Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[kermit]

1 minute ago, Spartan said:

Is CSX not considering the area near Hoskins Rd anymore?

do you mean the existing intermodal terminal?

Yea, they recently upgraded it, but it is very space constrained. I am just speculating on the possibility of moving the terminal (it would likely take significant state $$$), but the current Hoskins site is problematic for the RR and will become more a more difficult site as NS traffic at the grade crossing increases.

[Third Strike]

Well, I guess the good news is that drivers will be able to use Clement to Hawthrone, as I'm assuming that since phase 3 of the Gold Line will use that alignment, Clement itself will be extended to Hawthrone for motorist to use as well.

[CoffeeSamurai]

I am trying to make sense of all the discussion. I sketched out the streetcar if it were to connect straight into Hawthorne. The streetcar would be very close to the CSX mentioned above, so as it goes under they will have to modify the bridge somehow to allow power cables right? 

I didn't realize that there were buildings in the way of Clement extension. Would CATS be buying that whole Barnhardt parcel (facility/warehouse) or just some of it to connect Clement? There is a driveway around where the Clement extension could be connecting to Hawthorne. 

 

 

[SgtCampsalot]

Yes, I imagine so. (EDIT:) Nope. Though there was a time recently when the streetcar was designed to go to Parkwood, then loop back all the way down the Plaza back to Central. This is the much more reasonable option when you consider travel times.

Edited December 5, 2015 by SgtCampsalot

[southslider]

^No, the concept creates a new street around the warehouses, following more the stream, but still tying into existing Clement Ave from a more northerly direction. 

[archiham04]

If you are confused about the streetcar alignment around the Barnhardt property, you can either refer to the "Charlotte Development Map" on our site, or the City Planning transportation planning pages, which both represent the plans.  Also, I do not think that there is any plan to extend the road traffic portion of Clement.  Streetcars will be able to jump from Clement to Hawthorne, but I do not think cars will... If they did this would likely cause a serious cluster "jam" during train crossings as all of Central would attempt to circumvent the train by using the clement/hawthorne connection, crippling the Streetcar movements.

[southslider]

^Actually, Clement would be extended as a mixed-traffic street.

[Spartan]

On 12/4/2015, 12:40:15, kermit said:

do you mean the existing intermodal terminal?

Yea, they recently upgraded it, but it is very space constrained. I am just speculating on the possibility of moving the terminal (it would likely take significant state $$$), but the current Hoskins site is problematic for the RR and will become more a more difficult site as NS traffic at the grade crossing increases.

Gotcha.

 

On 12/5/2015, 1:30:53, southslider said:

^No, the concept creates a new street around the warehouses, following more the stream, but still tying into existing Clement Ave from a more northerly direction. 

Yes, sort of like this:

[Bikeguy]

At what point can we start pointing to the Streetcar as an economic driver for infill development?  The recent submittal for the townhome development on the old "Jesus Saves" property would certainly be a notch in its belt. And might the Central Ave. developments be also considered, at least somewhat ?

   http://ww.charmeck.org/Planning/Rezoning/2016/017-032/2016-026%20site%20plan.pdf    

[CoffeeSamurai]

2 hours ago, archiham04 said:

If you are confused about the streetcar alignment around the Barnhardt property, you can either refer to the "Charlotte Development Map" on our site, or the City Planning transportation planning pages, which both represent the plans.  Also, I do not think that there is any plan to extend the road traffic portion of Clement.  Streetcars will be able to jump from Clement to Hawthorne, but I do not think cars will... If they did this would likely cause a serious cluster "jam" during train crossings as all of Central would attempt to circumvent the train by using the clement/hawthorne connection, crippling the Streetcar movements.

Ah thanks for pointing it out, I didn't connect the blue line on the map as the streetcar. Much more clear.

[Deleted.]

3 hours ago, archiham04 said:

If you are confused about the streetcar alignment around the Barnhardt property, you can either refer to the "Charlotte Development Map" on our site, or the City Planning transportation planning pages, which both represent the plans.  Also, I do not think that there is any plan to extend the road traffic portion of Clement.  Streetcars will be able to jump from Clement to Hawthorne, but I do not think cars will... If they did this would likely cause a serious cluster "jam" during train crossings as all of Central would attempt to circumvent the train by using the clement/hawthorne connection, crippling the Streetcar movements.

I love the development map, but I have a question: 

Why do the Phase 3 stops don't line up, ie. the name of the stop is closer to another street than the one it is named after eg. Iris Drive stop is closer to Westover Street?

Edited December 7, 2015 by Piedmont767

[tozmervo]

14 minutes ago, Piedmont767 said:

I love the development map, but I have a question: 

Why do the Phase 3 stops don't line up, ie. the name of the stop is closer to another street than the one it is named after eg. Iris Drive stop is closer to Westover Street?

Some of the stop locations are a "best guess" based on older - and not very detailed - maps & station lists. I think the whole long term transit layer was accidentally moved at some point in the past, so I'd also suppose a lot of the station icons didn't get replaced exactly.

[archiham04]

39 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

At what point can we start pointing to the Streetcar as an economic driver for infill development?

We have debated that on this forum before. I personally think that its from the date of announcement.  Others disagree.  In my opinion, the major driver of development in Plaza Midwood over past decade has been the promise of the streetcar.  With every  transit success (blue line) the stock in that promise has gone up.

[cltbwimob]

On 12/4/2015, 12:11:48, kermit said:

^ They were planning to shut down the rail line for 12 months to build the ADM grade separation.

I do agree that not relocating Central avenue over the CSX is already a lost opportunity. However keep in mind that CSX has just closed the Northern portion of this line (the old Clinchfield RR) -- so CSX no longer runs north of Johnson City TN. This means that there is no more coal traffic through NC and CSX no longer has the ability to move intermodal trains north from Charlotte. It is not unlikely that traffic on the CSX will fall and this reduction makes it possible (but not likely) that CSX could be convinced to relocate their intermodal terminal to the Matthews or Monroe area (they need a bigger intermodal terminal) and close the line from the grade separation to 485.

 

I know this is venturing off topic, but you may be on to something here.  A few years ago there were plans to create a large, 250 acre intermodal terminal east of Marshville in a greenfield development project called "Project Legacy".  Supposedly CSX was onboard with the idea but the entire project hinged on completion of the Monroe Bypass.  When the Monroe Bypass' future started looking questionable, the project went dormant.  Now that the Bypass is under construction, this project could, at least in theory, become feasible again. 

If the hypothetical Project Legacy intermodal yard became a reality I think it would decrease the number of trains that go through the NS diamond by four.   I think there are two trains that enter the terminal and two trains that depart the current terminal daily both originating from and departing to Atlanta.  Since these trains require double stack clearances, they arrive and depart Charlotte via Monroe which means they have to go through the diamond.  Moving the intermodal yard to Marshville means they wouldn't be required to make the crazy switch in Monroe to get on the Monroe-Atlanta line which is the primary CSX route through the region.

Given that the Monroe-Charlotte CSX line is already secondary line with approximately 10 trains per day on the line, reducing that number by four would be significant.  If there are further reductions due to the closing of the Clinchfield route, the Monroe-Charlotte line could potentially be relegated to tertiary status with only a few, say three or four, local trains per day which could free up a lot of capacity to use the line for Charlotte-Monroe commuter rail at some point, and may even make the NS-CSX grade separation irrelevant for all intents and purposes.  Additionally, it would likely allow CSX to temporarily close the line in order to construct a grade separated crossing at Central.  Under such a scenario, NCDOT would save $200+ million (NS-CSX grade separation cost) plus the $24 million they were going to spend to help CSX retrofit the current intermodal yard with the giant electric gantry cranes.  That $224 million saved could go a long way toward building not just an intermodal yard, but a mega inland port at Project Legacy where NC Ports could move and expand their Charlotte area terminal and CSX could establish a terminal akin to BNSF Logistics Park or Union Pacific Global 4 in Joliet, Illinois.  See image for reference.

[kermit]

^ I love hearing that I am not crazy!

CSX has been in the mood to shed its lines that carry light traffic, they are currently selling branch lines to commuter rail systems in both Tampa and Miami. Having said that, the Charlotte Subdivision is not a light traffic line yet. However, its possible that between the Clinchfield shutdown and Project Legacy getting built traffic could drop to the point where CSX would sell.  

EDIT: The wild card here is how CSX wants to serve tanktown up at Paw Creek -- that stuff will never be moved. I am sure those tanks generate a significant amount of traffic and its not clear to me if they would be willing to only serve it from the west (Lincolnton, Shelby and Bostic). I just don't have a sense of where those trains go.

Edited December 7, 2015 by kermit

[SgtCampsalot]

Random Stupid Thought: CLT could take advantage of the vintage trolleys being used and make seasonally-specific riding events with decorations, vendors, and actors all along Trade from Hawthorne to N Davidson or something. Like a haunted trolley ride in October, and a "winter wonderland" ride in December/January, complete with scenes in the vacant lots and public land areas.

IDK, if I were a kid I'd be mesmerized by it.

I stole this idea from a radio ad i just heard for Belmont's Train to Chrismastown. So yeah...

[kermit]

^ Yes, except platform height will not be compatible and I believe that the low platform portions of the blue line will be removed due to the capacity enhancement project.

I think the only potential use of the replica cars after Phase II is complete will be on the old P&N tracks from Cedar to Turner (and its unlikely that would be electrified so they would need to use a generator)

[Third Strike]

Just curious, but is there a map, or reference material, for Charlotte's original trolley network? I feel like something of the sort was posted a couple of years ago, but no dice on Google. I know that there were trolley lines in Dilworth, Myers Park, and Uptown, but were any lines constructed in Plaza-Midwood, Elizabeth, and NoDa?

[Spartan]

11 minutes ago, Third Strike said:

Just curious, but is there a map, or reference material, for Charlotte's original trolley network? I feel like something of the sort was posted a couple of years ago, but no dice on Google. I know that there were trolley lines in Dilworth, Myers Park, and Uptown, but were any lines constructed in Plaza-Midwood, Elizabeth, and NoDa?

There aren't a lot of great maps of the lines themselves, but you can see where they ran if you go to this site, and look for the 1935 map of Charlotte. The routes are dashed lines in the center of the streets. It just shows where the tracks are, not individual routes.

http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/search/collection/ncmaps/searchterm/Mecklenburg%20County/field/spatia/mode/exact/conn/and/order/date!title/cosuppress/0/page/2

[Third Strike]

Very informative link. I'll try to convert this info into a map for My Maps on Google Maps. I'll do some scholarly research to find out which line is owned by which company. Should be fun.

I also like how Plaza-Midwood use to be two neighborhoods (Chatham Estates in the west along the Plaza, and Midwood in the east), Commonwealth was part of Chantilly, and Elizabeth was comprised of three neighborhoods (Elizabeth, Rosemont, and Colonial Heights). 

[teeg]

4 hours ago, Spartan said:

There aren't a lot of great maps of the lines themselves, but you can see where they ran if you go to this site, and look for the 1935 map of Charlotte. The routes are dashed lines in the center of the streets. It just shows where the tracks are, not individual routes.

http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/search/collection/ncmaps/searchterm/Mecklenburg%20County/field/spatia/mode/exact/conn/and/order/date!title/cosuppress/0/page/2

Could it be that those dashed lines are bus routes?  

[Spartan]

Nope definitely streetcar.  It's pre-bus  when busses were first introduced in Charlotte they followed the exact same routes as the streetcar. 

[kermit]

FWIW, Atlanta just approved a new streetcar system expansion plan for 50 additional miles of streetcars, nut only 22 miles of will run in dedicated ROW on the belt line. I kinda doubt the full plan will be funded since the full plan needs to pass a referrenda on a new transit sales tax next year, but its interesting that a dramatically expanded streetcar network is the direction Atlanta wants to move in. 

http://commuting.blog.ajc.com/2015/12/09/atlanta-approves-streetcar-expansion-plan/

For the record, I do think streetcar service on the beltline and some short extensions to connect to MARTA stations are a great idea for Atlanta. The cross town routes they propose might be logical connections, but in the absence of dedicated ROW, the seem kinda futile.

Edited December 10, 2015 by kermit

[tozmervo]

If they could figure out how to muster a separate the Peachtree line from traffic, that would a mega huge game changer for transit in ATL. 

[charlottegirl]

Thought this was interesting.  The article specifically mentions Charlotte as an eligible city.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/smart-cities-challenge-transportation-prize_56660184e4b08e945ff09aaf