Greenville Mall

[RestedTraveler]

Or even a panoramic....on a crystal clear day

OK...back to the Greenville Mall.

Does anybody feel that IKEA would even consider the idea of opening a store in Greenville, perhaps at the newly-redeveloped Greenville Mall site?

I'm not really wanting to drive over to Atlantic Station.

[goodbye]

They ought to. It is one of the most visible locations and on a major retail corridor.

[RestedTraveler]

Now there's something I'd like to see the Greenville Mall perhaps become ... a little mini Atlantic Station.

[Greenville]

Ikea would be great! I think they would do well in Greenville, and that would lend a lot of credibility to the Greenville Mall site. Are we too small of a metro for them to consider us, though?

Here are Ikea's locations in the US:

http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_US/ikny_splash.html

[Greenville]

On the topic of lifestyle centers, I want to share one I really like that I think could work at the Greenville Mall site. There is lifestyle center near the Pentagon just outside of DC, in Pentagon City. It is called Pentagon Row. Here is a link to the residential aspect (there is a photo gallery link on the right-hand side of the page):

http://www.postproperties.com/post+living....E70050D36A?Open

Here is a link to the Pentagon Row main site with info about the residential and dining offerings:

http://www.pentagonrow.com

I have been there on multiple occasions, and it really is a destination. The apartments look nice but not so nice that 20- and 30-somethings with decent careers can't afford to live there. The apartments rise over a courtyard area with quality retail and some unique dining opportunities. In the winter months there is an outdoor ice rink in the courtyard. There is a Bally's Fitness on the second floor of the apartment building. Not too far from there is the bigger retail area with Harris Teeter, World Market, etc.

I say all that to make the point that I believe we really have an opportunity to create another "destination" in Greenville. If we play our cards right, a lifestyle center on the Greenville Mall site will bring the people. We might not have a subway stop close by like Pentagon Row does, but we do have a lot to offer people who choose to live, shop, and eat at our lifestyle center. I hope the developers go for the gusto and do it right!

[RestedTraveler]

Ikea would be great! I think they would do well in Greenville, and that would lend a lot of credibility to the Greenville Mall site. Are we too small of a metro for them to consider us, though?

Here are Ikea's locations in the US:

http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_US/ikny_splash.html

We may very well be too small. Heck, they don't even have one in Charlotte yet. Nor do they have any locations in Florida, as densely populated as that state is in areas. *scratches head*

[Greenville]

I am assuming that places like Draper, UT, Frisco, TX, and Conshohocken, PA are suburbs located in large metro areas?

[StevenRocks]

I am assuming that places like Draper, UT, Frisco, TX, and Conshohocken, PA are suburbs located in large metro areas?

That's a correct assumption. Draper, UT is right outside Salt Lake City. Frisco, TX is near Dallas. Conshohocken, PA is close to Philadelphia.

[mallguy]

I walked through Greenville Mall and was surprised that there was a decent crowd there, although the only chains left seem to be Eddie Bauer, The Finish Line, Sports Authority/Oshman's and April Cornell. That place is now almost completely dead, but there seem to have been about the same number of people shopping there today as when the mall still had Parisian and JB White- odd!

[StevenRocks]

All those chains, except for April Cornell, are pretty popular.

[gs3]

I heard rumblings this morning of some pretty heavy hitters in the new development. From what I gather, this development will feel very urban and have multiple "new to Greenville" stores. I just wish the demo would start on Greenville Mall. I want to see this project get underway.

[goodbye]

Great to hear, gsupstate! Any idea who some of the "new players" may be? Any guesses?

[mallguy]

remember that G'ville Mall in '78 and '95 had "new to Greenville" stores both times-

[gs3]

Only that was Greenville "Mall". It won't be a mall, it's a development on a prime piece of land.

[goodbye]

There is far more potential now than back then. It is on the largest and most successful retail corridor in the region (maybe the state?), and construction just began today to widen the portion of Woodruff Road from Roper Mt. Rd./Verdae Blvd. up to Laurens Rd. This will allow the road to accomodate heavier traffic as a result of the Verdae developments.

[mallguy]

but in '78, the mall had a perfect location- intersection of I-85 and I-385, and Haywood wasn't built yet, but the mall still failed (though admittedly after Haywood was built)

and in '95 the mall was resurrected with lots of new-to-Greenville and upscale stores and spurred the Woodruff Road building boom but still failed.

I just don't foresee guaranteed success this time, either; figures that another shopping center will kill it again.

[goodbye]

Do you not understand the history behind this failure? Greenville Mall was not responsible for the closing of all of its large department stores. A mall without major anchors is like a child left out in the cold to fend for itself.

[gs3]

Right, the mall failed because the department stores failed. No department stores this time to fail. Look at the open air part with Old Navy, Comp USA, etc.....booming.....as that's only a few feet away, it's logical that the new development (which will not be a mall will boom). Let's see, every single thing immediately around this property is booming...Greenridge, Target, Home Depot, Carrabus, Flat Rock, Old Navy, The Point, Verdae, on and on. What should be understood, this isn't some patch or remodel like in the past, so you can't compare it to the past. The entire building is being level and a new development is being built from the ground up. Oh, I'm sure there will be people even after the new development opens and is booming, holding signs in front of the development saying "Greenville Mall used to be here and it died"........

[mallguy]

Sure, I understand Greenville Mall's failure; I grew up in G'ville, was there when the mall opened in '78 and shopped there often throughout the '80s and early '90s simply because I like malls even though there wasn't much there and then shopped there at least a few times a week after it re-opened in 1995. I loved that mall and thought it had great stores after 1995. I bought almost every piece of clothing for years at Parisian and other stores in that mall.

The first time it died, it did so because it was run down and didn't have the scope and quality of stores that Haywood or even McAlister Square had, even though its department stores seemed to do OK.

The second time it died, it did so partially because it still didn't have the scope and large selection of stores that Haywood did. The mall didn't do that well even from 1995 on, when it still had department stores; some of the in-line tenants got free rent and I don't recall many new national chains locating in the mall after about 1996 or 1997, indicating that its sales weren't that strong. When its department stores closed the mall clearly had no future, but even when the mall had Parisian and JB White, it didn't do so well.

Now Haywood has just remodeled and has been adding better-quality stores, so Greenville Mall or whatever it's going to be called probably can't successfully compete for typical mall-type stores, and with Greenridge and other big-box centers sprouting up around the mall, it'll face tough competition for big-box stores as well. The developers could try making it something like Birkdale Village, where people can go hang out in a downtown-like area, but Greenville already has a thriving destination downtown, so that might not work either.

Thus I just am not confident that the redevelopment will work, either. In business, I wouldn't want to enter a crowded market or be a #2. Haywood, Greenridge, downtown and Birkdale Village are the leading businesses in their respective categories and thus thrive; for G'ville Mall or whatever it's called to succeed this time, it'd need to find a niche and be a market leader in that niche. I don't see that happening. I would not re-do that mall as a retail center; I would try housing or a nice hotel or something.

[btoy]

OK, think about about the economis for a moment, they paid $37,000,000 for the site, plus the cost to tear it down, plus construction costs. Then tell me again, that residential on its own makes any sense at all? After those costs you would be looking at $600,000 per acre or more just for the dirt, that means to be profitable it needs to be high density, and I just don't see mid to high rise condos working their with out retail to help subsidize tha land cost. I mean, they aren't selling everything they make downtown, you think peopel are going to shell out big backs to live on Woodruff Rd? And apartment developers won't pay anything near that.

As for hotels, well, you could have a dozen hotels on that site the size it is, and if they do something like Dadeland or Birkdale or what ever it is, I could see a Hotel, but they are going to have to do more than that.

Their is a saying that when ever the market demands a new hotel, three are built. Well we have more than three Hotels coming up, so I don't think the market could bare another new hotel at this point. Though I could be wrong.

The Greenville Mall is a Retail site period. Whether or not the market can bare what it brings is to be questioned, but these people are not stupid, they do their research. I am not saying mistakes aren't made. And if it does fail, who cares, as long as its private dollars that are used.

Myself, I wish it the best, I think with the right tennant mix it will do well. I am hearing their will be alot of new to market companies, that is a good sign.

[mallguy]

They paid $37MM but Urban Retail Properties or whoever redeveloped it in '95 spent I think $60MM then for the acquisition and renovations. Parisian, JB White, Williams-Sonoma, etc. all did research in '95 but the investors and retailers all misjudged and wasted their money then. I hope that the center will succeed this time but I just am not counting on it to go gangbusters.

Plus if the current developers paid way more per acre than Crosland did for Greenridge's land and other developers paid for other comparable centers in Greenville then the G'ville Mall redevelopers will have to generate significantly higher cash flows from the property than Crosland and others do from their properties to make the new G'ville Mall development work. That seems like an additional challenge, on top of competition from other retail centers.

[StevenRocks]

Only that was Greenville "Mall". It won't be a mall, it's a development on a prime piece of land.

No matter how you slice it, it will still be a "mall."

[goodbye]

Or a mixed-use development. Remember they're razing the whole mall. No more Greenville Mall -- bye-bye.

[mallguy]

any news on this sad shopping center?

[mallwalker]

any news on this sad shopping center?

Well the new thing going on at the mall is that they have took up the white benches that were in the mall and have placed the metal chairs out of food court though out the mall in there place.