Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Spartan]

Some food for thought - Jaywalking is generally a factor of bad design or lack of consideration of how and where people will actually walk. The #1 rule of pedestrians is that they will always take the path of least resistance. Roadways aren't really a barrier, they function as more of an obstacle. The way we design our cities (ie: building placement, orientation, parking location, etc) has a direct influence on how people traverse the built environment as do the way we design and operate our roads. The laws governing driver behavior are a part of the equation. My point here is don't fault the pedestrian for doing it, that as pedestrians, most all of us jaywalk at some point in time. Blame the laws that dictate suburban building placement (ie: auto-centric), extremely low density development, and road design and operation. 

In the meantime, enjoy this entertaining, but factual, explanation of jaywalking: 

 

[Nolan]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article74270367.html

These renderings of the LRV/Streetcar is like pure sex...

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article74284692.ece/BINARY/Siemens_Vehicle_Renderings%20(2)

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article74270362.ece/BINARY/Stadler_Vehicle_Renderings

Edited April 28, 2016 by Nolan

[15895]

That Siemens model. Sooo perfect

Edited April 28, 2016 by AirNostrumMAD

[uptownliving]

The Siemens proposal is basically our current LRT vehicles with bumpers...the Stadler proposal looks like its from the movie Tron...kinda cool looking. Any of them will be good.

Here is the current status of the project:

Staff continues to work with the Federal Transit Administration to complete the project’s final
Small Starts Grant Agreement, which was sent to the Department of Labor for review in early
April. Staff anticipates final grant approval by mid-June, prior to the July Request for Council
Action for the vehicle manufacturing contract. Upon execution of the grant, the City can seek
reimbursement of the 50% federal share of the funds expended since the project entered
development in February 2014.

[Deleted.]

Pick the S70 model! It must make more sense than operating a completely new type? 

 

Also, Siemens, change the font you used to write Charlotte Area Transit System. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Piedmont767

[sclark]

Am I correct to assume that these cars will provide a much smoother ride than the current cars?

[southslider]

^Yes

[SgtCampsalot]

I really feel that the Uptown portion should be a transit/pedestrian only corridor. It'd be a long term goal due to so many garage/valet entrances on Trade.

At the very least, the four block "+" portion of the Trade/Tryon blocks would do well as a ped/train only, bounded by College, Church, 4th, and 5th. Of course, even then there's a garage entrance into Founders Hall, and a drop off entrance on the west portion.

[alb1no panther]

Siemens ALL.  THE.  WAY.

I would HATE to see the inward-facing seats.  They need to face the cabin so you can actually look out the window (the purpose of bigger windows!) as opposed to mean mugging the person across from you.

Edited April 28, 2016 by alb1no panther

[15895]

26 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

I really feel that the Uptown portion should be a transit/pedestrian only corridor. It'd be a long term goal due to so many garage/valet entrances on Trade.

At the very least, the four block "+" portion of the Trade/Tryon blocks would do well as a ped/train only, bounded by College, Church, 4th, and 5th. Of course, even then there's a garage entrance into Founders Hall, and a drop off entrance on the west portion.

What about make portions of the streetcar tracks transit only for busses and streetcar? 

[alb1no panther]

14 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

What about make portions of the streetcar tracks transit only for busses and streetcar? 

I concur.  Charlotte desperately needs more BRT lanes.  And with the addition of parking structures on the 277 loop, it would make uptown MUCH more walkable and accessible for EVERYONE.

[jtmonk]

I've never been a big proponent of turning Trade St. or any major street uptown into a permanent pedestrian/transit only corridor.  Unfortunately our built environment does not promote such a need at the moment and i fear it would create dead zones.  What i would promote is closing off a portion of a street, such as 3rd street around the park, parts or Tryon, or some other street one day a week, such as Saturday or Sunday, and have some sort of market so that we can slowly introduce this type of concept to the general public and possibly give the City time to create such a corridor that could support being a permanent pedestrian/transit corridor.  I'm not saying that Trade Street wouldn't work, it just needs a lot of TLC before i would suggest closing it off to vehicular traffic, even if it's just a few blocks. 

[SgtCampsalot]

42 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

I've never been a big proponent of turning Trade St. or any major street uptown into a permanent pedestrian/transit only corridor.  Unfortunately our built environment does not promote such a need at the moment and i fear it would create dead zones.  What i would promote is closing off a portion of a street, such as 3rd street around the park, parts or Tryon, or some other street one day a week, such as Saturday or Sunday, and have some sort of market so that we can slowly introduce this type of concept to the general public and possibly give the City time to create such a corridor that could support being a permanent pedestrian/transit corridor.  I'm not saying that Trade Street wouldn't work, it just needs a lot of TLC before i would suggest closing it off to vehicular traffic, even if it's just a few blocks. 

You're totally right. Our method of doing things is so all-at-once, our system doesn't like incremental ANYTHING. But that's the way to actually make places strong.

[Nolan]

The Siemens S70 streetcar version is 9 ft shorter than the regular LRV at 81 ft. CATS should choose the Siemens based on commonality of parts for easy maintenance. 

 

1 hour ago, jtmonk said:

I've never been a big proponent of turning Trade St. or any major street uptown into a permanent pedestrian/transit only corridor.  Unfortunately our built environment does not promote such a need at the moment and i fear it would create dead zones.  What i would promote is closing off a portion of a street, such as 3rd street around the park, parts or Tryon, or some other street one day a week, such as Saturday or Sunday, and have some sort of market so that we can slowly introduce this type of concept to the general public and possibly give the City time to create such a corridor that could support being a permanent pedestrian/transit corridor.  I'm not saying that Trade Street wouldn't work, it just needs a lot of TLC before i would suggest closing it off to vehicular traffic, even if it's just a few blocks. 

 
Actually Charlotte is going to try this concept this Sunday, May 1st. 7th and Brevard streets will closed in Uptown, and open up to foot and bicycle traffic only lining up with various activities and food vendors, and Davidson Street will also be part of this concept through NoDa. http://openstreets704.com/news/

Edited April 28, 2016 by Nolan

[alb1no panther]

^ beat me to it.  

[tusculan]

While I like the argument that the Siemens would make for some redundancy in parts thereby saving us money... And it possibly could help in negotiating prices with Siemens, I prefer the Stadler. 

Reason 1: functionality. In the numerous times I've used a streetcar, I have always preferred the uniform car model rather than the segment model. What I mean is that the Siemens has a small middle section between the two loading zones. I prefer this for two reasons. I think it makes it easier to move in the Stadler from one end to the other. And more importantly it makes for quicker/easier loading , because there is less bunching toward the ends and more uniform entry. This is important with a streetcar with less stop time than the lgv.

2. Aesthetics. While in a vacuum, the Siemens is fine, I think it looks too much like the lgv. For visitors, both riders and drivers, I think distinguishing between the streetcar and lgv routes will be helpful. Yes, both may use a surface street, but to know one is only for the surface and mostly for segregated right of way helps to orient people.

[tusculan]

Oh yeah. Just on its own merits the Stadler looks more nimble and speedy and projects a great image. I think it fits with having fewer seats--- the goal is not to be for commuters, but quick and local.

[Nolan]

I think the Stadler looks awkward.

Brookville looks decent aesthetically, and this is the streetcar that Dallas uses.

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/streetcar-division.asp

[Deleted.]

I've ridden on the Stadler streetcars in London, they are clunky, slow, noisy and uncomfortable. The Brockville renderings and website doesn't make me very confident in their product. 

I would have liked Bombardier to submit proposals, the Toronto Transit Commission's new Bombardier Flexity Outlook streetcars are wonderful!

 

I also think that if the Gold Line looks more like the Blue Line more people will ride it, as it looks faster and more modern. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Piedmont767

[Nolan]

^Toronto still has issues with the Bombardier Flexity Outlook, some of the streetcars were poorly manufactured like loose parts, faulty under frames and sides. It all stemmed from bad manufacturing at its Mexican plants.  Also, Bombardier is severely behind its delivery schedule to the TTC, and Toronto actually sued Bombardier. It's probably one of the reasons why Bombardier didn't submit proposals to CATS or another other transit agencie recently. 

[tusculan]

7 hours ago, Piedmont767 said:

I've ridden on the Stadler streetcars in London, they are clunky, slow, noisy and uncomfortable. The Brockville renderings and website doesn't make me very confident in their product. 

I would have liked Bombardier to submit proposals, the Toronto Transit Commission's new Bombardier Flexity Outlook streetcars are wonderful!

 

I also think that if the Gold Line looks more like the Blue Line more people will ride it, as it looks faster and more modern. 

Well, if their performance is crumby, then they are of little use. Still, I like the idea of having something that is more local friendly than the Siemens. Unfortunately, there has been a real shake-up in the tram manufacturing sector. The maker of the Portland streetcars has folded and the major Italian manufacturer made substandard material and was taken over by a Korean company. Stadler itself had some recent problems in Munich. I would like to have seen Alstom and Skoda bid for this as well. But we have what we have. 

In this regard, is their a layout plan from the US manufacturer? I didn't see one on the observer page.

[Nolan]

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/Files/Admin/PDFs/BROOKVILLE-Liberty-Modern-Streetcars-2015-WebRes.pdf

The Dallas Streetcar layout is side seats and front facing seats 

[alb1no panther]

19 hours ago, tusculan said:

Reason 1: functionality. In the numerous times I've used a streetcar, I have always preferred the uniform car model rather than the segment model. What I mean is that the Siemens has a small middle section between the two loading zones. I prefer this for two reasons. I think it makes it easier to move in the Stadler from one end to the other. And more importantly it makes for quicker/easier loading , because there is less bunching toward the ends and more uniform entry. This is important with a streetcar with less stop time than the lgv.

My God YES YES YES.  I don't know what's wrong with people.  They get on the trolley and stand at the front.  Meanwhile there's loads of room toward the middle.  If they moved, it would make for much quicker entry.  A las, they won't, so we need a middle entrance for quicker ingress and egress.

[tusculan]

3 hours ago, Nolan said:

http://www.brookvillecorp.com/Files/Admin/PDFs/BROOKVILLE-Liberty-Modern-Streetcars-2015-WebRes.pdf

The Dallas Streetcar layout is side seats and front facing seats 

Thanks, Nolan. I don't think the Brookville is a good enough option. All the boarding is in the middle only, then you have to go up a step to get to the seating areas. Horrible flow! Plus it simply looks like a poor man's Siemens' in my opinion. Its also the slowest ...with a top speed of 45. Maybe this isn't a big issue on the Central route, but hopefully in building a whole network we can get at least 50.  I only see two advantages with the Brookville - its made in the US, and it has batteries that would allow it to cross Tryon without having to put the catenary there.

I think it would be better to look at Stadler to see if they have corrected the problems from Munich and London, and maybe we can get a good price since they have yet to break into the North American market...and then go with them or Siemens. 

[kermit]

12 minutes ago, tusculan said:

Thanks, Nolan. I don't think the Brookville is a good enough option. All the boarding is in the middle only, then you have to go up a step to get to the seating areas. Horrible flow! Plus it simply looks like a poor man's Siemens' in my opinion. Its also the slowest ...with a top speed of 45. Maybe this isn't a big issue on the Central route, but hopefully in building a whole network we can get at least 50.  I only see two advantages with the Brookville - its made in the US, and it has batteries that would allow it to cross Tryon without having to put the catenary there.

I think it would be better to look at Stadler to see if they have corrected the problems from Munich and London, and maybe we can get a good price since they have yet to break into the North American market...and then go with them or Siemens. 

I thought all three companies were speccing vehicles with battery power sufficient to get through the square?