Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Urbanity]

^Get the same feeling.   Foxx is going all Braveheart.

[nowensone]

^^^ Saw the same article, a poster makes reference to Foxx having a personal stake in this, related to Designline, any truth to that? 

[Missmylab4]

It is a car crash situation. I was for the street car and still am however it has been taken soo far at this point. The BLE is the most important project for the next 5 years. Everything else is second. It's gotten to a ridiculus high stake game of chicken. They should box for charity.

[15895]

I say keep fighting for the extension. Dont give in yet. There is a case to be made.

[kermit]

While I understand the state's point of view on transit funding in Charlotte (as outlined in the viewpoint article), I stick by my assertion that the state is shooting itself in the foot with its insistance that the streetcar not be locally financed outside the transit tax.

 

I'll offer an analogy to illustrate the state's inconsistency: Roads are generally viewed as an economic development tool (although, like development around the streetcar, that is also subject to debate). The state is paying for a substantial portion of 485 and the city wants to pay for new access roads to the NS intermodal terminal at the airport through the CIP. Why isn't the state threatening to pull its 485 contributions over this? I assume that the state supports both expenditures  since it wants to realize the economic benefits for both projects. I still can't see why is the state (especially when led by McCrory!) has a different perspective with regard to transit (BLE/Streetcar) investments.

 

I would hope that the goal of any state government (regardless of partisan leaning) is to facilitate development which improves the lives of North Carolinians. I simply don't understand what they gain from telling Charlotte not to self-finance a piece of infrastructure which will likely improve the lives of a few/some/many of its residents.

Edited February 6, 2013 by kermit

[thetrick]

While I understand the state's point of view on transit funding in Charlotte (as outlined in the viewpoint article), I stick by my assertion that the state is shooting itself in the foot with its insistance that the streetcar not be locally financed outside the transit tax.

 

I'll offer an analogy to illustrate the state's inconsistency: Roads are generally viewed as an economic development tool (although, like development around the streetcar, that is also subject to debate). The state is paying for a substantial portion of 485 and the city wants to pay for new access roads to the NS intermodal terminal at the airport through the CIP. Why isn't the state threatening to pull its 485 contributions over this? I assume that the state supports both expenditures  since it wants to realize the economic benefits for both projects. I still can't see why is the state (especially when led by McCrory!) has a different perspective with regard to transit (BLE/Streetcar) investments.

 

I would hope that the goal of any state government (regardless of partisan leaning) is to facilitate development which improves the lives of North Carolinians. I simply don't understand what they gain from telling Charlotte not to self-finance a piece of infrastructure which will likely improve the lives of a few/some/many of its residents.

 

I think the difference is that the perceived value of the streetcar project is (as others have said) "dubious at best".  While the value of an access road to an industrial park is well understood by the parties involved. Plus the real issue here is side stepping the MTC, which was put in place to prioritize and vet projects.

 

I have no idea why Foxx is so unyielding on this. If he endangers the BLE I (democrat) will gladly contribute to anyone that might unseat him. But I think damage to his carrier has already been done.

 

TH

[Urbanity]

^^^All arguments pro or against what Foxx or McCrory are doing - If the state withholds BLE funding I assure you that Foxx isn't the one who will look bad.   

[tozmervo]

How legally biding is the State FGA? 

[kermit]

^ the impression I had was that the state is locked in to paying its $299 million share, however there is wiggle room about when exactly they pay it. I believe that the state can essentially delay payment as long as it wants.

 

-- I am not a lawyer nor am I an expert on FFGAs --

[cltbwimob]

I think the difference is that the perceived value of the streetcar project is (as others have said) "dubious at best".  While the value of an access road to an industrial park is well understood by the parties involved. Plus the real issue here is side stepping the MTC, which was put in place to prioritize and vet projects.

 

I have no idea why Foxx is so unyielding on this. If he endangers the BLE I (democrat) will gladly contribute to anyone that might unseat him. But I think damage to his carrier has already been done.

 

TH

Agreed. I think the big issue here is the side stepping of the MTC. The state legislators have said as much. Foxx should just realize that he will lose this fight, and possibly lose funding for the most important transit project of the next 25 years, and for what??? A 2.5 mile streetcar extension that travels through primarily affluent areas that exhibit little to no need for redevelopment? Give it up Mr. Mayor. Your pet project may now hurt the entire region at large if you lose money for the BLE.

Edited February 8, 2013 by cltbwimob

[15895]

^ sounds like Republican talking points. Im not buying their rhetoric. Both lines are needed. McCrory made this an "either, or" debate; Not Foxx.

I support Foxx 100% and I pray this line gets passed after their retreat and be the success that it will be. And I hope Foxx gets the praise he deserves one day.

Edited February 8, 2013 by AirNostrumMAD

[southslider]

The same 6-5 Council won't budge.

[ajfunder]

I respect Foxx for fighting for a project he believes will transform the East and West neighborhoods (I believe it will to). The streetcar will not be built for decades if we don't start finding alternative ways to fund it, and frankly east and west Charlotte seems to have been on the waiting list for far to long (dont live in either area).If it comes down to it, the BLE is more important, but IMHO the state has no right to tell Charlotte what it can and can't self finance with its own funds.

Alex

[cltbwimob]

^ sounds like Republican talking points. Im not buying their rhetoric. Both lines are needed. McCrory made this an "either, or" debate; Not Foxx.

I support Foxx 100% and I pray this line gets passed after their retreat and be the success that it will be. And I hope Foxx gets the praise he deserves one day.

Foxx is out-gunned in this fight 100%. The 4 people who wrote Foxx the letter serve on the various finance and transportation committees in the state, not mentioning the governor and his budget director. They hold the key to the vault, not Foxx, and by Foxx taking the hard line, he is going to drag the whole city down with him. You may be able to make the case that they [the state] are not fighting fair. But at some point you must realize that fighting is not always fair, and sometimes the best thing to do is to bug out rather than push a bad position like Foxx is. He is powerless to stop them if they choose to pull funding for the BLE.

Aside from the fact that Foxx will lose this fight, how can you not believe their rhetoric? Ever since the GOP has been in control of the legislature, they have tried to take away funding from the BLE. The first budgetary cycle in 2011 they just simply omitted it from the budget, and in 2012, they tried to lump it with highway funds where it would have to compete on the state level for general transportation funds. They have been dying to do this, but were unsuccessful because they had no real justification. They may now have the justification if Foxx does not back down. And they do have a point...Charlotte is trying to provide [or has already committed to] the Panthers with $125M, Streetcar with $119M, the Knights with $8M, Bojangles Colisseum with $25M. From the state's viewpoint, the sum dollar amount just in pet projects in Charlotte is almost the equivalent of the state FFGA for the BLE. If we have that kind of money to fund those projects, then from the state's viewpoint, we should also be able to fund our own rail line.

And I would like to know what case there is to be made in favor of this 2.5 mile extension, especially the case that would cause someone to risk funding for a 10 mile light rail line.

-It will not revitalize any area. It will only travel through downtown and wealthy inner ring neighborhoods. The areas with redevelopment potential, if streetcar can even live up to it's propagandized economic potential, exists mostly beyond the geographical scope of the 2.5 mile extension.

-It operates like a bus, a bus that can not reroute itself around traffic or stalled vehicles. I just saw a video a few days ago in which a streetcar was held up for over an hour just waiting on a tow truck to move a car that was blocking it's path because the car was parallel parked incorrectly. A bus could have easily gone around the car.

-It is exponentially more expensive than a bus

-It will be slow, with heavy vehicles and short distances between stops, the laws of physics will not allow it to be even moderately fast. (F=m*a, F=m*dv/dt, etc) I will stop throwing out equations before I go full nerd.

I know people think it may be an economic tool, but should we really be making transit decisions based solely on economic development potential? In a Transit-Land Use plan, modes of transit should be considered for their ability to promote use of transportation and redevelopment of property. If you marginalize the transit benefit, you will likely garner poor economic returns, because the land use portion of the plan depends very much on the quality of the mode of transit. Streetcar has the lowest ridership potential of any major transit mode in existence on a passenger per hour capability basis...even lower than a bus route. I know people like to think this could be a European style tram with some dedicated ROW, but that has not received a mention from anyone trying to implement this line. I know some people believe, like Councilmember John Autry, in the permanence of the rails, and thereby think/imply that a bus may not exist on the Beatties and Central corridors someday. When it comes to the project in question, it's hard for me to even fathom the lack of thought that went into making that argument.

I am an ardent supporter of rail transit, and I am very skeptical of this line. Even the mayor and the most ardent supporters on the council have arguments that are weak, unconvincing, and easily dismissed. Foxx would do well to bow out of this fight. He can not win this debate intellectually, and he WILL NOT win the fight with those who control the purse strings. If it is so important, it can wait. It can at least wait until there is a new legislature in place, or the BLE gets built, whichever comes first.

Edited February 8, 2013 by cltbwimob

[nowensone]

Can't disagree.  Others have posted numbers that support the StreetCar expenditure, and while substantial, it is not up for debate IMO when we have federal funds approved and earmarked for the BLE.  Its as simple as that for me, forget the state [for the sake or argument], and certainly Foxx's tantrum, we have Federal funds, don't eff it up, get it started before the US budgetary situation makes it impossible to collect because this has been delayed.  I'd support removing Foxx over this, this is important.

[Norm2]

The streetcar might be extended once the blue line finishes construction I think. I found it interesting how Foxx brought in the mayor of Atlanta to discuss the streetcar in that city. Atlanta build their streetcar without raising property taxes, but rather pooled money from various places. I would be interested to know what other council now think after hearing ATL's mayor speak.

[Urbanity]

^Didn't Atlanta also get Federal Funds for their streetcar?

Edit:  I just read the CBJ recap of Day 1 of the City Council's Budget retreat and I got to say this doesn't look good for the streetcar, or the CIP, or the city, or the...

Edited February 8, 2013 by Urbanity

[nowensone]

Wow.  And $580 million at stake.  And $290 million at stake.  And big kids?  Perhaps that is the problem, big kids are still kids, aim a little higher Foxx.  Nothing worse than adults who act like children.

[15895]

Wow.  And $580 million at stake.  And $290 million at stake.  And big kids?  Perhaps that is the problem, big kids are still kids, aim a little higher Foxx.  Nothing worse than adults who act like children.

 

 

It's just a phrase...

[dubone]

Well, I know that TIGER stimulus funding did help streetcars because they had smaller scales and could be done more quickly.  I wonder, though, whether that trend would continue in the form of New Starts or Small Starts funding for the regular process.   Certainly if the feds funded our starter line, it is seen as a reasonable project would be willing to fund an extension.  The full process might warrant a request for a longer segment, which then puts the local and state portions in question, but perhaps it is still worth it to put a small starts request for a more modest extension options:

• 2.5 mile extension to French St in west to Sunnyside Ave in east, proposed during CIP
• 2.0 miles with a 1.5 mile extension to Five Points in West End and .5 mile extension to Sunnyside Ave in east
• 1.5 miles with a 1 mile extension to Irwin/J&W Way in west and .5 mile extension to Sunnyside Ave in east
• 1.0 miles to Irwin/J&W Way only
• .6 miles to Wilkes/Gateway Station only

There is no question that the FTA is willing to fund streetcars, so we should be talking more about how to leverage those grants and finding the right length of line in order to get the right type of funding for it.     It is unlikely this will or should ever get all the way to a dead and closed mall (Eastland), but it is every bit reasonable to extend it a mile or two to connect to inner city neighborhoods that are densifying and would benefit from a fixed guideway connection to downtown.

[atlrvr]

That's the thing....there is no voter base (and therefore little politcal) interest in running a streetcar that far (to Eastland) which the community at large views as an albatross in a crime-ridden area far from the city core where dense new development is likely to occur. 

 

I said it about a month ago, but at the risk of repetition, if the city would use streetcar what it is best suited for, which is serving very dense areas with stops that are several blocks apart, and not try to make it LRT that runs slowly in the street, then I would think the public would be more receptive.

 

I think the $119M is roughly all that needs to be built.  If the city had marketed it as 100% construction of an entire line serving the densest and most heavily traveled transit corridor in the city could be built for roughly $125MM in total cost, which is 10% of what the BLE will cost, AND be done in 2 years, then I think it would have been received differently.  The prospect that this thing will take 10 years or more to build as proposed and over Half-Billion dollars, and not be any faster than the current bus just doesn't make it seem like a pressing need (and it;s not).

[kermit]

The FTA has changed its small starts program to reduce emphasis on travel time savings against alternatives and increase emphasis on "anticipated

benefits to human health, energy use, air quality and safety" as well as greater emphasis on economic development.

 

While federal funding for the streetcar remains a -long- shot, these changes may make federal funds for streetcar expansion a possibility.

 

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/prdailynews/news.asp?id=34816

 

Incremental expansion of the streetcar really does seem like the right way to go. The FTA has revised its small starts guidelines to be more streetcar friendly and the political calculus for fed funding of the streetcar is pretty compelling (NC's swing state status combined with the solidly tea-party controlled state government). Unfortunately any federal funding will require a local match so that money will still have to be found somewhere. I wonder if there is any source of funds that McCrory would 'approve of'?

 

Fantasy issues aside, I am amazed by how badly Foxx bungled this.

Edited February 8, 2013 by kermit

[kermit]

Mary Newsome has a piece at Plan Charlotte on the streetcar and its role in Charlotte's future growth.

 

http://plancharlotte.org/story/charlotte-city-council-streetcar-mccrory-foxx

 

Basically, now that annexation has come to an end Charlotte needs to find ways to densify.

[carolinagarnet]

Since Reed brought it up, does the city have any land that it is holding as an investment or that it may sell off in the distant future (apart from Eastland)?

[carolinagarnet]

Mary Newsome has a piece at Plan Charlotte on the streetcar and its role in Charlotte's future growth.

 

http://plancharlotte.org/story/charlotte-city-council-streetcar-mccrory-foxx

 

Basically, now that annexation has come to an end Charlotte needs to find ways to densify.

 

Just read this. Mary brings up a good point: if Charlotte has to wait to build the streetcar until non-property tax revenue is available, it may spur a South End-like building boom that the city may not be able to support in the next few years anyway. Between the BLE and the streetcar, there is plenty of developable land at the moment that the city probably doesn't need another catalyst within the next ten years, at least from an economic development perspective. If it takes 10-15 years to free up enough capital for the line to be built out to Rosa Parks, then maybe that will build enough demand for housing for another huge building spree, this time in North Charlotte.