Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[15895]

^ I'm sure you have. If you seen the transit map you'd probably remember. I'm on my phone or I'd post a link to the transit 2030 or whatever decade map

[Missmylab4]

Just saw link on bizjournal that improvement plan/streetcar talks was cancelled. Does this mean the mayor has given up?? Sorry on phone or would link article.

This will be really sad if this is all of the streetcar line we see. Maybe I read it wrong but sounded like the towel has been thrown in.

Edit: sorry I was wrong

Edited November 26, 2012 by Missmylab4

[tozmervo]

The budget meeting has been delayed to mid-December. Ostensibly to work more on a "streetcar compromise."

[Urbanity]

The overall budget talks (not improvement plan/streetcar specific only) were postponed till Dec 17th not cancelled

Edit - Tozmervo beat me!

Edited November 26, 2012 by Urbanity

[cltbwimob]

Hopefully this gets passed and maybe afterwards we can shoot for The airport extension. Didn't Jerry Orr say he'd use airport funds to help fund a line out there? That, and maybe for the rosa parks extensions, shoot for federal dollars.

Anyone think it will be passed tonight?

Jerry Orr said he would try to secure airport funds for a light rail line to the airport. He and other members of the airport advisory committee are critical of the notion of using streetcar for that corridor and are pro light rail. You can find all this buried in the minutes from the monthly airport advisory committee meetings from a couple of years ago. I have to say I agree with them.

Given the funding difficulties I am not sure this is hugely relevant but I just noticed this quote in the article linked above:

I have not heard overt talk of an airport link in this round of funding talks, sounds like the airport link was added to broaden support for the extension.

It was part of the original 2030 plan which was proposed in 2006. The idea for the streetcar to the airport is not a new one.

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/2030Plan/Documents/2030SystemPlan0711.pdf

[tozmervo]

There's an agglomeration of the 2030 plan on Google Maps here: http://goo.gl/maps/v9kRu

Yellow is the streetcar corridor, the reds are a couple of BRT corridors.

[dubone]

The study earlier showed that there would be very little time savings from BRT or streetcar to the airport, especially as the city slowly adds bus GPS location to its traffic signal management software.

I fully support the idea of a LRT on the railroad right of way. Regardless, the discussions of a streetcar extension to the airport are far less pressing than the uptown portion.

The articles lately reveal what I did not realize before, that the 4mi line pitched in the CIP would have been scheduled to open simultaneously to the 1.5 starter line, so that it was a 4-mi starter line instead. That is a good idea, that I do hope happens, because it really would be unfortunate to have the haters point to such a short line, whereas a line that included the West End, Gateway, and Midwood with a modern streetcar would be far more successful to prove the point (especially if they continue with the plan to be fare-free).

[Missmylab4]

I have no doubt the 4- mile starter line would prove to be extremely successful. Whereas I have my reservations about the 1.5 mile line with replica trolleys

[Guest]

I have no doubt the 4- mile starter line would prove to be extremely successful. Whereas I have my reservations about the 1.5 mile line with replica trolleys

I won't be 1.5 mile long. Its already going to be 1 mile long and THEN a 1.5 mile extension. So 2.5 miles.

I do think the extension is going in the wrong direction though. IMHO, Plaza Midwood to Downtown is a NO BRAINER, and is more important to ridership and being successful than JCSU. Linking two important neighborhoods (Uptown and P-M) would be 100x more appropriate and widely used.

[kermit]

I won't be 1.5 mile long. Its already going to be 1 mile long and THEN a 1.5 mile extension. So 2.5 miles.

nah, the starter line is 1.3 miles long from CTC to Hawthorne (I did not include the non-revenue loop around the arena).

[dubone]

Stimulus-funded Starter Line: 1.5 miles for $37m

• 1.3mi Trade & Lynx to 5th & Hawthorne
  
• 0.2mi Non-revenue connector from 5th & Lynx to Caldwell & Trade
  
  
  Capital Investment Plan Extensions: 2 miles for $119m (unfunded)
  • 2.0mi Trade & Lynx to French & Beatties Ford
    
  • 0.5mi 5th & Hawthorne to Sunnyside & Hawthorne
    

  Total: 4 miles for $156m ($39m/mi), 16% federally funded.

  https://maps.google....038352,0.067463

[Third Strike]

I won't be 1.5 mile long. Its already going to be 1 mile long and THEN a 1.5 mile extension. So 2.5 miles.

I do think the extension is going in the wrong direction though. IMHO, Plaza Midwood to Downtown is a NO BRAINER, and is more important to ridership and being successful than JCSU. Linking two important neighborhoods (Uptown and P-M) would be 100x more appropriate and widely used.

I think the biggest reason for running the extension in that direction is so that the streetcar line can run past the future Gateway Station site. This would directly link the GS with the CTC, giving the Blue Line direct access to the Red Line, and possibly the Silver and airport lines. Also, it would cover the entire footprint of Uptown with streetcar running northwest to southeast, along with the Blue Line covering the northeast to southwest. I do agree that the next expansion after this one should make it to Plaza Midwood.

[ah59396]

I just got back from Amsterdam and really feel differently about street cars after being there. Obviously the system there benefits from the size of it's system, along with the general mindset of the Dutch society towards mass transit, but they really do a great job of integrating their network into the existing roadway, making it a sort of "semi-ROW" system.

In a lot of places, they provided the system dedicated ROW while in others, it just sat in general traffic. It moved swiftly through traffic and appeared to utilize some sort of system upon approach of traffic lights of changing them in a quick fashion. The rolling stock was modern and managed heavy capacities quite well and really had the feel of a light rail network. I was very impressed and really like the neighborhood connectivity it provided. I've utilized other street car networks before (The TTC in Toronto for example) but found the Amsterdam model to be one that Charlotte should truly aspire for...again at a smaller level.

[15895]

That is the model Charlotte is shooting for. If I'm not mistaken, our streetcar will have their own lane in some parts of it. For example, street car tracks could be in the middle of lanes of traffic with curbs/trees separating the streetcar lane from actual traffic lanes. Or like the part of streetcar that will go through independence park.

That's why I think streetcar to the airport is not a bad idea if designed right.

[kermit]

^ I suspect one of the biggest barriers for streetcar implementation in Charlotte is semantic. The phrase 'streetcar' has become coopted by the anti-transit set to now have a nationwide implication of mean slow and inefficient technology. A new name (something better than "rapid-rail" perhaps invoking the concept of HOV) and some demonstration that shared ROW fixed-rail technology can be efficient (something I fear the starter project may not do) would go a long way to generate public support for the mode. If portions of the airport line are in seperate ROW that have higher speeds than street running that fact should be front and center in funding discussions as should priority signaling, pre-boarding fare purchase and complementarity with other transit modes.

I suspect that the Amsterdam, Toronto (and Melbourne) examples could offer the Charlotte city council lots of interesting examples of this strategy. I fear that the commonly cited Portland example might be a poor analogue for Charlotte due to its slow speed, low frequency and poor integration with LRT. Its sucess in stimulating development is noteworthy, however selling development potential to the public is tough if voters start with the assumption that streetcars are "inferior busses."

Edited November 28, 2012 by kermit

[15895]

I suggest we call it Lynx purple/pink/yellow/whatever line.

[ajfunder]

^I agree, I like LYNX Green Line for the center city corridor, mostley because on all of the maps the streetcar is represented by a green line. At one point I heard the airport line would be called the LYNX orange line. By adding the LYNX name instead of streetcar, I think it may help both projects images.

Alex

[Missmylab4]

I also like the idea, Lynx Green Line.

[HopHead]

I guess that's been my big problem with the streetcar. Every time I read an article or hear about a budget I think of those trolley cars in San Francisco or something completely inefficient in terms of speed, which I'm sure most anti-transit folks do. I'm still not 100% sold on streetcars in CLT either as I'd rather see the money used elsewhere, but changing the name could go towards helping change the mindset for people.

[15895]

Yeah. Streetcar makes me think Of traffic. But lynx green line makes me think of rail. Streetcar also makes me think of streets. Streetcar doesn't always have to be in the road. It can have its own lane or go through a park or something or even have a bridge over a major intersection. So it is possible to have a rapid "streetcar" transit system that can avoid a lot of traffic and hold a lot more people and still sexier than a bus (which being sexy helps density, development, etc). We used "streetcar" on the blue line before LRT vehicles.

It just sounds silly to have a Rapid mass Streetcar system VS. Lynx mass rapid green line with the a streetcar that looks just like the lynx blue line LRT. Or even call it Lynx Inner city Green line. Whatever, but shed the streetcar name...

Edited November 29, 2012 by AirNostrumMAD

[New Name]

Streetcar is a pretty odd name, if you think about it. Shouldn't it be "Streetrain?"  I think the powers-that-be have a done a pretty terrible job in showing that it is more than a ding-ding-trolley. I think we've all oogled the pictures before... and we know that it looks like a smaller version of the light rail trains. There is a lot of room in the term streetcar (and functionality too). Boston's Green Line is a subway/light rail & "streetcar" depending on where it is rolling. Pittsburgh is the same. 

[ah59396]

Tram, I like tram.

[tozmervo]

PSA:

 

Please join us for a Public Open House to hear updates on the Charlotte Streetcar Starter Project

 

Thursday, December 6, 2012

5:00 – 7:00 p.m.

Room 267 – Charlotte Mecklenburg Government Center

 

Drop in any time during the Open House to talk with the project team about the upcoming construction of the 1.5 mile Streetcar Starter Project. There will be no formal presentation.

 

Please direct questions about the meeting to Michelle Gutt, City of Charlotte Corporate Communications and Marketing, 704-353-1157 or [email protected].  

[dubone]

I vastly prefer the term tram to streetcar.   I think the streetcar term should be reserved to the historic style, but tram for the modern.  It gets people to understand it as a new and modern thing, not a throwback.    

[rooster8]

Seeing this type of vehicle for the interim period will not help change the perception.  It would be nice if they could get a modern loaner for a few years.