Northwest Arkansas Sports and Entertainment Arena

[Aporkalypse]

These are the types of costs that make me wonder if the investors are ready to put in a larger arena. I admit I don't know what investors are involved here. But these prices are certainly not a drop in the bucket.

What's really impressive are the costs of the new major arenas - FedEx, the new Brooklyn Arena, the new Charlotte Arena, the early plans for a new Sacramento arena, etc. Those projects start at $250 million. That's a lot of change. Memphis spent that kind of money on FedEx when they still have public schools without air conditioning. Baltimore spent more than that on their new football stadium when they didn't have enough money to buy new books for the public school kids. Messed up priorities if you ask me.

One way to see it, though, is that you can't gripe about a privately financed arena. If I were spending that kind of money to build one I wouldn't care much what people thought about it as long as they went to the events. I still think it's important to have nice amenities to it and make it as nice as possible in appearance. It's worth a little extra to do it.

[KJW]

What's really impressive are the costs of the new major arenas - FedEx, the new Brooklyn Arena, the new Charlotte Arena, the early plans for a new Sacramento arena, etc. Those projects start at $250 million. That's a lot of change. Memphis spent that kind of money on FedEx when they still have public schools without air conditioning. Baltimore spent more than that on their new football stadium when they didn't have enough money to buy new books for the public school kids. Messed up priorities if you ask me.

Meanwhile we're building glittering jewels of schools here in even formerly rural districts (i.e. Centerton, Gravette, Bentonville, Rogers, Springdale) and our privately funded proposed arena may be either too small or suffer from cost overruns.

Interesting contrast.

[Aporkalypse]

Meanwhile we're building glittering jewels of schools here in even formerly rural districts (i.e. Centerton, Gravette, Bentonville, Rogers, Springdale) and our privately funded proposed arena may be either too small or suffer from cost overruns.

Interesting contrast.

Certainly is. Inner cities are a different animal altogether, though, than NWA. Almost none of the real powerbrokers in places like Memphis, Baltimore, etc have their kids in public schools. Certainly not at the ones where these issues exist. The NWA cities are a lot more like the suburbs of these cities than like the core cities.

[masons_dad1]

I looked up a couple of other "minor" arenas to get some cost comparisons:

Wichita's new 15,000 seat downtown arena will cost $185 million to build and is on target with its budget.

Tulsa's new 18,000 seat arena was supposed to cost $125 million to build but has reportedly met gross cost overruns.

Stockton (CA) is contructing an entertainment complex with a 10,000 seat arena, baseball park with 5000 seats, hotels and other assorted developments. The arena portion is slated to cost $45 million out of $130 million for the entire project.

You'd be surprised what Bentonville can do with a trailer and a lot of plywood and plaster. The Bentonville Sports and Entertainment Arena will most likely "look" like the most spectacular arena ever built... as long as you don't look too close. Most of the more rural towns in the country, like Bentonville, do the same thing with their old metal buildings. They use plywood and plaster to make them look like marvelous multi-storied wonders when the people walking in the spectacular entrance are completely unaware they're really walking into an ugly rusted out trailer with a drooping roof. It all looks great from the the front and the inside at least.

[itk]

^I don't know how much money the developers could cut by doing what you are referring to, since arenas are different animals in that they have certain structural and construction requirements to build. Steel is steel for example, and can't really be replaced, and of course is not cheap.

What's really impressive are the costs of the new major arenas - FedEx, the new Brooklyn Arena, the new Charlotte Arena, the early plans for a new Sacramento arena, etc. Those projects start at $250 million. That's a lot of change. Memphis spent that kind of money on FedEx when they still have public schools without air conditioning. Baltimore spent more than that on their new football stadium when they didn't have enough money to buy new books for the public school kids. Messed up priorities if you ask me.

Without knowing anything about those two examples, I bet the justification for those arenas in lieu of deteriorating educational conditions was economic benefits, right? The arenas were justified as investments, with which, over time, would pay off and thus be benificial in theory to those cities.

[Aporkalypse]

^I don't know how much money the developers could cut by doing what you are referring to, since arenas are different animals in that they have certain structural and construction requirements to build. Steel is steel for example, and can't really be replaced, and of course is not cheap.

Without knowing anything about those two examples, I bet the justification for those arenas in lieu of deteriorating educational conditions was economic benefits, right? The arenas were justified as investments, with which, over time, would pay off and thus be benificial in theory to those cities.

Probably so. Again, I wasn't necessarily arguing against it as much as I was concerned about ignoring major infrastructure problems to fund this sort of project.

They are investments but they can also obviously be bad investments. Just look at the Pyramid. Alltel has been a very good investment for Pulaski Co, though. It got into the black very quickly and has been a much bigger draw than you would think it could be for an arena in a city its size. It's generally been ranked in the #20-25 range in the nation in terms of arena revenue.

[theman]

Once you build an arena for various reasons it is very difficult to expand. To make it expandable in the future the up-front expense during construction of the arena would be very high as well as structures would have to be designed to carry substantially more weight.

I looked up a couple of other "minor" arenas to get some cost comparisons:

Wichita's new 15,000 seat downtown arena will cost $185 million to build and is on target with its budget.

Tulsa's new 18,000 seat arena was supposed to cost $125 million to build but has reportedly met gross cost overruns.

Stockton (CA) is contructing an entertainment complex with a 10,000 seat arena, baseball park with 5000 seats, hotels and other assorted developments. The arena portion is slated to cost $45 million out of $130 million for the entire project.

Arena's can be designed to be expanded. Qwest Center Omaha just finished an expansion of 1500 seats to their arena.

And as everyone has been saying, the cost of building arenas have gone up substantially in the past decade. Louisville is going to build an arena downtown for the college basketball team and its going to cost right at $400 million. That's more than Kansas City is using to build the new Sprint Center to lure an NHL or NBA team. I think it is costing between $250 and $300 million.

I wouldn't count on a new 9000 seat arena for $30-$35 million.

[KJW]

Fascinating.

Jagtar, Harminder and Komal Dhaliwal are named as three of the other investors in this project in this particular article. A few miles down the road from the potential arena in Highfill is the big convenience store built by the man of Indian descent...just another reminder of the growing, influential Asian presence in NWA.

[Mith242]

Fascinating.

Jagtar, Harminder and Komal Dhaliwal are named as three of the other investors in this project in this particular article. A few miles down the road from the potential arena in Highfill is the big convenience store built by the man of Indian descent...just another reminder of the growing, influential Asian presence in NWA.

That is interesting. I admit I hadn't heard anything about the investors during all of this.

[Aporkalypse]

That is interesting. I admit I hadn't heard anything about the investors during all of this.

Aside from Talley they've been very close to the cuff. I wonder if the Indian investors are local or not. A lot of hotel investors in the region are Indian, though that may be less true in NWA.

I think we all suspected the TIF was coming. I usually don't like TIFs and the one in Lowell along I-540 in an area where development was guaranteed to occur was retarded, just giving tax money away for no reason. Same with the Bass Pro development in NLR. However, for infrastructure improvements to make an arena possible I think it's reasonable. Talley's statements are deceptive, though. He acts as if they're donating the money for the infrastructure improvement. No, Chris, it's coming from tax money that would've gone to schools. You could consider it an investment in the community whose returns might ultimately benefit the schools but call a spade a spade. He said it wouldn't hurt the taxpayer and that's a bit misleading.

[itk]

^And that's probably a matter for a debate. Although I don't have a strong opinion one way or another, local officials can and have made claims for supporting a major private investment by stating that it would benefit the city in the long run. That's what I was implying in my earlier post. Isn't that part of the justification for the new Springdale Ball Park (and for that matter the Bass Pro development in NLR) -- that it will spur development and thus increase tax dollars?

Now whether or not this argument, in theory or practice, has merit, I'm not really sure as I haven't delved into it (mostly because it involves law). But can cities justify subsidizing a private development with public dollars on the basis of long-term returns, i.e., an investment? Like any investment, there's risk/reward.

I think similar parallels can be made to transportation-- should the public (i.e., taxpayer) pay for a wider road, newer road, etc., on the basis of economic development, hopes, or promises?

[mcheiss]

Also in this project, a 6 Floor 1,000 space Parking Garage will be built.

I'm glad to see more parking garages up here, it's going to be a trend were going to have to get used to.

[KJW]

Also in this project, a 6 Floor 1,000 space Parking Garage will be built.

I'm glad to see more parking garages up here, it's going to be a trend were going to have to get used to.

Matt, looks like they're planning this arena to build an upper deck if more seating is needed.

Don't know what to make of that...

[mcheiss]

Matt, looks like they're planning this arena to build an upper deck if more seating is needed.

Don't know what to make of that...

Say what?

I didn't see that. I wonder how many more seats it would allow.

[KJW]

Say what?

I didn't see that. I wonder how many more seats it would allow.

Very last paragraph in today's WNBA article:

Carroll said the main construction focus will be on the arena, the six-level, 1, 000-space parking garage and major streets to the building. The other structures will be built to suit once the anchor businesses are in place. The arena will also be built to accommodate an upper deck above the luxury boxes when the need for more seating arises.

[mcheiss]

That's good.

I'm glad there thinking of this problem. Adding more seats will help attract bigger shows.

[Mith242]

Yeah noce to see that they'll build it to make it easier to expand it at some future date.

[KJW]

Yeah noce to see that they'll build it to make it easier to expand it at some future date.

Fascinating...look at this article posted this afternoon on Springfield, MO's new arena...more money, less seats, but also will be built to accommodate seating expansion in the future.

[Aporkalypse]

Fascinating...look at this article posted this afternoon on Springfield, MO's new arena...more money, less seats, but also will be built to accommodate seating expansion in the future.

$67 million just for the arena at 11,000 sounds more reasonable. You have to wonder why they would pay $7 million extra to add the option of expanding by just 1500. Just build the 12,500 seat arena now instead.

Again, this arena group makes me a bit curious. The 6-story parking deck on the UA campus cost $30 million to build. Granted they will recoup some of their funds by charging for parking but still that's a big investment on top of the arena. It seems like there's plenty of land out there for parking lots.

[Mith242]

$67 million just for the arena at 11,000 sounds more reasonable. You have to wonder why they would pay $7 million extra to add the option of expanding by just 1500. Just build the 12,500 seat arena now instead.

Again, this arena group makes me a bit curious. The 6-story parking deck on the UA campus cost $30 million to build. Granted they will recoup some of their funds by charging for parking but still that's a big investment on top of the arena. It seems like there's plenty of land out there for parking lots.

Technically the parking deck on campus is 9 stories. But it does depend which side you're on. Sorry not trying to nitpick you.

[mcheiss]

^

Harmon Garage is 9 Floors.

Ah, I see Mith picked up on it to.

[Mith242]

^

Harmon Garage is 9 Floors.

Ah, I see Mith picked up on it to.

Beat you to it. But yeah it is built on the side of a hill so the entrance on one side is several levels up than the others.

[Aporkalypse]

Technically the parking deck on campus is 9 stories. But it does depend which side you're on. Sorry not trying to nitpick you.

That's what happens when you try to build a college campus on a damn hillside.

[Mith242]

That's what happens when you try to build a college campus on a damn hillside.

I like our hillsides, makes things interesting.

[KJW]

It's official...the Bentonville city council unanimously approved establishment of the district for the arena. Next up...a resolution to the city council.

Gang, I think this interest-from-the-WNBA thing is for real if this has happened. Reason: Mayor Coberly is a lifetime Bentonville-ite who's running for mayor again. Even though I'm sure her opposition isn't that strong, I don't see how she's going to make a fool of herself in front of her community or her council by chasing a rainbow. She's maintained all along that there's interest from the WNBA, and the fact that she got this through (including taking members of the council on the WNBA trip with her, including councilwoman Mary Baggett whom I'd think would speak out in an instant if there wasn't anything doing on this) tells me something's really up.

(Mith, I don't blame you for not getting your hopes up on this until it actually happens. I won't either. But, again, now I do believe the WNBA's interest is genuine and not just a matter of courtesy, or of one-sided wishful thinking by the Bentonville people. This thing sounds like it sailed through the meeting.)