210 Trade | EpiCentre

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Downtown Fort Worth on the other hand has a very vibrant retail scene in the Sundance Square area.  https://www.dfwi.org/     Downtown Fort Worth despite is size smaller than Houston and Dallas is very vibrant.  

Downtown Fort Worth is successful as a retail and activity center largely because of the Texas Oil bust in the early 1980s. Ft Worth's downtown office space was nearly entirely abandoned and much of it was converted to residential. The emptiness of downtown also allowed retail rents to be cut dramatically which complemented the rise of residential. In one sense, downtown Ft Worth's success was a product of its near total failure. (which sorta explains why I think a massive loss of retail tenants in uptown may be good for uptown in the long run).

[KJHburg]

1 minute ago, kermit said:

Downtown Fort Worth is successful as a retail and activity center largely because of the Texas Oil bust in the early 1980s. Ft Worth's downtown office space was nearly entirely abandoned and much of it was converted to residential. The emptiness of downtown also allowed retail rents to be cut dramatically which complemented the rise of residential. In one sense, downtown Ft Worth's success was a product of its near total failure. (which sorta explains why I think a massive loss of retail tenants in uptown may be good for uptown in the long run).

that may be true but now there is a good amount of office space too not as much as uptown Charlotte  according to JLL it has 9.8 M sq ft about half of uptown Charlotte with a higher vacancy at 18% vs upper single digits in uptown Charlotte for now.     Anyway this might be the best time to reposition Epicenter into more retail less bars.   For example the Dallas Cowboys team store for Ft Worth is downtown at Sundance Square.  

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Downtown Fort Worth is successful as a retail and activity center largely because of the Texas Oil bust in the early 1980s. Ft Worth's downtown office space was nearly entirely abandoned and much of it was converted to residential. The emptiness of downtown also allowed retail rents to be cut dramatically which complemented the rise of residential. In one sense, downtown Ft Worth's success was a product of its near total failure. (which sorta explains why I think a massive loss of retail tenants in uptown may be good for uptown in the long run).

Most of the buildings got bought up by billionaire Ed Bass who had the money, civic investment / care for the city, and vision to fully re-develop all of downtown Forth Worth into a historic mixed use district, protecting many of the most historic buildings. While downtown Forth Worth "looks" like a regular city, outside of the sidewalks maintained by the city, it is basically a giant open air shopping mall owned and masterfully planned by one private company. Even the Sundance Square Plaza is privately owned "public space" with operating hours / private police. 

Its like Simon Mall owning all of Uptown Charlotte and crafting it how they see fit. Instead in Charlotte, we have numerous property owners that all view themselves as competitors, rather than collaborators for making a better downtown.  They also aren't necessarily as "civic minded" like Ed Bass.

Edited October 7, 2020 by CLT2014

[Robbie Charlotte]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

downtown Atlanta has very little retail same in downtown Dallas and Houston all cities have been to recently.  Downtown Fort Worth on the other hand has a very vibrant retail scene in the Sundance Square area.  https://www.dfwi.org/     Downtown Fort Worth despite is size smaller than Houston and Dallas is very vibrant.  

Might be off-base here, but I bristle at the idea of using Atlanta, Houston, or even Dallas as models for what uptown Charlotte should aspire to

[KJHburg]

Charlotte Agenda article about the Epicenter

https://www.charlotteagenda.com/234901/can-the-epicentre-survive-the-pandemic/

[Matthew.Brendan]

Charlotte needs to stop trying to transform Uptown into a shopping/retail/nightlife destination, that has *clearly* shifted to South End and other immediate outlying areas. Uptown is a office park, no shame in that. Sure there will always be bars, museums, restaurants, and hotels in Uptown. Epicentre played a crucial role at a transitional time for Uptown but now the incredible growth in population has played out with the development surrounding the Blue Line and the utter transformation of South End over the last 15 years. The goal should be to make access as easy and seamless between South End and Uptown and over the next 15 years to come, North End as well.

[Synopsis101]

I still don’t know why we can’t have more than one retail area. South End and Uptown can support retail.

[Temeteron]

14 minutes ago, Synopsis101 said:

I still don’t know why we can’t have more than one retail area. South End and Uptown can support retail.

I agree.  I think they should’ve done a better job at building along the light rail in uptown.  So far there has been very little residential and commercial growth among the blue lynx in uptown in comparison to the transformation of South End and NoDa.  Let’s forget about the epicenter and move on.  We need more development uptown specifically along the light rail and we can support it.  With that, I have a strong feeling the rail trail bridge will help as well.  

[Richhamleigh, DC]

3 hours ago, dnlleffingwell said:

Uptown just needs to add a lot more residential to attract more commercial growth. 

What's the currect population inside the 277 freeway?

[15895]

2 hours ago, Phillydog said:

What's the currect population inside the 277 freeway?

Probably 20,000 - 23,000 i would guess in 2 sq. Miles. Probably over 30k between SouthEnd and uptown. 

But SouthEnd and Metropolitan serve downtown residents. That can’t go ignored. If Legacy Union didn’t deliver retailers, then there’s probably no one way the downtown area has really any chance of having meaningful retail. I again point to Atlanta’s downtown & midtown as what Uptown’s prospective retail scene could look like. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

11 hours ago, Synopsis101 said:

I still don’t know why we can’t have more than one retail area. South End and Uptown can support retail.

Retail is an inclusive term, encompassing consumer goods (general merchandise, apparel, furnishings, etc), personal business services, professional services, professional offices, restaurants, fast food, grocery stores, hotel, theater, music venues, galleries. 

What may make sense for Uptown is a concerted effort to frame/brand it as the place for altogether differentiated, regional consumer experiences...

"Destination Retail and Retail Experiences." 

Retail where you'll only get 1 example of it within 100 miles. 

Cutting-edge Consumer Experiences. 

Not just your typical store either, but a store with a rooftop bar/restaurant, or collection of stores surrounding a piazza/plaza (like San Fran's Union Square), or a showroom that likens itself to a museum (ultra-luxury car dealer perhaps).

 

 

[SgtCampsalot]

I don't like going to South End anymore, but I would shop the heck out of some Epicentre big box retailers

[Synopsis101]

Charlotte residents used to get upset when others called Uptown an office park, 9-5 downtown. We’ve now accepted it. Seems like we’ve lost a lot of our ambition. We’re happy with Uptown being a typical Sunbelt downtown. We could be so much more than that. We need to keep that chip on our shoulder.

[Blue_Devil]

14 minutes ago, Synopsis101 said:

Charlotte residents used to get upset when others called Uptown an office park, 9-5 downtown. We’ve now accepted it. Seems like we’ve lost a lot of our ambition. We’re happy with Uptown being a typical Sunbelt downtown. We could be so much more than that. We need to keep that chip on our shoulder.

It is going to require a lot more Apartment and Condo buildings downtown. If people are living there,  then they will want to have a nightlife there. I expect LU will have some residential soon. 

[kermit]

17 hours ago, Phillydog said:

What's the currect population inside the 277 freeway?

Popstats reports that 18,000 live within 277 and 118,000 are within 3 miles of the square (1Q 2020 data)

Median HH income inside 277 is $88,000 while within 3 miles its $70,000

While many retailers consider Popstats to be the most reliable source of spatial demographics, it struggles with accurate estimates in intown areas (these companies use prediction models calibrated on traditional suburbs).  Some insight of the size of these errors can be gleaned from comparing popstats numbers to those reported by Center City Partners (all stats for inside 277): 

                                          Popstats.        CCCP         Difference
Population                  18,000            32,300          79.4%

MHI                                 $88,000        $119,000     35.2%

Workers                         56,200           116,000       106%

Housing Units             11,022           21,798          97.8%

(the pop and worker figures came from the 2019 CCCP report, MHI and Housing Units came from 2020 report)

None of this is meant to imply that the CCCP figures are unimpeachable but any retailer using commercial demographic data such as Popstats is likely to be seeing large underestimates (50% plus) of the pre COVID buying power inside 277. No one in the industry seems to understand how bad most of their demand statistics are, but the first developer to understand this will make piles of cash.

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by kermit

[15895]

4 hours ago, Synopsis101 said:

Charlotte residents used to get upset when others called Uptown an office park, 9-5 downtown. We’ve now accepted it. Seems like we’ve lost a lot of our ambition. We’re happy with Uptown being a typical Sunbelt downtown. We could be so much more than that. We need to keep that chip on our shoulder.

I want more bars, restaurants & entertainment. Festivals, parks, stadiums, museums Are way more lively than an Urban Outfitters and a small urban format target.

its not really fair to characterize that as wanting a 9-5 office park. 

 

[TheOneRJ]

Bars, parks, and museums clearly aren’t keeping people Uptown, nor are they relatively unique. Uptown needs a true tourist attraction, something like Atlanta’s Ferris wheel and/or aquarium, or Seattle’s Space Needle. That, combined with (hopefully) an actual entertainment district leading to our new stadium will be a reason people want to visit and stay in Uptown outside of corporate requirements. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by TheOneRJ

[DMann]

Or an Apple store 

[Seaboard Fellow]

21 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

Bars, parks, and museums clearly aren’t keeping people Uptown, nor are they relatively unique. Uptown needs a true tourist attraction, something like Atlanta’s Ferris wheel and/or aquarium, or Seattle’s Space Needle. That, combined with (hopefully) an actual entertainment district leading to our new stadium will be a reason people want to visit and stay in Uptown outside of corporate requirements. 

It would be cool to see a CN tower scale monument. A 1000’ scepter would be appropriate for the Queen City

[Blue_Devil]

37 minutes ago, Seaboard Fellow said:

It would be cool to see a CN tower scale monument. A 1000’ scepter would be appropriate for the Queen City

Out of curiosity, when was the last time a CN tower type monument went up in a western country?  

[KJHburg]

Proposed by Burt Gellman on N Tryon in 1992 where 400 North Tryon building stands today.  Last time a pure observation tower built in the country very long time ago not anything recently. 

[CLT2014]

20 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

Out of curiosity, when was the last time a CN tower type monument went up in a western country?  

For towers over 650 feet tall:
Sky Tower in Auckland built in 1997
Stratosphere in Las Vegas built in 1996 

For towers between 300 - 650 feet tall:
British Airways i360 Tower in Brighton UK in 2016
For USA specifically, most recent in this height range is the Eiffel Tower at Paris Las Vegas Hotel in 1999

Outside of Las Vegas, the most recent monument tower built in the USA over 300 feet tall is the Reunion Tower in Dallas (1978). 

Edited October 13, 2020 by CLT2014

[Blue_Devil]

5 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

For towers over 650 feet tall:
Sky Tower in Auckland built in 1997
Stratosphere in Las Vegas built in 1996 

For towers between 300 - 650 feet tall:
British Airways i360 Tower in Brighton UK in 2016
For USA specifically, most recent in this height range is the Eiffel Tower at Paris Las Vegas Hotel in 1999. 

I always found these towers to be super cool, but I just don't know how the cost can be justified now-a-days. Maybe Tepper builds one in his entertainment district on the Panther Stadium land. 

[KJHburg]

34 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

I always found these towers to be super cool, but I just don't know how the cost can be justified now-a-days. Maybe Tepper builds one in his entertainment district on the Panther Stadium land. 

I would say we are better off with a huge ferris wheel is much more attainable and at the epicenter would be a great place for views.  Stratosphere works as their is a casino and hotel at the base of it.  (I have had stayed there but everyone who stays there seems to be British on "holiday". 

[Blue_Devil]

45 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I would say we are better off with a huge ferris wheel is much more attainable and at the epicenter would be a great place for views.  Stratosphere works as their is a casino and hotel at the base of it.  (I have had stayed there but everyone who stays there seems to be British on "holiday". 

So if Tepper builds his entertainment district, do we push to allow casinos?