The State of Downtown Retail

[linkerjpatrick]

As mentioned before I registered the domain, shopdowntowngreenville.com on Friday. I haven't done anything with it yet but from a personal standpoint I would like to make money from it. As an owner of a company that does web development I have thought of using it as a selling point to potential clients in the downtown area either by adding downtown clients to the portal site or selling advertising to downtown retailers etc. Other ideas are to have a "blog" focusing on news about new and notable shops, etc. Any other ideas? Of course if someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse for the domain I might not refuse but I would like to try something myself first. As soon as someone mentioned the domain the other day I check it out and I when I saw it was available I took it because in addition to be a potential business idea for myself I wanted to protect it from being taken from a non-Greenvillian or "domain farm".

Also their may be a possibility my company itself may be establishing an office "downtown" in the near future. That's all I can say for now.

[gs3]

You can add my name to RT's in this regard. Above, in this thread, I posted what I feel about these downtown closures. As I said, if it were a only a couple shops closing, we would not feel as bad. The termination of several downtown favorites (small, but "iconic" attractions, in my mind) is extremely disturbing, not to mention justification for much inner anguish. To be honest, I have been so sick lately of all the negative changes in downtown Greenville that I am currently looking elsewhere for physical and emotional comfort. I am confident that all things will eventually settle down and positive strides will be made here, but in the meantime, I am feeling depressed as a citizen and longtime supporter of my beloved hometown, Greenville. My spirit is weakened but not defeated, and I would love nothing more than to once again proudly proclaim her name and beauty throughout the World.

Skyliner, your post saddens me. I for one, find downtown in flux. Negatives always get more press than positives. Why are ALL the positives not being focused on? Publix opening downtown......Staples opening downtown.......High Cotton opening.......the new retail coming to Riverplace (Talloni and Plaza Suite opening).........Liberty Taproom opening........second Port City Java.......the small retail that will be coming to McBee Station........the new artist row in Riverplace.......Carolina Chocolates........Brown Street Jazz Club......the new jazz club under Jersey Mikes......the remodel of rooms at one of our anchors (Hyatt).......Bounce moving to Riverplace.......Ivy Salon opening.......etc, etc, etc. We make the choice everyday to focus on either positive or negative, and that choice can help push Greenville forward or not.

[GvilleSC]

Skyliner, your post saddens me. I for one, find downtown in flux. Negatives always get more press than positives. Why are ALL the positives not being focused on? Publix opening downtown......Staples opening downtown.......High Cotton opening.......the new retail coming to Riverplace (Talloni and Plaza Suite opening).........Liberty Taproom opening........second Port City Java.......the small retail that will be coming to McBee Station........the new artist row in Riverplace.......Carolina Chocolates........Brown Street Jazz Club......the new jazz club under Jersey Mikes......the remodel of rooms at one of our anchors (Hyatt).......Bounce moving to Riverplace.......Ivy Salon opening.......etc, etc, etc. We make the choice everyday to focus on either positive or negative, and that choice can help push Greenville forward or not.

The West End is booming, no doubt. So if you take out the WE happenings, you're left with a lot less, which is the City Center district that is saddening people. HOPEFULLY we can add the Pinnacle to this soon! (or is that considered North End??)

[whitehourseview]

To be honest, I have been so sick lately of all the negative changes in downtown Greenville that I am currently looking elsewhere for physical and emotional comfort. I am confident that all things will eventually settle down and positive strides will be made here, but in the meantime, I am feeling depressed as a citizen and longtime supporter of my beloved hometown, Greenville. My spirit is weakened but not defeated, and I would love nothing more than to once again proudly proclaim her name and beauty throughout the World.

Whoa cowboy, I think you're taking the potential closing of a bubble tea joint a bit too seriously.

[goodbye]

Yes, I totally understand there are great positives to look at proudly. Here is my main discouragement. All of these positives you mentioned were set in place (announced) well before the sudden departure of many favorites from our unique list of charming shops. Greenville seemed to be moving up at an unstoppable pace. I have yet to hear word of any new shop coming to take the place of the ones we've lost, and quite frankly, I can understand why an outside business would apprehesively delay a decision to move into one of these vacant storefronts on Main. Yes, RiverPlace, the West End, and McBee Station are exciting additions to Greenville's roster, but I have a hard time jumping for joy with the negative progress taking place in the city's acclaimed downtown shopping district.

[linkerjpatrick]

Whoa cowboy, I think you're taking the potential closing of a bubble tea joint a bit too seriously.

My sentiments exactly. I think downtown is great and I want to support a great business climate but physical and emotional comfort? A weakened spirit?

[RestedTraveler]

Here's an analogy that I'm sure is one to which everyone can relate: ever take one of those elongated balloons and squeeze all of the air out of one end of it and into the other? I think that's what's happening here on North Main. All of the air has been squeezed into the West End...give it some time and a lot of effort on the part of city leaders and things will settle back to how they shoud be on North Main, I'm sure. I still think part of the solution will be at least one major destination draw (i.e. Borders, etc.).

I can certainly understand Skyliner's point of view on this...it disheartens me as well to see all of these places close at the rate at which they are...and I've chosen O-Cha as the one on which I will attempt to hold my ground as there's nothing I can do about the others that have already closed. Happily, Denton from www.greenvilledailyphoto.com is carrying the battle flag for O-Cha over on his site, too.

It's more than just Bubble Tea, folks - it's the principle of our very core that's at stake here. If you enjoy something, such as Greenville's quaint assortment of downtown businesses, then you've gotta fight in any way you know how (some have better ways than others to fight - this is mine) to keep it in tact.

Edited January 29, 2007 by RestedTraveler

[gs3]

It's more than just Bubble Tea, folks - it's the principle of our very core that's at stake here. If you enjoy something, such as Greenville's quaint assortment of downtown businesses, then you've gotta fight in any way you know how (some have better ways than others to fight - this is mine) to keep it in tact.

Well said. I couldn't agree more! That said, however, when you fight, you have to have a positive focus and focus on the goals....focus on winning. Many of the post in this thread have been "moaning" over loss....very few have even briefly mentioned the positives or been focused on winning. Greenville has the "It Can Be Done" attitude and from what I've seen, usually wins in the end......positive energy generates positive results. The title of this thread is "the state of downtown retail", so how can the "state" be determined without mentioning the openings that are going on? That's my take on it, for what it's worth.

[mallguy]

You can add my name to RT's in this regard. Above, in this thread, I posted what I feel about these downtown closures. As I said, if it were a only a couple shops closing, we would not feel as bad. The termination of several downtown favorites (small, but "iconic" attractions, in my mind) is extremely disturbing, not to mention justification for much inner anguish. To be honest, I have been so sick lately of all the negative changes in downtown Greenville that I am currently looking elsewhere for physical and emotional comfort. I am confident that all things will eventually settle down and positive strides will be made here, but in the meantime, I am feeling depressed as a citizen and longtime supporter of my beloved hometown, Greenville. My spirit is weakened but not defeated, and I would love nothing more than to once again proudly proclaim her name and beauty throughout the World.

I was pretty bummed out when Greenville Mall died (again) so I know how you feel; the good thing is that Greenville is small enough that each citizen can make a big impact on any community issue s/he feels strongly about, so if it's that discouraging, think of how this presents an opportunity for you to get involved (if you're not already) in helping reshape downtown.

City leaders obviously aren't doing enough to build downtown's retail base so why not run for city council or something?

[breed]

One thing to keep in mind... despite the recent spat of closings, there have been (or will be) more openings in the West End then there are closings on Main Street... so the Greenville downtown market, collectively, is still growing.

[RestedTraveler]

Well said. I couldn't agree more! That said, however, when you fight, you have to have a positive focus and focus on the goals....focus on winning. Many of the post in this thread have been "moaning" over loss....very few have even briefly mentioned the positives or been focused on winning. Greenville has the "It Can Be Done" attitude and from what I've seen, usually wins in the end......positive energy generates positive results. The title of this thread is "the state of downtown retail", so how can the "state" be determined without mentioning the openings that are going on? That's my take on it, for what it's worth.

One thing to keep in mind... despite the recent spat of closings, there have been (or will be) more openings in the West End then there are closings on Main Street... so the Greenville downtown market, collectively, is still growing.

This is exactly what I was referring to with my balloon analogy above. Businesses are opening in other parts of downtown. We've been wanting to see downtown expand and now we are with the new developments on East McBee and in the West End and along the Reedy River. With these new developments have come (and will continue to come) more pedestrian traffic, which willl, in turn, result in more business locating where the traffic is. Unfortunately, that appears to be siphoning some of the pedestrian traffic (and thus some of the businesses) away from North Main. In time, more retail choices and destination choices will attract its share of pedestrian traffic back to North Main, and things will settle back to what we've grown to expect in that part of downtown. I'm confident this is the case.

Edited January 29, 2007 by RestedTraveler

[linkerjpatrick]

I went to the Greater Greenville web site and did a restaurant search for downtown/main street and could count on 1 hand the number of restaurants that were around over 10-20 years ago. The only three that seem like long timers are Addy's, Charlie's Steak House and Never On Sunday. Interesting that they are all on coffee street. I for one miss the Red Barron (German Restaurant), The 858, The Real Carpenter Brothers, Krispy Kreme in the Westend (that was about 30 years ago). I think Soby's and Restaurant O may be run by the same people who owned the 858. Also if you want to get a taste of old Greenville both in terms of Food and people visit the Ham House. That's where a lot of the moving and shaking in Greenville is going on. I for one however and very surprised the Gene's is still in business after all these years. Gene's is like the Ham house wannabe but I have just about gotten sick the few times I have eaten there. (not by my chosing however but going along with others.

[whitehourseview]

I went to the Greater Greenville web site and did a restaurant search for downtown/main street and could count on 1 hand the number of restaurants that were around over 10-20 years ago. The only three that seem like long timers are Addy's, Charlie's Steak House and Never On Sunday. Interesting that they are all on coffee street. I for one miss the Red Barron (German Restaurant), The 858, The Real Carpenter Brothers, Krispy Kreme in the Westend (that was about 30 years ago). I think Soby's and Restaurant O may be run by the same people who owned the 858. Also if you want to get a taste of old Greenville both in terms of Food and people visit the Ham House. That's where a lot of the moving and shaking in Greenville is going on. I for one however and very surprised the Gene's is still in business after all these years. Gene's is like the Ham house wannabe but I have just about gotten sick the few times I have eaten there. (not by my chosing however but going along with others.

I remember fondly eating at the Red Baron a few times, good stuff. I think Cantinflas is in that spot now.

Tommy's Country Ham House is good food, blue collar to white collar eat there. I remember Gov. George W and Laura Bush sitting in the booth next to me one time there on a winter morning...

[Greenville]

The problem with Main Street downtown (North of the Peace Center) is that there is a lot of unused space. This is mostly centered around the Main and Washington corner with the old Woolworth's building. This is a HUGE corner that can be made into a huge development. If done properly, this alone will breathe new life into the area. Imagine a Borders, Walgreen's, Potbelly Deli, etc. there. It would totally transform what is currently UNUSABLE space into a huge pedestrian draw. It would not happen at the expense of the West End, either.

Every city has areas that catch on fire and other areas that are more difficult to sustain. This is normal. The area we're talking about here (Main between Beattie and the Peace Center) has carried downtown for 10-15 years. It has done a great job of it. And it continues to thrive, but it is only natural that another area (West End) has caught on. This is a good problem, as the market shifts and Greenville adjusts (i.e., grows) in a positive way.

Don't forget that our two newest highrises are in this area (Peacock and Pinnacle). They will do a lot for the area by filling in currently unoccupied areas. Oh yeah, and don't forget about the City Hall plaza site. Or Main at Washington. Or McBee Station. Get my drift?

[goodbye]

I'm sorry, but I do not view these shop closings as a "good problem" at all. I understand what everyone is saying, and I agree that it is great to witness downtown Greenville expanding outward, however the shift appears to be taking the North Main shopping district away from the relatively well-balanced destination it once was, toward a top-notch place to eat and do business - period. I am hopeful this will not happen, as there have been and still are many visitors coming to downtown Greenville for the whole experience. As others have suggested, a large retail magnet would probably help turn the retail tide in a positive way.

[Greenville]

I simply don't see these business closings as harmful to downtown. They were not huge retail anchors, or a corporate presence, or anything of significance. They might have had nice signs, or a long history of being downtown, or even be personal favorites for people. I understand that, as I personally really liked The Map Shop. Personally, I hate that it closed. But on a large scale, in terms of downtown's health, I do not see these closings as a problem. In other words, my own personal opinion does not speak for society (or downtown) as a whole.

We obviously want all businesses to succeed, but many of these businesses closing had very narrow offerings which appealed to very few (as evidenced by their failures). If a business does not meet the needs of many people, then is it really helping the retail scene downtown? Aside from making downtown look more occupied, and helping a building's owner pay the mortgage payments, is a business like this serving a need? And if it's all about caring for these private business owners, then why are no tears shed for a small locally-owned business that closes elsewhere in the metro? Are they not as important?

[GE Turbine Man]

Downtown retail is a tough business. I've been thinking about opening something downtown pretty much since I arrived in Greenville and fell in love with the downtown area. Right now, from my best figuring, the rent for space downtown, ground level, main street is significantly higher than lets say, a woodruff strip mall (which I haven't really looked at pricewise, so I can't really compare apples to apples, but anyway).

So what do you get for that extra money? Right now all you get is foot traffic in front of your door. So, in order to succeed downtown, vs. elsewhere, is you have to be able to take advantage of that pedestrian traffic. You have to have a business that can draw walkers in to browse, and hopefully by something, and the draw of these people has to be enough to make up for the higher rent, otherwise it just doesn't make sense to put a store downtown.

This is one of the reasons that I think the restaurants are doing so well downtown, and will continue be a draw for people. Its the perfect business model. People walk by, get hungry, go in, spend money, and don't need to tote anything back with them. Same for Bars, etc.

What could make it? (only Retail, restaurants, coffee shops etc obviously can be successful)

Jewelery Store? (really surprised there isn't one already that I can think of)

High end Furniture Store? (delivery)

Clothing obviously, but what kind?

Specialty Niche store that isn't anywhere else (MGS)

Apparently Cigar stores, but not sure why.

Wine store (bulky to carry home, other locations could draw people to them)

Thoughts?

[whitehourseview]

I believe there are already two jewelry stores in downtown.

[mallguy]

High end Furniture Store? (delivery)

Clothing obviously, but what kind?

Specialty Niche store that isn't anywhere else (MGS)

Apparently Cigar stores, but not sure why.

Wine store (bulky to carry home, other locations could draw people to them)

Thoughts?

I think you have some very good ideas and the things you list aren't necessarily commodities, so they could differentiate themselves from what's offered at Haywood and Greenridge. Best of luck if you open a business!

Edited January 29, 2007 by mallguy

[gs3]

Right now all you get is foot traffic in front of your door. So, in order to succeed downtown, vs. elsewhere, is you have to be able to take advantage of that pedestrian traffic. You have to have a business that can draw walkers in to browse, and hopefully by something, and the draw of these people has to be enough to make up for the higher rent, otherwise it just doesn't make sense to put a store downtown.

I agree with what you are saying about drawing in pedestrian traffic to buy. The unfortunate thing is that most U.S. consumers have become "brainwashed" to look for the absolute best deal.....therefore the rapid expansion of the TJ Maxx, Ross, Stein Mart, Costco's of the world. I say that, because any downtown in any city is really tough. Any single owner, gift type store that sells unique items is going to have a cost structure that makes it hard to compete with the big boxes of the world. This wasn't so much the issue in years past when all that big boxes sold was cheap crap, but now we have big box companies that have fashion sense and good taste. It's really hard to compete with a company that can sell good taste on the cheap.

I have a friend that had a business in DC in Georgetown immediately off M Street. Great area with great foot traffic. He sold contemporary home items (Jonathan Adler and the like). He just closed this past year and said he simply could not make enough money. He always had good traffic in the store, but his view is that the American consumer has become a bunch of cheapskates. His store had on street parking in the front and he's told me how a woman would drive up in a new S Class Mercedes, then come in his store and want to haggle over the price of item. American consumers are cheap....they want the most bang for the buck, and they want to take it out of the store owners pockets.

Unless you are well backed with dollars, retail is simply hard.

[mallguy]

Maybe the problem with N. Main retail isn't the supply of what's there, but the demand?

People shop where they live, generally. We need more people with money to burn living in or near downtown. The upscale condos built around downtown recently surely help at least a little, but overall the population of the city of Greenville hasn't increased much at all in decades, and the population of the Crescent Avenue neighborhoods hasn't increased much at all in ages either.

I think the underutilized land to the west and south of downtown needs to be transformed into high-end housing and office space. That would help downtown retailers.

(Will this happen? Of course not, but I'd sure like it to!)

[goodbye]

I agree with what you are saying about drawing in pedestrian traffic to buy. The unfortunate thing is that most U.S. consumers have become "brainwashed" to look for the absolute best deal.....therefore the rapid expansion of the TJ Maxx, Ross, Stein Mart, Costco's of the world. I say that, because any downtown in any city is really tough. Any single owner, gift type store that sells unique items is going to have a cost structure that makes it hard to compete with the big boxes of the world. This wasn't so much the issue in years past when all that big boxes sold was cheap crap, but now we have big box companies that have fashion sense and good taste. It's really hard to compete with a company that can sell good taste on the cheap.

I have a friend that had a business in DC in Georgetown immediately off M Street. Great area with great foot traffic. He sold contemporary home items (Jonathan Adler and the like). He just closed this past year and said he simply could not make enough money. He always had good traffic in the store, but his view is that the American consumer has become a bunch of cheapskates. His store had on street parking in the front and he's told me how a woman would drive up in a new S Class Mercedes, then come in his store and want to haggle over the price of item. American consumers are cheap....they want the most bang for the buck, and they want to take it out of the store owners pockets.

Unless you are well backed with dollars, retail is simply hard.

This is indeed the sad reality of our nation (and many others). Superstores like Wal-Mart (and many others) are able to become powerhouses by selling cheaply-made products imported from places where child labor and poverty are commonplace. We have bought into the idea that it is perfectly acceptable to sacrifice quality for affordability - resulting in the stifling of life for small shops unable to compete with pricing because of their higher quality products. Now I understand this is aided by other factors, and not all of our favorite small shops sell "only the best products made in the USA," but it is still a truth which negatively hits home for many great businesses here. I wonder if the current young adult generation has the ability to at least slow the trend. I seriously doubt it. So we can expect to continue seeing Wal-Marts and the like pop up like fast food joints all over our cities.

[goodbye]

...

We obviously want all businesses to succeed, but many of these businesses closing had very narrow offerings which appealed to very few (as evidenced by their failures). If a business does not meet the needs of many people, then is it really helping the retail scene downtown? Aside from making downtown look more occupied, and helping a building's owner pay the mortgage payments, is a business like this serving a need? And if it's all about caring for these private business owners, then why are no tears shed for a small locally-owned business that closes elsewhere in the metro? Are they not as important?

A music store does not appeal to a broad range of potential clients? A used bookstore does not appeal to a decent sized population of readers? A store which is a gateway to the World, selling products every traveler needs is not appealing to a broad group of business and leisure travelers in a city with more international businesses per capita than any other in the rest of the nation? These are mere examples of my main point. These are the types of shops we should have in downtown Greenville. In the end, the national retailers may have to bring them back, sad to say. I am wondering if one large department store on Main Street could sell these items under the same roof and remain strong through the slow winter months?

[Greenville]

A music store does not appeal to a broad range of potential clients? A used bookstore does not appeal to a decent sized population of readers? A store which is a gateway to the World, selling products every traveler needs is not appealing to a broad group of business and leisure travelers in a city with more international businesses per capita than any other in the rest of the nation? These are mere examples of my main point. These are the types of shops we should have in downtown Greenville. In the end, the national retailers may have to bring them back, sad to say. I am wondering if one large department store on Main Street could sell these items under the same roof and remain strong through the slow winter months?

I could see a downtown bookstore doing well if it sold new books, but I do not see a huge demand for used books. Whenever I have purchased used books, I go online and buy them. I think most people would rather go to Barnes & Noble, Books-a-Million, Borders, etc. and browse a larger selection of books that are new. Bentley's was a cute store and a feel-good concept, but honestly, how many people actively seek to go downtown to buy used books?

The Map Shop was a great store, and one I personally enjoyed. But again, how many people think, "Hey I am going on a trip and need a map...I think I'll go to the Map Shop"? Probably not too many. You can buy a map of just about any prominent city at Barnes & Noble (while you purchase the new book you found). And of the people visiting Greenville, how many wait until they get here to purchase a map? Do they even have a way to know about The Map Shop?

But to answer your question about these two stores: no, I do not think a small, used book seller and a map store appeal to a broad range of people. That's not to say that a store can't be successful selling to a narrow range of consumers, but to do that they need to sell high-end items and/or items with a big markup. Used books and maps fall into neither of those categories. And I do not think these stores would be very successful if you put them in the downtown area of most any other metro, either.

Earshot was a great concept, and I was shocked to see them close. I have to wonder if their demise had a lot to do with the up-front costs they had (purchasing the building, renovations, expensive furnishings, etc.). It was a really nice store, and they had to spend a lot to get it that way. Also, I wonder how many people knew it was there (or if they knew Earshot was there, did they know that it was a music store?). If you put that same Earshot (minus a lot of the bells and whistles, even) on Main Street - especially in the West End - it would probably do great business.

[goodbye]

I don't want to see businesses close up and move to the West End, personally. I am enjoying the new options there, but it is not at the level of North Main in pure urbanity, in my opinion.