Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[birky]

Not just right downtown, but with Phase 2 in place, you're talking about people who live in Gateway, northern Wesley Heights, Biddleville, Seversville, etc.  Those areas have loads of potential for development.  Despite the fact that the streetcar is slow, what you're offering to people are options, and that's the important thing.  Studies show that young professionals want multiple transportation options.  Demand will increase in those areas touched by the streetcar.

 

I don't think we should expect development like SouthEnd has seen.  It's doubtful that even the BLE will have produce the same kind of development, at least in the short term.  But people generally, I think, view streetcars in a much better light than buses.

[archiham04]

I also think that thinking of Central ave as a collector for people going to other places around the city is probably misguided.  I think there is a healthy amount of point to point travel along Central.  There is a lot of activity, business and people on that corridor.  It is a little city unto itself with the highest population density in the Charlotte.. and I would assume NC.

 

I don't think people will be as concerned about whether the streetcar gets them into downtown faster than their car or the bus.  I think they will be ecstatic that there is a permanent, reliable pickup point and dropoff point that has dense retail and neighborhood services surrounding each stop along the way.

[Spartan]

So - I get that this is a desired effect. My point is that if the streetcar moves so slowly (6 mph) I have seen quoted...and most people in this country would move to a place to limit the commute to under 45 minutes. If you think 5 minutes to the station, 10 minutes from the station to work...that would mean only a 6 mile route would actually spur development for people who work uptown. Admittedly, some will work in Elizabeth..but I don't see how the line will really be feasible past Eastway without it being constructed so as to be quicker. 

 

Moreover, this is only to get you to Trade and Tryon, so the idea of operating at this speed and trying to create greater city movement from the West to the East side and vice versa seems even less likely.

 

Note - I do think this is a good idea. I like the idea behind streetcars. But if they don't actually help one to get where they are going any quicker, I don't see how they can really be viable.

 

I feel like people get caught up in the notion that the only way transit can succeed or measured as being successful is if it's faster than driving. I think it has to be more convenient than driving (which is not the same thing as travel time). If you live in the city and are just trying to get around, a true urban circulator is a useful transportation option.

 

Rail has a psychological effect too. It has a sense of permanence that attracts developers and people in a way that buses simply don't and cant. The power of knowing where the route is going and where the stops are is huge. What I would like to see is the city use those electric buses powered by an overhead catenary like I've seen in cities out west. To me those make a lot of sense because the routes feel more permanent than a bus, but its still a bus.

[dubone]

 

Note - I do think this is a good idea. I like the idea behind streetcars. But if they don't actually help one to get where they are going any quicker, I don't see how they can really be viable.

 

They are not rapid transit, but "quicker" is relative.   It would take an equal time to drive from Novant to TWC Arena as the streetcar, but then you need to park.  That will take twice as long as the drive to circle around to find a deck then circle up the deck to a space, then the elevator down and pay, etc.   

 

In an urban or dense location, this allows support for non-driving activities that are quicker than the alternatives.  Also, Blue line riders may not be going to a place downtown that immediately next to the Blue Line, so this is a circulator that allows them to quickly go east-west and be closer to far more destinations (Novant, CPCC, Govt Center, Gateway, J&W, JCSU, and associated neighborhoods).   It will be "quicker" for those transit riders.    

 

The world is far more complex than  racing the streetcar with a riced up honda,  "I WONN the Trade Street 500m Dash!!!"

[southslider]

Put another way, streetcars only work where bike-sharing works.

[15895]

I would take streetcar from uptownto Plaza-Midwood a lot but not a bus. And I wouldn't drive from uptown, mostly because I take bus or LRT to uptown. And if I'm going to drive in my car from place to place it defeats the point of me going to the city when I could just stay in LKN & drive from place to place (or th community shuttles where you play chicken on 95% of the routes trying to cross the roads that are busier than sin)

I'm not a train aficionado, there's just something appealing of walking to a platform walking on & not having to worry about when to pull the string, etc

[tozmervo]

Gold Line being tested under it's own power last night!

http://www.wsoctv.com/videos/news/raw-video-uptown-street-car-test/vDMrHk/

[Guest]

Gold Line being tested under it's own power last night!

http://www.wsoctv.com/videos/news/raw-video-uptown-street-car-test/vDMrHk/

Yea Yea, April Fools, its all CGI

[tozmervo]

damn, you must have spotted the CGI bill james taking it for a joyride.

[navigator319]

Going on record right now that when this opens its not going to be good.  Its going to provide all kinds of opportunity for critics and its gonna be messy and possibly jeopardize Phase 2.  I'd go so far to say that if there is no Phase 2 then Phase 1 probably should be shut off preemptively before economics/ridership forces it and it does more damage to rail projects.  For the record I support the streetcar and more rail here in Charlotte and support additionally funding through taxes for this goal, but this wont do any favors to helping to that end.

[15895]

Going on record right now that when this opens its not going to be good. Its going to provide all kinds of opportunity for critics and its gonna be messy and possibly jeopardize Phase 2. I'd go so far to say that if there is no Phase 2 then Phase 1 probably should be shut off preemptively before economics/ridership forces it and it does more damage to rail projects. For the record I support the streetcar and more rail here in Charlotte and support additionally funding through taxes for this goal, but this wont do any favors to helping to that end.

Why do you think that?

[ah59396]

Going on record right now that when this opens its not going to be good.  Its going to provide all kinds of opportunity for critics and its gonna be messy and possibly jeopardize Phase 2.  I'd go so far to say that if there is no Phase 2 then Phase 1 probably should be shut off preemptively before economics/ridership forces it and it does more damage to rail projects.  For the record I support the streetcar and more rail here in Charlotte and support additionally funding through taxes for this goal, but this wont do any favors to helping to that end.

 

 

I'm in your camp too.  I hope we are SO WRONG.

[birky]

Going on record right now that when this opens its not going to be good.  Its going to provide all kinds of opportunity for critics and its gonna be messy and possibly jeopardize Phase 2.  I'd go so far to say that if there is no Phase 2 then Phase 1 probably should be shut off preemptively before economics/ridership forces it and it does more damage to rail projects.  For the record I support the streetcar and more rail here in Charlotte and support additionally funding through taxes for this goal, but this wont do any favors to helping to that end.

 

Larry Bumgarner is forced to ride the streetcar for an unknown work reason. An abrupt stop propels him through the front window, and he loses part of an arm.  He sues the city into bankruptcy, and Charlotte has to eliminate all public transit and outreach programs.  Larry, now a billionaire, receives the world's first bionic transplant, and uses his newly established fame and fortune to win election as mayor of the city, where he proceeds to run Charlotte with [literally] an iron first for decades, turning it into a conservative southern oasis and tax haven.

 

 

Edit: Sorry, I thought we were disclosing our worst fears about the streetcar.

Edited April 1, 2015 by birky

[Guest]

I'm in your camp too.  I hope we are SO WRONG.

Sigh, me too. In my opinion, the right way is the only way. The starter line should go from Plaza Midwood to Uptown. Second Phase should go to Gateway and JCSU. Third Phase should extend just passed Morningside Village. Then this should be the terminus of the line. They also should never use the Modernized Trolley Cars. WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE FINE, but the public doesn't take them seriously.

[navigator319]

Why do you think that?

1. Don't see the value in the path of the train. Cpcc students I don't feel will use it in any decent numbers. And there are no other large numbers of riders to draw from.

2. Like it or not perception of these 'tinker toys' not good. Yes I know they are modern. Average joe will not and only see something from the '70's with out ever giving the inside a chance.

3. The drivers sharing the road with these are going to flat out hate the configuration.

4. Speed

5. Uneducated inaccurate costs for the system widespread in population Ex. $200 million for this!

[uptownliving]

As someone who has actually ridden the #14, #15, and #39 buses that serve CPCC and Presby I think that the ridership will be there. CATS is replacing those 3 bus routes with 1 streetcar to serve the people that want to go from the Transit Center to CPCC and Presby. The ridership was there before the streetcar and I think it will be there after the streetcar starts as well.

[MilZ]

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think people who see the value in the street car will still be pro-extension and the people who don't will still be against it. What will they say about it that is worse than what they already complain about? The Boondoggle Saints will always be campaigning against any public spending despite what it accomplishes.

It certainly would be helpful for a development or two to pop up down Elizabeth Ave in the near future to help the cause, and maybe traffic increases at places like Viva during lunch and on weekends for uptown visitors.

[CLTProductions]

Yeah, I think it's cool but I just can't see myself using it. They went the complete wrong way for phase 1 as this is the LEAST likely direction to see ridership. TONS of people take the goldrush along trade to gateway, would be much better suited going that way.

[ah59396]

Yeah, I think it's cool but I just can't see myself using it. They went the complete wrong way for phase 1 as this is the LEAST likely direction to see ridership. TONS of people take the goldrush along trade to gateway, would be much better suited going that way.

 

 

I really wish they could have gotten phase 1 all the way to Central Ave along Hawthorne.  At least it would have then served some actual residential areas.  As is, no one lives on Trade.  No one lives on Elizabeth.  And no one lives on Hawthorne until you cross 7th.  Obviously some will walk to the stations, but I just feel like they could have easily snagged all the P-Midwood folks by just getting it the extra quarter mile to Central.  Argh.

[tozmervo]

Don't underestimate CP and Presby's power for trip generation. Like uptownliving said, buses can empty out and fill back up at the CP stops alone. Among other things, CP has a pretty distinct lack of parking, so many students will take transit just to avoid the high cost of parking tags (about $100 for full time)

[nonillogical]

I don't know anything about the logistics of this, but it seems like it would be in Grubb's best interest to go ahead and develop just one of his Elizabeth Ave parcels in a highly-visible way to contribute to a successful image for the streetcar, therefore making his other parcels that much more valuable and safer bets for larger future developments, right? 

[Guest]

I don't know anything about the logistics of this, but it seems like it would be in Grubb's best interest to go ahead and develop just one of his Elizabeth Ave parcels in a highly-visible way to contribute to a successful image for the streetcar, therefore making his other parcels that much more valuable and safer bets for larger future developments, right? 

Supposedly there will be an apartment project announced in the next 6th months on the Elizabeth Avenue Corridor... I just hope its not too little too late.

[kermit]

Sure the starter segment is suboptimal but:

 

1) it was cheap and the Federal government paid for 2/3 of the cost (IIRC)

2) It is certainly Not a train to nowhere. It connects the state's largest business district (and the state's highest capacity transit line) to the state's 9th largest medical district. As a bonus it has the state's largest college (where parking is expensive) in between.

3) It connects what could become a nice entertainment district to a growing rail transit system.

4) It will (potentially) connect a significant sports and events venue (Memorial stadium) to downtown

5) It can (hopefully) catalyze some development in what is arguably the most neglected portion of central Charlotte. I would really feel better about the Gold Line if some Elizabeth projects had already been announced.

6) Its presence certainly helped us (probably) get the New Starts grant for Phase II

 

Honestly I think it is a pretty good compromise given the situation. While you guys note the real risks associated with this start small strategy I think we are in much better shape than places like Tuscon, Cincinnati and Kansas City who are building streetcars that do not have connections to existing rail transit systems. In addition, the starter project has a clear pathway to a very useful line if it can ever connect Plaza/Central and Five Points.

[Niner National]

Sure the starter segment is suboptimal but:

 

1) it was cheap and the Federal government paid for 2/3 of the cost (IIRC)

2) It is certainly Not a train to nowhere. It connects the state's largest business district (and the state's highest capacity transit line) to the state's 9th largest medical district. As a bonus it has the state's largest college (where parking is expensive) in between.

3) It connects what could become a nice entertainment district to a growing rail transit system.

4) It will (potentially) connect a significant sports and events venue (Memorial stadium) to downtown

5) It can (hopefully) catalyze some development in what is arguably the most neglected portion of central Charlotte. I would really feel better about the Gold Line if some Elizabeth projects had already been announced.

6) Its presence certainly helped us (probably) get the New Starts grant for Phase II

 

Honestly I think it is a pretty good compromise given the situation. While you guys note the real risks associated with this start small strategy I think we are in much better shape than places like Tuscon, Cincinnati and Kansas City who are building streetcars that do not have connections to existing rail transit systems. In addition, the starter project has a clear pathway to a very useful line if it can ever connect Plaza/Central and Five Points.

I think everyone here realizes this, but I also think the fear is that virtually nobody is going to ride it.

 

If the best we can say right now is it lets people in the 9th biggest medical district in the state ride uptown for lunch and vice versa, the general public isn't going to think very highly of it.

[kermit]

 

If the best we can say right now is it lets people in the 9th biggest medical district in the state ride uptown for lunch and vice versa, the general public isn't going to think very highly of it.

 

meh, that is the nature of transit. Currently about 20,000 people ride the Blue Line each day, so (to take an extream view) most of the remaining 980,000 county residents are likely to say light rail is a waste because they 'don't use it.' In the case of the GoldLine, will there be a material difference to its perception if 997,000 county residents don't ride instead of 990,000 county residents not riding? I am not convinced that the negative response will be significantly different.

 

Haters gonna hate.