlanta. Greenville Mall was the only upscale mall in the area and had some nice stores in it, so it was definitely a lot better than McAlister and was more upscale than Haywood. But it still didn't do well, even offering stores and quality merchandise that other malls didn't have. Now there's a lot more competition, especially among big-box tenants. GM bombed as a downscale/mid-market mall in the '80s and early '90s, flopped as an upscale mall, and now is going to be a shopping center with big-box anchors- there are plenty of those types of centers around Greenville already, and other centers didn't cost $500,000 an acre for the land plus development costs- means that the owners will have to charge pretty high rents to make the financials work, but why would Costco and Rooms to Go pay significantly higher rents than they would at other shopping centers?

The upscale stores went to Haywood.

But to compare ANYTHING in Greenville from 1995 to 2006 is off the mark, as the level of affluence, businesses and dollars that flow through here have changed in a drastic manner in 11 years. If you live in Greenville, you know what I'm talking about, if not, you really need to visit so you can see all the positives and the major progress.

The above post sounds like exactly one made by csedwards further back in this thread. Read back.

[btoy]

I stand corrected the Journal was right last week with their info.

Not totally, the Journal said that the Anchors would remain, but according to the Greenville News today, everything but the Regal 20 will be razed. Well, I guess you could say they were part right, the Greenville News did say the Sports Authority would be in the new development, but I assume in a new building.

[RestedTraveler]

Not totally, the Journal said that the Anchors would remain, but according to the Greenville News today, everything but the Regal 20 will be razed. Well, I guess you could say they were part right, the Greenville News did say the Sports Authority would be in the new development, but I assume in a new building.

If it's not already closed, then you can be certain the Sports Authority on Laurens will close after the new one opens.

[greenvilleguy]

Right- that's why G'ville Mall should have done well in '95, if it ever would; back then we had McAlister Square, which was starting its death spiral, and Haywood, both of which were mostly mid-market malls; the best department store in town was the new Dillard's at Haywood, and having high-end shopping took driving to Atlanta. Greenville Mall was the only upscale mall in the area and had some nice stores in it, so it was definitely a lot better than McAlister and was more upscale than Haywood. But it still didn't do well, even offering stores and quality merchandise that other malls didn't have. Now there's a lot more competition, especially among big-box tenants. GM bombed as a downscale/mid-market mall in the '80s and early '90s, flopped as an upscale mall, and now is going to be a shopping center with big-box anchors- there are plenty of those types of centers around Greenville already, and other centers didn't cost $500,000 an acre for the land plus development costs- means that the owners will have to charge pretty high rents to make the financials work, but why would Costco and Rooms to Go pay significantly higher rents than they would at other shopping centers?

Greenville Mall did not suffer as the result of being in a bad location. It suffered for other reasons. First, two of its three ancors closed company-wide (not just Greenville), and the other (Parisian) was made into a lower market store by its parent company(Proffitt's). You cannot close two anchors in ANY mall and change the only one that's left and expect success, especially when you have high-end tenants. Accente closed all of its national stores except the few in Texas and soon they closed also. Camelot Music filed for backruptcy and closed, as did Georgio. The EF Merril/Drexel Heritage store suffered from mismanagement and eventually lost franchise rights and closed. Secondly, the mall was mismanaged from the beginning. Even when they had the re-grand opening in 95, the mall was only 60% full, so that in my opinion is the fault of the leasing manager. Then when the anchors left, no other tenants would come in especially with the low occupancy rate that the mall always maintained.

Either way its failure was not a result of location. I don't know how anyone could say that isn't a valuable piece of land. It is beside two major highways (385 and 85) and Woodruff Road. And in my opinion is easier to get in and out of than Haywood. Just because land is misused or not used to its full potential, doesn't make it worthless and I'm gald the new owners understand that also...

[gs3]

Greenville Mall did not suffer as the result of being in a bad location. It suffered for other reasons. First, two of its three ancors closed company-wide (not just Greenville), and the other (Parisian) was made into a lower market store by its parent company(Proffitt's). You cannot close two anchors in ANY mall and change the only one that's left and expect success, especially when you have high-end tenants. Accente closed all of its national stores except the few in Texas and soon they closed also. Camelot Music filed for backruptcy and closed, as did Georgio. The EF Merril/Drexel Heritage store suffered from mismanagement and eventually lost franchise rights and closed. Secondly, the mall was mismanaged from the beginning. Even when they had the re-grand opening in 95, the mall was only 60% full, so that in my opinion is the fault of the leasing manager. Then when the anchors left, no other tenants would come in especially with the low occupancy rate that the mall always maintained.

Either way its failure was not a result of location. I don't know how anyone could say that isn't a valuable piece of land. It is beside two major highways (385 and 85) and Woodruff Road. And in my opinion is easier to get in and out of than Haywood. Just because land is misused or not used to its full potential, doesn't make it worthless and I'm gald the new owners understand that also...

Well said greenvilleguy.

[g-man430]

Let's say that they announce next week that Bass Pro Shops will also be an anchor at the new Greenville Mall site. Would that change anyone's opinion of the development?

It would change mine.

[mallguy]

It would change mine.

Same here. BPS, even though I would not shop there, would be a destination anchor that could attract a lot of business.

I stand by what I said in the post above about Greenville Mall. I shopped there almost daily for years, but not enough people did, even in '95 and before Parisian was downgraded. Even when the mall first re-opened it apparently didn't do well. Stores close all the time due to corporate bankruptcies and the like but are replaced by other A-grade stores in thriving malls; in Greenville Mall they weren't, as Haywood was more successful. Also, when Parisian was downgraded I called Saks and complained, and eventually got to talk to some higher-ups there; they said that Parisian wasn't doing well and that the store was switched to being a Proffitt's because they thought that might "stop the bleeding" (their words).

I read a study about shopping center success, and what matters most is critical mass; shopping centers that have a lot of stores generally do better than smaller ones, and smaller ones generally do OK only if they distinguish themselves from larger malls due to store selection; even though GM had great stores, it didn't have enough of them, and Haywood was only one more exit away on I-385. Having Costco and Rooms to Go isn't enough to succeed; there will have to be a lot of other destination-type retailers for the new shopping center to succeed. Just as people didn't shop at Greenville Mall's previous incarnation in part because they were too used to shopping at Haywood, perhaps people now are too used to shopping at Greenridge and Haywood to shop at Greenville Mall's next incarnation- especially if it has so-so stores and not enough critical mass to stand out.

[Greenville]

Well, let's reserve judgment until more tenants are revealed. At this point, it is like judging the quality of a novel after only reading the first few chapters. Let's give this a chance, because the property is a great location and is destined to succeed. Just remember, developers would not pay all of that money to purchase the property, tear down the existing structure, and build a new structure just to put in some low-mid level tenants. It might not be upscale like Phipps Plaza in Buckhead, but it will surely be a quality development. People will go there, and it will be successful for years to come. Watch and see.

[gs3]

Same here. BPS, even though I would not shop there, would be a destination anchor that could attract a lot of business.

I stand by what I said in the post above about Greenville Mall. I shopped there almost daily for years, but not enough people did, even in '95 and before Parisian was downgraded. Even when the mall first re-opened it apparently didn't do well. Stores close all the time due to corporate bankruptcies and the like but are replaced by other A-grade stores in thriving malls; in Greenville Mall they weren't, as Haywood was more successful. Also, when Parisian was downgraded I called Saks and complained, and eventually got to talk to some higher-ups there; they said that Parisian wasn't doing well and that the store was switched to being a Proffitt's because they thought that might "stop the bleeding" (their words).

I read a study about shopping center success, and what matters most is critical mass; shopping centers that have a lot of stores generally do better than smaller ones, and smaller ones generally do OK only if they distinguish themselves from larger malls due to store selection; even though GM had great stores, it didn't have enough of them, and Haywood was only one more exit away on I-385. Having Costco and Rooms to Go isn't enough to succeed; there will have to be a lot of other destination-type retailers for the new shopping center to succeed. Just as people didn't shop at Greenville Mall's previous incarnation in part because they were too used to shopping at Haywood, perhaps people now are too used to shopping at Greenridge and Haywood to shop at Greenville Mall's next incarnation- especially if it has so-so stores and not enough critical mass to stand out.

Mallguy/csedwards....whichever you're going by.....apparently you do not live in Greenville. All post about this center from your multiple names have been doom and gloom, so it's obvious you do not understand the area.

Moderators, isn't there something in the rules about mutiple names/accounts?

[mallguy]

Mallguy/csedwards....whichever you're going by.....apparently you do not live in Greenville. All post about this center from your multiple names have been doom and gloom, so it's obvious you do not understand the area.

Moderators, isn't there something in the rules about mutiple names/accounts?

Yes, there is a rule on that, which is why I requested that the old account be closed a while back.

I don't see a need for this forum to end up being a forum for trading insults. All of us in this forum are very knowledgeable about real estate, and it doesn't take living next to a property to be familiar with it- look at Steven Rocks, who is really a real estate guru, with a wealth of knowledge about malls all around the country.

FYI, I shopped at Greenville Mall about once a month from '78 through '95, nearly daily for a few years after '95, and have visited that mall about every two or three weeks since then, including last Saturday. I should get a Most Loyal Customer award from that place. That should provide some indication of where I live.

[goodbye]

Mallguy/csedwards....whichever you're going by.....apparently you do not live in Greenville. All post about this center from your multiple names have been doom and gloom, so it's obvious you do not understand the area.

Moderators, isn't there something in the rules about mutiple names/accounts?

I assure you, it is being dealt with, but the outcome is not in my hands. Individuals are welcome to contribute positive or negative discussion as long as the "argument" makes sense and doesn't become inflamatory toward anyone else. Hopefully most of us will take the negative comments and turn them into positive ones to push Greenville in the right direction.

[gs3]

I assure you, it is being dealt with, but the outcome is not in my hands. Individuals are welcome to contribute positive or negative discussion as long as the "argument" makes sense and doesn't become inflamatory toward anyone else. Hopefully most of us will take the negative comments and turn them into positive ones to push Greenville in the right direction.

Thanks Skyliner!

[mallguy]

I assure you, it is being dealt with, but the outcome is not in my hands. Individuals are welcome to contribute positive or negative discussion as long as the "argument" makes sense and doesn't become inflamatory toward anyone else. Hopefully most of us will take the negative comments and turn them into positive ones to push Greenville in the right direction.

Agreed completely as well. Thank you!

Now, back to Greenville Mall's future: looks like other junior anchors are eyeing the site; I'll keep us posted when I have definite news that is OK to distribute publicly. (My line of work is commercial real estate finance.)

[StevenRocks]

I don't see a need for this forum to end up being a forum for trading insults. All of us in this forum are very knowledgeable about real estate, and it doesn't take living next to a property to be familiar with it- look at Steven Rocks, who is really a real estate guru, with a wealth of knowledge about malls all around the country.

Thanks mallguy.

[perrykat]

If it's not already closed, then you can be certain the Sports Authority on Laurens will close after the new one opens.

According to the article in the Greenville News, whatever happens to the store on Woodruff won't affect the one on Laurens Rd.

[RestedTraveler]

According to the article in the Greenville News, whatever happens to the store on Woodruff won't affect the one on Laurens Rd.

That's what's being reported; however, in reality, there's just no way Greenville can support both stores, especially considering how close they are in proximity to one another.

[mallguy]

That's what's being reported; however, in reality, there's just no way Greenville can support both stores, especially considering how close they are in proximity to one another.

I agree 100%. I recall that when the Dillard's at Haywood was first announced, news reports were that McAlister Square and its Dillard's wouldn't be affected at all- and deadmalls.com shows what resulted. Same goes for the Greenville Mall Dillard's.

This is a good thing as perhaps the entire shopping center on Laurens where Sports Authority is can now be redeveloped into something even better.

[btoy]

That's what's being reported; however, in reality, there's just no way Greenville can support both stores, especially considering how close they are in proximity to one another.

They have supported both for a while now though.

[perrykat]

However, Petsmart has a store on Laurens Rd (right next to SA) and they have one at Greenridge, and both do extremely well. I'm still surprised that they kept the Laurens Rd one open.

Sports Authority on Laurens Rd does pretty good business, a lot better than Greenville Mall's Sports Authority (from what I've seen when I go to each store). I often wonder if the poor location/visibility from Woodruff has affected the Greenville Mall one. Every time I go in the GM one, I can't help but wonder how it stays open.

[mallguy]

However, Petsmart has a store on Laurens Rd (right next to SA) and they have one at Greenridge, and both do extremely well. I'm still surprised that they kept the Laurens Rd one open.

Sports Authority on Laurens Rd does pretty good business, a lot better than Greenville Mall's Sports Authority (from what I've seen when I go to each store). I often wonder if the poor location/visibility from Woodruff has affected the Greenville Mall one. Every time I go in the GM one, I can't help but wonder how it stays open.

I agree with you. Malls these days love having anchors like Dick's Sporting Goods and the like; GM just was ahead of its time in getting Oshman's, which is a good store, but must have slow sales. I think part of that is because it is in the back of a dead mall. I think the store will move to a more visible location in the redevelopment, especially as the store is now 11 years old and could use some TLC.

Fingers crossed that Parisian comes back- I would love that!

[btoy]

However, Petsmart has a store on Laurens Rd (right next to SA) and they have one at Greenridge, and both do extremely well. I'm still surprised that they kept the Laurens Rd one open.

Sports Authority on Laurens Rd does pretty good business, a lot better than Greenville Mall's Sports Authority (from what I've seen when I go to each store). I often wonder if the poor location/visibility from Woodruff has affected the Greenville Mall one. Every time I go in the GM one, I can't help but wonder how it stays open.

The two PETsMARTs have different things to offer the upstate as well. The Laurens Rd. is a much larger store with a State Line Tack, none of the other local PETsMARTs have a a tack shop. Also, the Woodruff Rd. store is a small store like the Greer store but the Woodruff Rd. store has a PetMotel something the other upstate PETsMARTs do not have.

[Greenville]

What is a State Line Tack/tack shop? I am not familiar with these terms.