Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[seththom]

21 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Top of the list would be Texas as their urban highways and interchanges are best in class but their rural roads and highways are good too.

Hey, recently migrated Texan chiming in here.

I disagree with this perspective completely.. Texas isn't anywhere near the level of infrastructure investment it needs to be even for cars in a state of 30 million plus people. While the freeways are okay, most of the pavement quality in the state absolutely sucks.

DFW alone has some of the worst highway design I've ever seen. Take for example the 121/35W/30/287 interchange right near downtown Fort Worth:

Coming in from DFW on 121 west and getting on 30 west (a seemingly logical travel choice to go west and continue west) toward downtown requires a merge of 3 lanes in extremely heavy traffic over the course of a half of a mile. It's absolutely impossible to do consistently.

Example 2 is the 287/820/20 interchange in SE Fort Worth:

This one, coming from east to west, fits 4 (from IH20 E) + 2 (from US287) + 2 (from IH820 S) for 8 lanes of total traffic into IH20  between the 287 branches. This interchange never flows smoothly, and even after the 1.7 Billion plus project to improve it, will likely only temporarily improve traffic flow, and then become subject to induced demand due to the increased capacity and then be bogged down by one Nissan Altima who is too busy looking at a cell phone to read a road sign.

Texas is the epitome of what happens when everyone has to drive. You can invest the cumulative 10-15 Billion (not to mention maintenance and resurfacing costs) over the past 20 years, but the end result is a transportation system that is extremely cost prohibitive for so many in the state. There's a reason DFW has the most expensive car insurance premiums in the country, and when you give people no better alternatives, what results is a system that is inaccessible to even the people who would prefer to drive, since you have so many people who are either too nervous, too incapacitated, or just plain too lazy to look at the people around them while they drive.

We're not even mentioning the 121/114/635 (DFW connector) mess near Grapevine which resulted in no tangible traffic improvements or the LBJ/635 TexPress lanes that they spent so much money on and now, since the project was structured as a P3, can't accurately maximize revenue and tolls at ~$6/mi during rush-hour, and thus no one uses them.

What's crazy is the cost of many of these big Texas-style interchanges would easily pay for (using $100M per mile) 15-20 miles of light rail a pop, which has substantially more capacity than any freeway system ever will.

Texas combines literally the worst aspects of Atlanta or NoVA traffic in an urban area, and all the concrete makes it inhospitable during the summers/winters.

[Crucial_Infra]

Gotta say I love the five level Texas stacks for the coolness factor but this poster is right, they are so expensive to build if it can be avoided. And in North Carolina, the NCDOT has shown they’re not willing to go that route anymore. The four-stack on I-77 south is probably the last we see in this state?  

[KJHburg]

I was strictly talking highways here.  Dallas already has the  2nd largest light rail system in the USA  with 93 miles and is building another line now the Silver Line.  I am talking about highways and highway quality. Of those states I mentioned what is everybodys list then?  We are speaking about highway quality and ability to move traffic.  

[Crucial_Infra]

My list would be similar to your list. I think VA and GA are just a touch ahead of NC in urban freeways but that’s just based on vibes driving in ATL and Nova. NC/GA/VA are way ahead of Tennessee for sure. 

[seththom]

36 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I was strictly talking highways here.  Dallas already has the  2nd largest light rail system in the USA  with 93 miles and is building another line now the Silver Line.

Dallas does have a long light rail system, but it has to, since the urban area is so large. DART has similar ridership per mile (~1100 pre-COVID) to Charlotte, San Jose, SLC, and Pittsburgh. It's a thoroughly inadequate system for the fourth largest urban area in the United States, and DFW as a whole still has such a high portion of solo drivers (72.3%) and low public transportation usage (3.1%, notably below the national average).

I'd almost put NC number one for highways. Maybe just because it's the state I'm the most comfortable with, but as far as maintenance, NC is pretty top notch with pavement quality. Texas, despite the good weather, frequently has some appalling pavement quality and has some bizarre, easily noticeable choke points in the highway infrastructure that take ages to resolve.

Haven't driven much outside of NC and SC recently, but would put SC at the bottom. It's getting better, but as far as Columbia goes, it's awful. Again there's a $2B investment to fix it (the 20, 26, 126 mess) but Pavement quality, traffic, and design all are lacking far behind NC, and Columbia would benefit substantially from the same money being thrown at improving the urban fabric. Greenville is substantially better than Columbia/Charleston, but the rural highways can't compete with NC.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

On 11/5/2023 at 5:55 PM, Crucial_Infra said:

My list would be similar to your list. I think VA and GA are just a touch ahead of NC in urban freeways but that’s just based on vibes driving in ATL and Nova. NC/GA/VA are way ahead of Tennessee for sure. 

GA is substantially ahead of NC. 85 in Gastonia is case in point. Georgia will also probably have 3 lanes each way on 85 to the SC border before SC finishes (LOL) and before NC even starts the widening in Gaston county. ATL will has reversible and toll lanes throughout most of the metro.   

[15895]

On 11/5/2023 at 6:38 PM, seththom said:

Dallas does have a long light rail system, but it has to, since the urban area is so large. DART has similar ridership per mile (~1100 pre-COVID) to Charlotte, San Jose, SLC, and Pittsburgh. It's a thoroughly inadequate system for the fourth largest urban area in the United States, and DFW as a whole still has such a high portion of solo drivers (72.3%) and low public transportation usage (3.1%, notably below the national average).

I'd almost put NC number one for highways. Maybe just because it's the state I'm the most comfortable with, but as far as maintenance, NC is pretty top notch with pavement quality. Texas, despite the good weather, frequently has some appalling pavement quality and has some bizarre, easily noticeable choke points in the highway infrastructure that take ages to resolve.

Haven't driven much outside of NC and SC recently, but would put SC at the bottom. It's getting better, but as far as Columbia goes, it's awful. Again there's a $2B investment to fix it (the 20, 26, 126 mess) but Pavement quality, traffic, and design all are lacking far behind NC, and Columbia would benefit substantially from the same money being thrown at improving the urban fabric. Greenville is substantially better than Columbia/Charleston, but the rural highways can't compete with NC.

Dallas definitely proves just because you build doesn’t mean it’s adequate. I lament LA going down a similar path but at least they’re a slight step above  with land use etc but still. Light rail was a mistake. 

DC, Boston, Philly, Chicago, Atlanta need more light rail, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, LA needs more heavy rail. 

I think NC has a good highway system. Though the Charlotte region’s highways always feels cramped. Especially when 85 was 2 lanes starting before Concord Mills & before 77 got the tolls, 485 still 2 lanes near Ballantyne. I think it’s suffice to say, the Triad & Triangle have roomy & efficient highway infrastructure. SC automatically turns to garbage with quality when you cross state lines. GA feels huge and overwhelming, VA is clean but their highways have exits that lead just exit to another highway so often. That’s annoying. 

But I’m biased towards NC since I’ve driven all over the state. 

[rancenc]

Major road widening major taking some incremental steps!

https://www.qcnews.com/news/u-s/north-carolina/mecklenburg-county/want-to-learn-about-the-300-million-road-widening-in-north-mecklenburg-county/

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, rancenc said:

Major road widening major taking some incremental steps!

https://www.qcnews.com/news/u-s/north-carolina/mecklenburg-county/want-to-learn-about-the-300-million-road-widening-in-north-mecklenburg-county/

So that links to a page with a number of road projects, including "Sam Furr Road Interchange Improvements" which I hadn't seen before. It's actually a pretty interesting interchange design/concept that I haven't seen before that creates kind of a secondary bridge specifically for exit ramp traffic.

edit: sorry TWO secondary bridges. I totally missed the southern bridge at first glance.

Edited November 9, 2023 by tozmervo

[KJHburg]

3 hours ago, tozmervo said:

So that links to a page with a number of road projects, including "Sam Furr Road Interchange Improvements" which I hadn't seen before. It's actually a pretty interesting interchange design/concept that I haven't seen before that creates kind of a secondary bridge specifically for exit ramp traffic.

edit: sorry TWO secondary bridges. I totally missed the southern bridge at first glance.

that is very interesting and I have not seen an interchange like that in all my travels.  If built you could come off 77 south and totally never really get on NC 73 to get to the Home Depot or Lowes for example.   But don't understand the southern bridge as it provides one off ramp from 77 N to US 21 but I guess you can avoid the intersection on NC 73.  But shouldnt there be a southbound ramp to 77 from this southern bridge too? 

Edited November 9, 2023 by KJHburg

[tozmervo]

13 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

that is very interesting and I have not seen an interchange like that in all my travels.  If built you could come off 77 south and totally never really get on NC 73 to get to the Home Depot or Lowes for example.   But don't understand the southern bridge as it provides one off ramp from 77 N to US 21 but I guess you can avoid the intersection on NC 73.  But shouldnt there be a southbound ramp to 77 from this southern bridge too? 

Not for nothing, this doesn't include any dedicated express exits or options for direct BRT access to Northcross park and ride (which appears prominently just outside the north bridge roundabout.) It seems like that north bridge could be modified with express lane ramps and provide pretty direct access for BRT. 

[southslider]

6 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Not for nothing, this doesn't include any dedicated express exits or options for direct BRT access to Northcross park and ride (which appears prominently just outside the north bridge roundabout.) It seems like that north bridge could be modified with express lane ramps and provide pretty direct access for BRT. 

Huntersville successfully pushed NCDOT to include two additional bridges either side of Exit 25, while largely ignoring any access to Northcross Park and Ride.   Having NCDOT build just a bit more for functional BRT is easily way more practical and realistic than getting NSRR to sell or share their corridor for Red Line. But such a pragmatic approach would require Town officials, several of them just newly elected, to actually have real conversations with NCDOT, rather than aspirational talk with NSRR.

[Take2]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:01 AM, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

GA is substantially ahead of NC. 85 in Gastonia is case in point. Georgia will also probably have 3 lanes each way on 85 to the SC border before SC finishes (LOL) and before NC even starts the widening in Gaston county. ATL will has reversible and toll lanes throughout most of the metro.   

GA is by no means ahead of NC. 85/40 is 3+ lanes from Durham to 74 in Gaston County. We'll over 150 miles of 6 or more lanes which is amazing. What town in NC doesn't have a belt around it these days? Don't get me started on Asheboro. 

GA is improving but outside of Atlanta it is horrid. And even in Atlanta, outside of the majors it's pretty bad....

[KJHburg]

6 hours ago, Take2 said:

GA is by no means ahead of NC. 85/40 is 3+ lanes from Durham to 74 in Gaston County. We'll over 150 miles of 6 or more lanes which is amazing. What town in NC doesn't have a belt around it these days? Don't get me started on Asheboro. 

GA is improving but outside of Atlanta it is horrid. And even in Atlanta, outside of the majors it's pretty bad....

Savannah the highways are pretty good and I was thinking things like how I-95 through GA is 6-8 lanes the whole way then you get to SC.  I-85 is being widening NE of Atlanta now up to Commerce.  It maybe a toss up with GA NC VA and FL but these 3 states are better than their surrounding peers.  

[Crucial_Infra]

On 10/19/2023 at 6:46 PM, Crucial_Infra said:

People inherently believe that if they are going the speed limit then they’re not the problem, but they are! Because it forces faster moving traffic to pass on the right (which is legal btw) but is also more dangerous bc it’s not how traffic is supposed to operate. Move over, people! 

Following up on this subject after seeing a police officer’s video on the subject 

 

[Crucial_Infra]

23 hours ago, Take2 said:

GA is by no means ahead of NC. 85/40 is 3+ lanes from Durham to 74 in Gaston County. We'll over 150 miles of 6 or more lanes which is amazing. What town in NC doesn't have a belt around it these days? Don't get me started on Asheboro. 

GA is improving but outside of Atlanta it is horrid. And even in Atlanta, outside of the majors it's pretty bad....

Sadly, GA crushes NC when it comes to longest 6+ lane freeways as I-75 through GA is 349 miles of 6 or more lanes. 

Also NC won’t have 150 miles of 6+ lane freeways on I-85/40 until widening is completed in Orange County on I-40. And widening on I-85 in Orange County between Durham and Hillsborough is still years away. 

[Take2]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:30 AM, KJHburg said:

Savannah the highways are pretty good and I was thinking things like how I-95 through GA is 6-8 lanes the whole way then you get to SC.  I-85 is being widening NE of Atlanta now up to Commerce.  It maybe a toss up with GA NC VA and FL but these 3 states are better than their surrounding peers.  

95 is definitely nice through GA and should be at least the same or wider through SC and NC as it is the prominent N-S interstate on the East coast. So maybe it's better to compare specific highways. I don't know but one thing we all unanimously agree on is that SC is an embarrassment concerning its Interstate maintenance. Lol

[DCMetroRaleigh]

On 11/13/2023 at 12:16 AM, Crucial_Infra said:

Sadly, GA crushes NC when it comes to longest 6+ lane freeways as I-75 through GA is 349 miles of 6 or more lanes. 

Also NC won’t have 150 miles of 6+ lane freeways on I-85/40 until widening is completed in Orange County on I-40. And widening on I-85 in Orange County between Durham and Hillsborough is still years away. 

I didn’t even know they are widening I-85 between Hillsborough and Durham 

[Nathan2]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:20 AM, southslider said:

Huntersville successfully pushed NCDOT to include two additional bridges either side of Exit 25, while largely ignoring any access to Northcross Park and Ride.   Having NCDOT build just a bit more for functional BRT is easily way more practical and realistic than getting NSRR to sell or share their corridor for Red Line. But such a pragmatic approach would require Town officials, several of them just newly elected, to actually have real conversations with NCDOT, rather than aspirational talk with NSRR.

CATS already has separate designs and plans for direct access to park and rides from the express lanes. Not sure if these plans have been published publicly yet. 

[Crucial_Infra]

2 hours ago, DCMetroRaleigh said:

I didn’t even know they are widening I-85 between Hillsborough and Durham 

They aren’t. It’s been on the books for years but I don’t think there’s a timetable anymore. It will happen eventually though. 

[southslider]

16 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

CATS already has separate designs and plans for direct access to park and rides from the express lanes. Not sure if these plans have been published publicly yet. 

The BRT study along 77 North completed years ago (see CATS website under Red Line) incorporates the very changes the NCDOT projects are doing and will soon be doing to respective exits 23 and 25. However, those projects are not building any of those BRT designs, which is a huge missed opportunity by Lake Norman decision-makers.  Area residents already hate that they were tricked into a private concession for toll lanes, and yet here is an opportunity for more public use and throughput on 77.

Edited November 17, 2023 by southslider

[tozmervo]

On 11/17/2023 at 3:19 AM, southslider said:

The BRT study along 77 North completed years ago (see CATS website under Red Line) incorporates the very changes the NCDOT projects are doing and will soon be doing to respective exits 23 and 25. However, those projects are not building any of those BRT designs, which is a huge missed opportunity by Lake Norman decision-makers.  Area residents already hate that they were tricked into a private concession for toll lanes, and yet here is an opportunity for more public use and throughput on 77.

It's a little hard to track down, but the concepts can be found here: 

 

[Nolan]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:30 AM, KJHburg said:

Savannah the highways are pretty good and I was thinking things like how I-95 through GA is 6-8 lanes the whole way then you get to SC.  I-85 is being widening NE of Atlanta now up to Commerce.  It maybe a toss up with GA NC VA and FL but these 3 states are better than their surrounding peers.  

95 in GA is nice BC it’s a reversible hurricane evacuation route. 95 is SC is just pitiful

[Crucial_Infra]

By gawd folks I never thought I’d see the day, but Greensboro finally has a few spots of RED. Of course it took the day before Thanksgiving for this to occur but its still cause for celebration in my book. 

[KJHburg]

Greensboro is my absolute favorite city to drive in in NC anytime of the year.   I always tell people they planned for lots of parkways and highways for massive growth which came more slowly than they thought.