Northwest Arkansas Sports and Entertainment Arena

[mcheiss]

Okay, just to give an update on record.

The ECHL (a AA Minor Ice Hockey League), has already stated that it will either bring a current team or make an expansion team for the arena within the next 2 years.

The NBADL (NBA's Development League), is in talks with the investors about bringing a team to the area. The Tulsa 66ers, and the Little Rock (Arkansas) Rim Rockers are the only NBADL teams in the general area.

The WNBA is also in talks with investors about bringing a team to the area. This would be the smallest market for the NBA to place a team in. The nearest teams are in San Antonio, Hoston, Indianapolis, and Chicago.

I wonder if the investors are considering anything else for the arena. I don't know if Minor league Lacrose, Arena football League 2, or a FIFA Developmental League is coming next or not at all.

[Mith242]

I'm still hesitant thinking about the WNBA team, I don't think the chances are too great for it to happen. I wonder about a NBADL team. Do they occur in smaller markets like ours?

[Aporkalypse]

Has anybody heard anything new about the arenas' design and cost lately? It's been very quiet on that front.

I actually think AF2 would have shot in NWA but I wouldn't add all the minor league sports at once. I would feel out how hockey and hopefully minor league baseball do first.

[Mith242]

Has anybody heard anything new about the arenas' design and cost lately? It's been very quiet on that front.

I actually think AF2 would have shot in NWA but I wouldn't add all the minor league sports at once. I would feel out how hockey and hopefully minor league baseball do first.

No I haven't really heard much about it lately either. Anyone else? How about a time frame on the construction and such?

[KJW]

Okay, just to give an update on record.

The WNBA is also in talks with investors about bringing a team to the area. This would be the smallest market for the NBA to place a team in. The nearest teams are in San Antonio, Hoston, Indianapolis, and Chicago.

Wow...hadn't considered that. That's a pretty huge gap in the middle of the United States (in an area which is prime high school and college girl's/women's basketball territory).

[mcheiss]

Has anybody heard anything new about the arenas' design and cost lately? It's been very quiet on that front.

We may find out about it later this month, when the investor group presents itself to the Bentonville City Council for making an improvement district in the area. I personally think 8000-9000 seats is a bit to small. They should be going for something like 15,000 to attract larger concerts and shows.

[Aporkalypse]

We may find out about it later this month, when the investor group presents itself to the Bentonville City Council for making an improvement district in the area. I personally think 8000-9000 seats is a bit to small. They should be going for something like 15,000 to attract larger concerts and shows.

I'm with you. The Ford Center in OKC is 15,000 and gets decent shows. I'm worried that they can't build much of a facility for the $35-40 million they are proposing. I think 9000 is adequate for the minor league sports being discussed.

[Mith242]

I'm with you. The Ford Center in OKC is 15,000 and gets decent shows. I'm worried that they can't build much of a facility for the $35-40 million they are proposing. I think 9000 is adequate for the minor league sports being discussed.

Yeah I would imagine that more seating would be good, but I wasn't sure about if they really set to put in that kind of investment. We have had a lot of growth and I think sometimes we just have to do some things more slowly than what everyone might want. I suppose for some people the potential reward is worth all the risks of doing something really big. But in a lot of ways we are an untested market in a lot of aspects.

[KJW]

But in a lot of ways we are an untested market in a lot of aspects.

Yep.

The "X" in XNA stands for "experimental".

[Aporkalypse]

Yeah I would imagine that more seating would be good, but I wasn't sure about if they really set to put in that kind of investment. We have had a lot of growth and I think sometimes we just have to do some things more slowly than what everyone might want. I suppose for some people the potential reward is worth all the risks of doing something really big. But in a lot of ways we are an untested market in a lot of aspects.

The problem is, this arena will be there at least 25 years. There won't be another arena off of the UA campus built for a very long time, so this arena should be done right.

Yep.

The "X" in XNA stands for "experimental".

[Mith242]

The problem is, this arena will be there at least 25 years. There won't be another arena off of the UA campus built for a very long time, so this arena should be done right.

True, I don't know if there's easy way to make it so that it could easily be expanded in the future. But I can imagine investors hesitance in building a 15,000 seat arena.

[KJW]

In today's paper:

http://www.nwarktimes.com/brog/News/38915/

City West will be home to a 9, 000-seat sports and entertainment arena; a 16-theater movie complex; a 32-lane bowling alley; a movie and sound studio; hotels; and office, retail and residential spaces. The site plans were created by Cory Roberts with Morrison-Shipley Engineers in Bentonville.

Chris Talley, one of 13 investors in the Arkansas Sports and Entertainment Park LLC, said the entire project, totaling nearly $ 50 million, should be completed by 2010. The arena is expected to be completed no later than 2009.

[KJW]

In the same article above, an interesting little snippet immediately below the quote I pulled:

Richard Davis, vice president for economic development for the Bentonville / Bella Vista Chamber of Commerce, has put together a PowerPoint presentation for Stern and the other league officials.

[Aporkalypse]

$50 million seems like a really low pricetag for that kind of development. I thought it would be difficult to build just the arena for that.

[slyder1]

$50 million seems like a really low pricetag for that kind of development. I thought it would be difficult to build just the arena for that.

Thats what I was thinking. 50 mil to build everything seems to be abit cheap. The arena should cost somewhere around 30 million if they want it to be state-of-the-art and attract more concerts. I don't know...........if they build everything for that much I wouldn't get my hopes up about a really nice arena.

[Aporkalypse]

Thats what I was thinking. 50 mil to build everything seems to be abit cheap. The arena should cost somewhere around 30 million if they want it to be state-of-the-art and attract more concerts. I don't know...........if they build everything for that much I wouldn't get my hopes up about a really nice arena.

$30 mil won't buy you jack these days. Even a 6000 seat minor league baseball stadium, which is open and much cheaper to build, will cost you around $35 mil. The price of construction materials has just gone through the roof. Alltel Arena was built ten years prior for $85 million and though it's 18,000ish, materials were much cheaper then. The cost of building an arena has doubled in the last decade. Now I think you're looking at at least $50 mil for a 9000 seat arena that's state of the art. If they go really cheap with it - more of a tractor pull type of facility it could be done for that price. I just worry about huge roadblocks coming up when the bids are coming in or when cost overruns occur amidst construction. I don't want the project to fall apart once construction has started and then leave the city or county with a mess to clean up (a la the Pyramid in Memphis).

[KJW]

I don't want the project to fall apart once construction has started and then leave the city or county with a mess to clean up (a la the Pyramid in Memphis).

Man...I remember in the 80s when the Pyramid was talked about as a facility par excellence...then next thing I hear the FedEx arena's being built.

Aporkalypse, what do you think will happen on this? (It appears from this article that dirt may be moving as early as October.) Think it will be abandoned? Scaled down? Or perhaps that it's just going to be "Overrun city", especially if all the big ideas proposed for this project come to pass?

(Slightly off-topic edit. Last night I went to take in (briefly) the Columbia, MO Hickman HS (Sam Walton's alma mater?) / Bentonville football game. 2nd time for me to visit the stadium and the 1st time since the tornado. I'd never seen the jumbotron in action (is that the first one in Arkansas for a high school stadium?) but I was amazed at:

- The lit "Ghirardelli Chocolate" signs behind either end zone. (Alongside other corporate entities);

- The game program which under the heading "The Bentonville Athletic Department would like to thank the following for their support" had a list including The Wal-Mart Foundation, Cintas, Shell Lubricants, General Mills, Exxon/Mobil, Wyeth Consumer and Disney (alongside a few businesses like "Bob Morey's auto body" like you normally see sponsoring such programs).

Shouldn't have been surprised but this area still amazes me.)

[Mith242]

Yeah I expect some new much higher numbers to come out at some point. Just as with so many other construction projects that suddenly have big cost overruns (Fayetteville sewer plant). Part of Springdale's money was also going to road and utility improvements also. I doubt that's been considered with this facility yet. So there goes even more money.

[mcheiss]

In today's paper:

http://www.nwarktimes.com/brog/News/38915/

Man, a 16 Screen Movie Theatre, 32 Lane Bowling Alley, Movie & Sound Studio, etc.

These are all great additions that Bentonville needs, no questions asked. I'm still curious about the price and size of the arena as well. How much are they wanting to pay for just the arena? 38-39 Million, which is pathetic. I also think that 9,000 seats is thinking too small. Why can't we shoot for something like Alltel Arena which is 18,000 seats? We would be able to attract larger concerts and the revenue would show.

[slyder1]

Man, a 16 Screen Movie Theatre, 32 Lane Bowling Alley, Movie & Sound Studio, etc.

These are all great additions that Bentonville needs, no questions asked. I'm still curious about the price and size of the arena as well. How much are they wanting to pay for just the arena? 38-39 Million, which is pathetic. I also think that 9,000 seats is thinking too small. Why can't we shoot for something like Alltel Arena which is 18,000 seats? We would be able to attract larger concerts and the revenue would show.

There wont be another arena that size (18,000+) in NWA if ever. The UofA already has that and if they were smart when they built it they would have planned ahead and built it to hold awesome concerts. BTW are there ever concerts in that arena?

[mcheiss]

There wont be another arena that size (18,000+) in NWA if ever. The UofA already has that and if they were smart when they built it they would have planned ahead and built it to hold awesome concerts. BTW are there ever concerts in that arena?

Yeah all the time. The shareholders meeting brings in 3 or 4 a year, but there's also a few big names that come in throughout the year.

You're right that if the 9,000 seat arena is built than an 18,000 one won't ever be built there.

[Mith242]

They allow things during the Wal-mart stockholders meetings but outside of that they rarely allow anything. The athletic director is very picky on what he allows to use their facilities. I think that's why there could be a 18,000 arena at some point. Probably won't happen anytime soon, but I could see it somewhere down the road. While it would be nice to have something like that now I'm just not sure if those investors are ready to shell out quite that much money for something that large.

[mcheiss]

They allow things during the Wal-mart stockholders meetings but outside of that they rarely allow anything. The athletic director is very picky on what he allows to use their facilities. I think that's why there could be a 18,000 arena at some point. Probably won't happen anytime soon, but I could see it somewhere down the road. While it would be nice to have something like that now I'm just not sure if those investors are ready to shell out quite that much money for something that large.

May'be they can leave the arena in a condition to allow expansion on it, so later down the road if they want to attract bigger names, they'll be able to with a larger arena.

[Aporkalypse]

KJW, I don't know much about the finances of the people involved. I think once we see concrete plans and they start getting bid and filing permits we'll have a better handle on things. Arenas tend to lose money for the first several years before getting into the black and subsequently profits grow each year. Therefore it may take a decade or more before they see a decent return of any kind on the arena though the rest of the development may offset that some if it is built.

The reason I mentioned the Pyramid is that it started as a privately financed project and cost overruns and construction issues including sinking land left it abandoned as the financiers went bankrupt. After a couple of years the city intervened and passed a tax to turn into a sports arena for the city. It was always a terrible concert venue because of its odd layout (I mean, LOOK at it) and seating was terrible for the same reason. NBA teams won't move into anything but modern state of the art arenas these days and the Pyramid was grossly inadequate, requiring FedEx to be built. Last I heard the Pyramid might be converted to some sort of complex more like it was originally designed for and would include a Bass Pro, but who knows?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Slyder, it wasn't poor planning that dictated why Bud Walton was built the way it was. It was designed to be a state of the art basketball-only arena. By designing it as such the seats, all 20,000 of them, are as close to the floor as they can be on this type of arena. The acoustics are intentionally terrible (making it poor for concerts) to make the noise level louder at basketball games. They did not want it to become a drab multipurpose facility but rather to make it as imposing a basketball-only arena as you would find in the country. I think it was nicely done. The other added benefit was that despite the beautiful design of the building it was much cheaper to build than a multipurpose facility would be.

I like Alltel Arena and I love the American Airlines Center here in Dallas but they can never have the atmosphere BWA can because of its unique construction. South Carolina recently essentially just copied the arena design to built theirs, though it's a bit smaller. When new arenas are built for major colleges, they always take a trip to Fayetteville to look at Bud Walton.

_------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mcheiss, I agree. A lot of big tours won't glance at a smaller venue less than 10,000. Bands like the Stones certainly wouldn't. It wasn't uncommon for a while for bands like the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Foo Fighters to play Barton Coliseum (8500ish in capacity) when Alltel was booked. Part of the reason Alltel got rid of the hockey team was because the dates they took up were cutting into the concert business and since then Barton hasn't gotten the acts they used to. I think the arena size would be fine for ECHL, the circus, entertainment events like the Ice Capades, Wiggles, etc. The Ford Center in OKC is 15,000 and that sounds reasonable.

Once you build an arena for various reasons it is very difficult to expand. To make it expandable in the future the up-front expense during construction of the arena would be very high as well as structures would have to be designed to carry substantially more weight.

I looked up a couple of other "minor" arenas to get some cost comparisons:

Wichita's new 15,000 seat downtown arena will cost $185 million to build and is on target with its budget.

Tulsa's new 18,000 seat arena was supposed to cost $125 million to build but has reportedly met gross cost overruns.

Stockton (CA) is contructing an entertainment complex with a 10,000 seat arena, baseball park with 5000 seats, hotels and other assorted developments. The arena portion is slated to cost $45 million out of $130 million for the entire project.

[Mith242]

I looked up a couple of other "minor" arenas to get some cost comparisons:

Wichita's new 15,000 seat downtown arena will cost $185 million to build and is on target with its budget.

Tulsa's new 18,000 seat arena was supposed to cost $125 million to build but has reportedly met gross cost overruns.

Stockton (CA) is contructing an entertainment complex with a 10,000 seat arena, baseball park with 5000 seats, hotels and other assorted developments. The arena portion is slated to cost $45 million out of $130 million for the entire project.

These are the types of costs that make me wonder if the investors are ready to put in a larger arena. I admit I don't know what investors are involved here. But these prices are certainly not a drop in the bucket.