Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[kermit]

[to Piedmont] Yes, but a Cedar Street routing would make a Lakewood spur _incredibly_ cheap. As I frequently say here, Seversville has the potential to be a slightly smaller and cooler Southend and this would make it a perfect for TIF.

Unfortunately the line on the new map appears to be nothing more than the original 2030 plan idea (although I think the explicit choice of Cedar Street is new). One thing I prematurely wonder about is where the West line would terminate. It makes little sense to me to turn the vehicles at Cedar and Trade (thus forcing nearly everyone into 2 or 3 or 4 seat rides to the airport). Running the West Line through to Plaza / post-Eastland would certainly pick up more riders and increase frequencies on the Gold Line route. Turing West Line trans at the CTC feels weird and wasteful and I have a hard time imagining they would accommodate turn arounds there. 

[EDIT: No reason that a 'streetcar' could not be put into dedicated ROW on the South side or center of Wilkenson]

Edited May 25, 2016 by kermit

[ajfunder]

Hmm the Hawthorne Bridge segment is now off wire even though the earlier renderings depicted it being a wired segment. The section through the square will be off wire which should minimize the construction impact on the sidewalks. I guess the segment by Gateway is to avoid bridge clearance conflicts.

Also I hope the city gives the Gomaco cars to Lakewood Trolley when phase 2 opens. I know an OCS system would have to be installed but would be a great asset for Lakewood Trolley.

Edited May 25, 2016 by ajfunder

[cltbwimob]

21 hours ago, kermit said:

[to Piedmont] Yes, but a Cedar Street routing would make a Lakewood spur _incredibly_ cheap. As I frequently say here, Seversville has the potential to be a slightly smaller and cooler Southend and this would make it a perfect for TIF.

Unfortunately the line on the new map appears to be nothing more than the original 2030 plan idea (although I think the explicit choice of Cedar Street is new). One thing I prematurely wonder about is where the West line would terminate. It makes little sense to me to turn the vehicles at Cedar and Trade (thus forcing nearly everyone into 2 or 3 or 4 seat rides to the airport). Running the West Line through to Plaza / post-Eastland would certainly pick up more riders and increase frequencies on the Gold Line route. Turing West Line trans at the CTC feels weird and wasteful and I have a hard time imagining they would accommodate turn arounds there. 

[EDIT: No reason that a 'streetcar' could not be put into dedicated ROW on the South side or center of Wilkenson]

I think the streetcar line to the airport will probably be abandoned in favor of continuing the Silver line to the airport.  It seems, based on my reading of various articles and reports, that CATS is interested in building a light rail line to the airport, and there has been talk about how to best route the Silver line through Uptown such that it allows for an SLE (Silver Line Extension) to the airport in the future.

[cltbwimob]

21 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Hmm the Hawthorne Bridge segment is now off wire even though the earlier renderings depicted it being a wired segment. The section through the square will be off wire which should minimize the construction impact on the sidewalks. I guess the segment by Gateway is to avoid bridge clearance conflicts.

Also I hope the city gives the Gomaco cars to Lakewood Trolley when phase 2 opens. I know an OCS system would have to be installed but would be a great asset for Lakewood Trolley.

I think they should use the replica cars in addition to Car 85 and that Trolley they procured from Charleston that needs refurbishing.  In my fantasy land, Victory/ST would take over Savona Mill and provide private funding to the Lakewood trolley line.  They could help restore the line from Savona to Cedar Yards where it could then be tied into CGS via Cedar Street.  Imagine how cool it would be to have a beautiful, historic, century-old mill serving as their home with a dedicated beer trolley to uptown.  It would probably be the only such trolley in the world and It would be epic.

[archiham04]

On 5/25/2016 at 5:24 PM, ajfunder said:

Hmm the Hawthorne Bridge segment is now off wire even though the earlier renderings depicted it being a wired segment. The section through the square will be off wire which should minimize the construction impact on the sidewalks. I guess the segment by Gateway is to avoid bridge clearance conflicts.

Also I hope the city gives the Gomaco cars to Lakewood Trolley when phase 2 opens. I know an OCS system would have to be installed but would be a great asset for Lakewood Trolley.

^ I would assume that by taking trolley off wire there they have avoided the need to replace the bridge?

[Deleted.]

1 minute ago, archiham04 said:

^ I would assume that by taking trolley off wire there they have avoided the need to replace the bridge?

Nope, the existing bridge cant support the weight of the streetcar vehicles, thats why it is being replaced. I think the cost of replacing Hawthorne bridge is why Phase 2 doesn't go beyond Sunnyside. 

[southslider]

^It's also very expensive to go around the CSX RR. So Sunnyside is close to a Plaza stop as it gets for Phase 2.

[alb1no panther]

Figured this was as good a place as any to post....I was looking at the 2020 Vision Plan, and noticed this image.  Anyone care to comment on the concept of building a park over 277?

[Synopsis101]

277 cap?

[alb1no panther]

Yeah just did a quick search.  I wasn't around back in 2008!

[go_vertical]

The 277 cap is something that has been showing up in various renderings for quite a while now. It's pretty much a pie-in-the-sky idea at the moment. I would love to see it happen and think it could become a reality someday in the future but it would require nearly every available lot around it to be developed first before the financials will make sense. 

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, go_vertical said:

The 277 cap is something that has been showing up in various renderings for quite a while now. It's pretty much a pie-in-the-sky idea at the moment. I would love to see it happen and think it could become a reality someday in the future but it would require nearly every available lot around it to be developed first before the financials will make sense. 

Agreed, it'd be SO expensive.

I wish gov'ts would understand that you don't even need a "cap" to make a bridge/highway less detrimental, you really just need a wide bridge. You COULD build it to sustain a structure, or soil/foliage, but it only needs the width and safety to allow people to feel comfortable for it to have a positive effect. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[alb1no panther]

With Tryon Place coming up and the excess land on Hill St being converted to a pocket park, it'd make sense to start the cap there.  But I agree, pie-in-sky idea right now.  Would be awesome someday . . . maybe after the Observer site is complete.  So, about 15 more years lol.

[kermit]

Gold Line average weekday ridership compiled from CATS quarterly FTA reports:

April 2016: 1,773
January 2016: 1,707
October 2015: 1,709
August 2015: 1,682
July 2015: 1,507 (from Observer http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article32342751.html )

Projected ridership: 1,100 (also from Observer article above)

Projected ridership (initial FTA grant application): 900 (from Observer article)

Edited May 29, 2016 by kermit

[Niner National]

18 hours ago, kermit said:

Gold Line average weekday ridership compiled from CATS quarterly FTA reports:

April 2016: 1,773
January 2016: 1,707
October 2015: 1,709
August 2015: 1,682
July 2015: 1,507 (from Observer http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article32342751.html )

Projected ridership: 1,100 (also from Observer article above)

Projected ridership (initial FTA grant application): 900 (from Observer article)

I hate to be negative, but I bet that number falls when they start charging people to ride.

[15895]

I think it's still positive data. It seems like Atlanta's has been a catastrophe from what I've read. 

[southslider]

Fortunately, many CPCC and JCSU students have transit passes, which will be good for Gold Line, once a fare is charged. 

[ajfunder]

Just gonna point out that the streetcar has had only one vehicle operating for the last 10 days. Apparently car 92 and 93 are down and it has been extremely frustrating as a frequent streetcar rider. Headways even at peak times have been close to 20-30 minutes and I have opted to walk/bike instead of waiting.

Edited May 30, 2016 by ajfunder

[kermit]

^ I thought things seemed really sparse yesterday when I biked the route, I just chalked it up to holiday schedule. But a 20 minute headway is way too long for the streetcar no matter what day it is.

Atlanta's system has definitely been a disaster. On the other hand Kansas City's new line (only open about three weeks) has been killing it (averaging around 6,400 riders per day on a 2.2 mile loop -- about double us on a per mile basis). Granted they still have the novelty factor going for them, but it appears to be a well designed project. They also will always be free to ride, they set up a neighborhood services district to pay for operating costs and part of that deal was for it to be a fare-free service.

[Squid7085]

8 hours ago, kermit said:

^ I thought things seemed really sparse yesterday when I biked the route, I just chalked it up to holiday schedule. But a 20 minute headway is way too long for the streetcar no matter what day it is.

Atlanta's system has definitely been a disaster. On the other hand Kansas City's new line (only open about three weeks) has been killing it (averaging around 6,400 riders per day on a 2.2 mile loop -- about double us on a per mile basis). Granted they still have the novelty factor going for them, but it appears to be a well designed project. They also will always be free to ride, they set up a neighborhood services district to pay for operating costs and part of that deal was for it to be a fare-free service.

I just moved to Charlotte from the KC area. The streetcar there was extremely well planned out, and benefited from really building the whole thing all at once. The "loop" really hits all the big spots downtown, and is really actually convenient from a transportation point of view, and not just novelty. The free for use thing Is really the way I think a streetcar loop like that has to work. The streetcar here feels like much more of a "line" at full buildout for actually commuting rather than the KC streetcar being a "loop" that works much better for downtown circulation.

[LKN704]

Why has Atlanta's streetcar been a disaster?

[tozmervo]

They've had operational/safety problems and have fallen short of their ridership expectations (in 2015: 900,000 riders vs 1.1 million expected)

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/transportation/cling-clang-clunk-inside-the-atlanta-streetcars-fi/npnH7/

For comparison's sake: Their ridership is about 11,000 riders per mile per month. GoldLine is about 1,100 riders per mile per month

[atlrvr]

My math came out way differently, under the assumption that Atlanta did 900k in 2015 with free fares, on a 2.7 mile system.

Using 2015 when they were both free: Atlanta = 27,000 per mile/per month; Charlotte = 34,000 per mile/per month

So Charlotte, or a "no fare" basis is outperforming Atlanta by 25%, and that's using the old nostalgic vehicles (and I'd argue less connected given Streetcar doesn't go to West Trade yet)

Atlanta in 1Q16, when they started charging, ridership dropped to 11,000 per mile / per month

[tozmervo]

39 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

My math came out way differently, under the assumption that Atlanta did 900k in 2015 with free fares, on a 2.7 mile system.

Using 2015 when they were both free: Atlanta = 27,000 per mile/per month; Charlotte = 34,000 per mile/per month

So Charlotte, or a "no fare" basis is outperforming Atlanta by 25%, and that's using the old nostalgic vehicles (and I'd argue less connected given Streetcar doesn't go to West Trade yet)

Atlanta in 1Q16, when they started charging, ridership dropped to 11,000 per mile / per month

You're absolutely right, I basically dropped a zero. I blame holiday brain. Go Charlotte!

[birky]

I am...not crazy about a spur of the streetcar on Cedar.  It just doesn't make sense to me; it's a quiet residential street.