Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[Norm2]

Andy Dulin has spear headed the fight against the streetcar and has rallied the other city council members around him. I hope he does not get re-elected.

[ajfunder]

Aren't there two developments on the books near Presby. and one near Travis avenue. There is also the project near the Pancake House and Autobell. Not to mention CPCC students. I could see the starter project being a free service because of its short distance. If so, I think it will have a nice ridership for such a short line.

Edited June 23, 2012 by ajfunder

[kermit]

Barring a veto of the budget it appears that the streetcar extension is dead.

The plot thickens....

Charlotte Mayor Anthony Foxx vetoed a budget proposal Monday that would have raised the property tax by 2.41 cents, saying the budget doesn’t do enough for the city.

http://www.charlotte...t-proposal.html

Edited June 25, 2012 by kermit

[ajfunder]

I have been out of town for a month. I haven't missed anything have I......? I found an article saying that Charlotte has removed the 12 million in funding for the starter line. Is this just a anti streetcar person with wishful thinking getting the extension confused with the starter project or is the starter project really dead? http://www.lakenorma...d-for-i-77.html I also read something about Charlotte wanting to use hotel and rental car taxes to build more of the line, how feasible is this option. Although I support the starter project, I think the streetcar needs to at least be extended to Johnson C. Smith to be successful and for people to see the benifit. The streetcar will also use heritage equipment until that extension, although quaint, it will create more "toy" talk and outdated technology talk until modern ones go into service.

[southslider]

^The Starter Project (CTC to Presby) is still very much alive. Utility work can begin as soon as that big event the President is attending wraps up next month.

The only thing Council rejected was a capital plan that included $120 million for expansion of Streetcar beyond the Starter Project, going from CTC to JCSU, as well as Presby to Central/Hawthorne.

[ah59396]

^ That article is so poorly written it's almost silly.

[ajfunder]

That's what I thought but it did give me a little scare.

[ajfunder]

Has anyone seen the WBTV news stories about the streetcar being put back on the table in the last day. It is disgusting to see how misinformed the story is. They claim that the streetcar project is completely dead and the only way we will see a streetcar is if we build the "controversial" (just using that word in every article about the project makes it even more controversial) and expensive $119 million dollar capital project. They interview a woman who owns a shop on Elizabeth and she says how she is angry they put in the tracks but won't finish the project. If the shop keeper and WBTV had done any basic research, they of course would know that there is a project set to break ground in December called the streetcar starter project that will activate the tracks on Elizabeth by 2015. They also don't seem to understand that the starter project even exists and they definetly don't understand what the $119 million dollars in the capital program will do, which is extend the line to 4 miles. http://www.wbtv.com/...ce-in-charlotte "The $119 million streetcar project could become a reality, despite its defeat by the Charlotte City Council over the summer." it wasn't defeated, just shelved for later discussion. It should be no suprise that it will be discussed again this fall.

It will be funny to see how WBTV reports the groundbreaking of the streetcar starter project in a few months when they learn that the streetcar is not in fact dead but under construction, even without the capital program. Charlotte really has some terrible news stations.

Edited September 13, 2012 by ajfunder

[dubone]

TV news often has significant factual errors. Even the Observer is starting to being less reliable over time.

I was wondering when the starter project would start, but I did know they were waiting until after DNC.

[ajfunder]

Construction is slated to start in December with a final public meeting in November.

[New Name]

My memory says they said they'd start in December....

[southslider]

^{Fox Charlotte reported the story a bit more accurately last night. Evidently, Mayor Foxx is still pushing the "Streetcar 2.5" extension that was in the failed Capital Investment Plan, by suggesting it still go in the next round of bond projects.}

^{Granted, Streetcar would easily have higher return on investment than most projects in the prior, failed bond package. Still, it can't politically happen with a City-wide tax increase, as that breaks the promise that the half-cent County-wide sales tax would ultimately cover all transit projects.}

^{Unfortunately, any bond package now revived by Council will have to go before voters the same year (2013) Council members do. So now, it becomes even harder for Council to find the votes, especially if it involves a tax increase. And ultimately, since Council failed to seize this year's opportunity to slightly raise City taxes at an effective wash equal to the County's slight decrease, any tax discussions will truly involve an increase felt by citizens.}

^{Just as Congress failed to reach a grand bargain of 2.5 times the spending cuts for every dollar in new revenue, our Mayor failed to reach a bargain with Barnes on a tax-neutral bond package. And so now, Charlotte faces its own "fiscal cliff."}

[dubone]

It is sort of strange that the original trolley line from 9th to Atherton was $25m or so total, and that turned into a highly successful 10 mile (soon to be 20 mile) light rail line.

Streetcar does not have the dedicated right of way, so many auto-oriented people think of it as something to be in their way rather than something that will add to the transportation infrastructure of the city. However most people do not realize the bus routes on Central, Trade, and Beatties Ford are already extremely high in riders, so a streetcar line on those corridors would actually rival the light rail.

The only thing that might allow the Mayor to get by with reviving the discussion of a tax increase is that property tax increases are not technically felt until later in the year when tax bills are due or even later when the escrow is retallied for the following year. Hurrying up and making it a wash as soon as possibility would allow those increases to go in without most homeowners having any change to their escrow withholding, and then would be unfelt.

I really wish they would find additional revenue ideas to make the streetcar happen versus outright property taxes, such as maybe half general taxes, and the other half with TIF or a small overlay tax on the corridor. I know they would be more complex, but as it stands, it too large a pill to swallow.

Not to mention, our transit system is failing the city by catering too much to suburban interests that the streetcar gets abandoned despite having significantly higher projected ridership per dollar than the Red line.

[kermit]

The Observer has a somewhat thorough (for them) article on the mayor pushing discussing on modifications of May's capital plan.

Part of the discussion sounds like Foxx is doing his best to get the post-DNC buzz translated into investment. A second feature of the article involves discussion of alternative funding for the streetcar. These strategies under discussion include using occupancy taxes (pitching the streetcar as a tourism project) and special assessment districts.

Clearly the discussion has only just begun, but I am encouraged that they are thinking about alternative funding strategies for the streetcar.

[dubone]

It is a considerably smart narrative for the mayor to use to drum up support. We would NEVER have been able to handle the DNC or anything close with Charlotte's infrastructure of a 10-15 years ago. The city managed to invest in good urban improvements and "transformative" projects that were controversial, but went a very long way to bringing the city to the next level. Without the Blue line and the arena, it is obvious that the city would be far behind what it is now.

The streetcar, greenway, and connectivity that were included in the capital plan were all hard sells to the status-quo-loving suburbanites. However, they all go a long way to improving the quality of life in this city as we grow.

I wish the mayor well as he fixes the political problems. But seriously, if we have a city council that thinks that the right path ahead is to do nothing, then we need to vote in new representation.

[kermit]

Renewed capital budget discussions continue to single out the streetcar extension as the primary sticking point. The Observer article makes it sound like the DNC-infrastructure success meme has already been abandoned.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/09/27/3561495/new-budget-talks-still-stuck-on.html

At least they are considering alternative funding approaches for it (such as increasing the downtown MSD tax used to fund CCCP). TIF was dismissed as havng little potential in already dense downtown -- While I understand the political necessity of the Beatties Ford extension I think their is -serious- development (and therefore TIF) potential on the Hawthorne-Plaza portion of the route (which I know is not part of this proposal).

[dubone]

I am very much for MSD increments as long as it is over the neighborhoods targeted for the streetcar. I would like to see them opening their minds to options.

I am sure there are options both for cost cutting (how is it possible that it costs so much per mile?), some hyper-local taxation, some general funding, and hopefully room for federal grants like what helped with the starter project.

[southslider]

I am very much for MSD increments as long as it is over the neighborhoods targeted for the streetcar.

As someone living off Central, I wouldn't support an MSD with higher taxes unless there was firm commitment to BUILD within 5 years. Frankly, as much as the tax base went up the past few years (mine DOUBLED from 2003 to 2011) along the corridor, not using TIF was a greatly missed opportunity. But now, if ADDITIONAL development is truly the fruits of streetcar, then still use TIF for ADDITIONAL tax base. NOT a higher tax rate for existing development.

[dubone]

But building streetcar is not the ONLY to support growth, but also the existing residents.

I think they should take a broader approach to funding for the streetcar. Some TIF, some MSD, some general property taxes, and seriously why is CATS paying for AT LEAST the section between CTC and Gateway station, as that is a critical solution to a ridiculous gap in their transit plan.

$119m locally funded could also probably be leveraged with the FTA as the 50 or 60% of a ~$200m projection that extended the streetcar to (probably) Briar Creek rather than just Sunnyside. The feds are not streetcar averse, it is the local MTC that is, because the suburban representatives have such a significant weight on the board.

All this said, even though the streetcar is a pet project of mine because I would use it so much if it were built, I would still like to see the city leaders revive all of the other less controversial projects as a high priority. If the compromise or alternate funding strategy for the streetcar cannot be found, then I'd say take it out or at least trim the distance covered until the price tag is more tenable. Cutting the extension in half to 1 mile would take it to Irwin Ave in Gateway Village, which is not ideal because it doesn't include the west end or Plaza-Midwood, would be better than having no extension because of the political sticker shock.

[southslider]

But building streetcar is not ONLY to support growth, but also the existing residents.

As a daily bus rider, I don't need a cute trolley to switch my commute to transit. But as the #9-Central corridor goes, I'll admit that this in-town, transit-choice commuter is more of an exception. Still, the riders, or "residents," most reliant on transit live nowhere near where streetcar would even be initally built.

Currently, most of the ridership on the #9 bus is beyond Briar Creek, which not surprisingly, is also where there are many more affordable apartments. So sure, building streetcar to just The Plaza (or Hawthorne per failed CIP) may attract some new yuppies not currently grabbing the already frequent buses going through Midwood on their way to the CTC. But it would be very dishonest to claim that streetcar would help existing riders, when the bulk of today's bus ridership is nowhere near the early phases of the proposed project.

[DEnd]

Currently, most of the ridership on the #9 bus is beyond Briar Creek, which not surprisingly, is also where there are many more affordable apartments. So sure, building streetcar to just The Plaza (or Hawthorne per failed CIP) may attract some new yuppies not currently grabbing the already frequent buses going through Midwood on their way to the CTC. But it would be very dishonest to claim that streetcar would help existing riders, when the bulk of today's bus ridership is nowhere near the early phases of the proposed project.

A not unsubstantial portion of the #9 ridership is due to the Social Security office. BTW if you are ever there and need to use the restroom or the building catches on fire and you need to make a speedy escape from the waiting room you can thank me, LOL. Anyway my point being that due to current ridership, and population densities the route would need to be extended to somewere past Harris on Albemarle rd. to really be effective. And that will not likely happen anytime soon. The next terminus point for the street car needs to be Johnson C. Smith. That school needs a strong physical and symbolic connection to the business center for it to thrive, and it needed it yesterday. That section is more important than the starter section and both have been delayed too long.

[dubone]

I had been under the impression that once the line was expanded beyond the starter line that they would be purchasing standard modern streetcar trams rather than limiting to only the Gomaco replica trolleys.

Certainly the added capacity, smoothness of ride, and permanence of the line draws far more riders, poor, yuppy, and otherwise. There were buses that ran down South Blvd all along, but that bus route didn't spur revitalization of South End into a booming construction zone of apartments. Nor did those buses have even a fraction of what the Lynx has in ridership. Streetcar is not nearly as attractive as light rail in dedicated right of way, but it is far more so than simple bus routes.

I agree that getting the line out past Briar Creek is important for pulling in riders from the lower middle class apartment complexes out there, but getting the line in place in the core does help to support Blue riders transfering and distributing to the West End, Third Ward, Gateway, 2nd Ward/Gov District, Elizabeth, Midtown, Midwood, and beyond.

For whatever reason, buses get primarily poor riders out of necessity, but rail infrastructure tends to pull in a more economically diverse cross-section of society. Tons of people I know would 'hop on' the streetcar for a trip, but would never get on a bus. It is just the way it is. Maybe if Mr Rogers had used a bus to the Neighborhood of Make-Believe, our society would be different.

[southslider]

^Maybe if bus stops were more than just a sign on a pole somewhere lost along a road, then our society would be different.

Make more bus stops like Sprinter stops, and you would see more total riders and greater socioeconomic diversity.

Want capacity? Buy articulated buses.

Want development? Already happening without streetcar, especially to the east of the starter project-- Elizabeth Square apartments, Metro 808 apartments, 1425 The Nook apartments (beside DQ), The Edison apartments (Pecan/Commonwealth), Central 21 condos, Plaza Vu condos, the new Harris Teeter, and many recent businesses on or just off Central Avenue, like Fern, Smokehouse, Soul and Krazy Fish.

In fact, where is development not happening despite a ripe market? Why, the very blocks around the starter project. And since that same developer (Grubb) continues to build even easy-to-finance apartments elsewhere in Charlotte (Morrison in South Park), it doens't look like streetcar is all that successful at generating development. And if streetcar can't compete with other technologies for transit benefits, then it's very sad when it can't even make a visible difference in development.

Finally, the Creative Loafing just awarded Streetcar the pitiful distinction as the Worst Expense of Taxpayers' Dollars. When even Charlotte's more liberal publications are calling something wasteful, there is little hope of changing public opinion.

[dubone]

If technical reasons for doing the streetcar are low enough, and you do back up your arguments well, then absolutely the city and CATS should work on improving the high ridership corridors like Central and Beatties Ford with service like the Sprinter. In fact, it can theoretically be a modular improvement compatible with streetcar, building the streetscape, stations, and otherwise. Track mileage could be then added over time.

Regardless, if CATS does not believe in streetcar as a viable transit technology, then they need to figure out what OTHERWISE they are going to do with the east, southeast, west, and northwest corridors of this city. They gave up the Independence corridor right of way for anything other than express buses mixing with cars in a HOT lane because of a study that pitched streetcar. But then they did nothing to push that streetcar idea at all. I recognize MTC is primarily suburban, but there is still some respect in this world for reasonable projects that are necessary. I know they push the red line, despite high hurdles, because of the significant support by the towns, but for our transit agency to abandon the entire east and west quadrants of the city for mass transit despite high baseline transit ridership support is unconscionable.

CATS invented this streetcar line with all their consultants and planners and leadership. They invented the transit line in the median of US74 median with all their consultants and planners and leadership. If those ideas have failed the test of time, then new ideas need to be invented. If the feds like billion dollar protected right of way light rail systems, then a path should be determined for one that can serve the east and the west. The Norfolk-Southern and CSX corridors certainly would be reasonable choices for that type of system, but if N. Tryon can get a median transit corridor, so could Central or Monroe. Even if they are not affordable now, they may be more affordable than a go-it-alone streetcar that cannot find enough support, and will eventually be affordable to CATS.

Worst Expense of Taxpayers' Dollars doesn't go to the Red Line despite its ridiculous 4k projected daily riders because conventional wisdom is that it is needed to alleviate all the LKN traffic. But a streetcar with the same price tag but 4-5x the projected daily riders gets slammed not because of facts and logic, but because it has been virtually abandoned by our city's transit leadership.

[dubone]

The CBJ informal web poll has 75% against the streetcar. I do wonder whether people realize that it is planned to be more like this than the old trolleys we had in town.

I have been wondering about something, especially with the talk of the East Blvd road diet. Is it not possible to give the streetcars their own dedicated median in as many places as possible, as it was done with the old streetcars on East Blvd, Queens, Plaza, etc.? Certainly they can run in mixed traffic where necessary, but why not couple the streetcar with a road diet and simply grant more of street cross section to the mass transit option, even if it is at the expense of bike lanes and street parking. At the end of the day, the mass transit is going to be serving a far larger population, and the dedicated medians would help make it faster than the buses.

If road diet streetscape projects have merit because of the multimodal improvements in usability of the street, then they also would benefit from a dedicated transit lane serving buses and streetcars. It is not always necessary or beneficial, but in certain cases, it would seem to be a good choice.