Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[orulz]

This may have been asked but the little loop on the streetcar alignment where it turns onto Central Avenue, is that to serve an institution or to avoid an at grade crossing with the CSX on Central. If it is because of the railroad crossing, are streetcars not allowed to cross an active freight line at grade level, is it a request by CSX, or is it a safety descion made by the city?

Doubtless it's a requirement imposed by CSX. Railroads pretty much get to control any changes made to their crossings.

I believe there is only one place in the US, somewhere in Philadelphia, where a streetcar line crosses a mainline railroad at-grade. Diamonds, the metal pieces that join the rails from the four directions, have to be custom-manufactured. They also wear quickly and need to be replaced often (far more often than rails) and are therefore expensive to maintain.

[kermit]

Sounds like the public vote on bonds for the streetcar extension will likely occur this November.

Ugh, I don't know that I can take another ugly transit fight, I still haven't recovered from the transit tax repeal refferendum in 2007. At least have a positive example of rail transit to hold up to voters this time.

http://www.bizjourna...-05-18&page=all

Edited May 18, 2012 by kermit

[ajfunder]

These photoshopped pictures with the streetcar are very cool. I can't wait until 2015 when the first segment opens and if this 2.5 mile extension passes this streetcar will become heavily used for travel uptown. What are the chances the streetcar extension passes? Charlotte is about to enter a huge era in transportation expansion and I hope the streetcar extension can join the list along with the Blue Line extension, Red Line (I'm still hopeful), NC railroad improvements, Gateway Station, the new intermodal facility, airport expansion, I-485 completion, Monroe Bypass, and the Garden Parkway as well as adding capacity to highways around the city.

The Buisness Journal had another very good article on the streetcar but I think you have to be a subscriber to read the whole story.

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/print-edition/2012/05/18/streetcar-expansion-enjoying-smooth.html

[ajfunder]

Heres a great PDF of the presentation at the public meeting last night, it includes renderings.

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/growthstrategy/Documents/2012-05-17%20SSP%20Public%20Meeting%20no%202%20FINAL.pdf

[ah59396]

^ That looks fantastic. I'm very excited about this.

[dubone]

It frustrates the heck out of me that CATS disses on the streetcar so much. It's fair enough that it is not able to be funded by the transit tax, as that is just a reality of the recession and the de-leveraging hangover. But surely they can at least freaking update that part of their website with the latest information.

[dubone]

While it is still uncertain, given the need to pass a bond vote and approval of the tax rate increase (both somewhat likely), I am very glad that the city included the core part of the streetcar project in the budget.

I really would have liked to see them at least leverage state funds for the project like the Red Line is still doing, and CATS funds, as this is part of their 2030 plan. If that $119m were matched or leveraged up, a longer segment of the route could be completed. Currently they are targeting 40% completion after the city bond project, but why not 50 or 60% with CATS money and/or state money.

At minimum, for economic growth, it should have at least be extended to Barnhardt and even better would have been Plaza so that some additional urbanization projects can happen in Plaza-Midwood. The Sunnyside stop is the closest to get it to serve Plaza-Midwood, but it is already pretty much developed at that stop area. Barnhardt has growth potential, as do other parcels in the heart of Plaza-Midwood that this project could have helped to spur along.

Overall it feels like a missed opportunity to have the extension done 100% by city funds. Especially considering the willingness of the federal government to respond to matching fund-type transit requests. Perhaps, though, within the coming years other grants will come up and we can still count this and end up with a longer streetcar line that can help reach the transitional area of Central and transform it.

60% would get it to Morningside where the massive failed project leveled the buildings and left nothing replacing that.

[ajfunder]

I may have missed this, but I assume some modern streetcars will be needed for the extension project. Or will the Gomaco cars handle the proposed extension to the starter project. Although I am looking forward to the modern streetcars, the Gomaco cars are very beautiful replica's and I wouldn't want to see them go to waste once the modern streetcar's arrive farther down the road.

Also, Is the plan to run heritage trolleys over the P&N trackage uptown near BofA stadium still on the table? I remember seeing that Wells Fargo made some sort of donation to that project.

[dubone]

Yeah, there is not a lot of information, but it is an almost certainty that when they get to the 4 mi line with this extension that they will need the higher capacity cars. It seems possible that they would continue to run the Gomaco trolleys in the mix, as they are more compatible with a streetcar line than the Lynx blue line.

[ah59396]

Not sure where to put this, but the proposed city budget was voted down 6-5, which included $119 million in streetcar funding. I must say, I'm very surprised.

[Sabaidee]

The budget process has gotten too overly political, some council members are trying to save their seats after a very vocal opposition from South Charlotte residents even though they said they supported the streetcar project during the initial budget process.

[ajfunder]

If the streetcar is ever going to be really successful it really needs to be expanded at least to Johnson C. Smith. Is there any other way for the project to be funded in the next few years?

[kermit]

The defeated budget priced the streetcar at roughly $47 million per mile so its time to get creative:

Perhaps about 25% of that could be generated via a TIF?

Perhaps a municipal service district at Central and Plaza?

Perhaps some federal TIGER cash for the CTC to Gateway link? (politics permitting)

Perhaps some (as yet non-existant) HUD grants for TOD urban redevelopment on Beatties Ford?

Perhaps mega-redevelopments at Morningside and Barnhardt and the giant parking lot on Central between Pecan and the CSX could be convinced to make some 'donations"? (didn't Crossland pay for the rails currently installed on Elizabeth?) (Eastland is too far-fetched to even mention)

Perhaps the public will see the value of the starter segment and suddenly be willing to pay to complete the streetcar????

[dubone]

I still am scratching my head as to why it costs so much. I know some of it was for overall costs that skew the per mile, like the vehicles and the maintenance yard, but still, that is a really high per mile figure. I don't get why it can't be cheaper to put some freaking tracks into the ground.

[ajfunder]

Streetcar's cost about 1.5-2.5 million apiece, it was never said if more cars would have been purchased but I would guess that 9 million was for new vehicles.

[HopHead]

The Streetcar is WAY too expensive for something that only goes a few miles IMO. Maybe I just don't know enough about it, but I don't understand the need for this expense. I'm pro-transit... just not streetcar transit. I bet if City Council took that money out, the budget would've gotten the vote it needed to pass.

[southslider]

If Barnes and Howard can build a new consensus, then a Mayoral veto appears unlikely. The emerging compromise, as voiced by Howard at the last Council meeting, is a smaller tax increase that effectively is net-neutral, given the County's tax rate cut.

Edited June 13, 2012 by southslider

[ah59396]

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm actually glad it was voted down.

[southslider]

Perhaps about 25% of that could be generated via a TIF?

If only a TIF had been in place prior to the 2003-2011 revaluation. Now, it's a lot smaller increment to cover the cost.

Perhaps a municipal service district at Central and Plaza?

Except the CIP project ended at Hawthorne and Sunnyside.

Perhaps some federal TIGER cash for the CTC to Gateway link? (politics permitting)

In these politically volatile times, Charlotte will be blessed to still get a FFGA for the BLE.

Perhaps some (as yet non-existant) HUD grants for TOD urban redevelopment on Beatties Ford?

The CIP project ends at JCSU, but would pass some CHA land on the way there.

Perhaps mega-redevelopments at Morningside and Barnhardt and the giant parking lot on Central between Pecan and the CSX could be convinced to make some 'donations"?

Again, the CIP project ends at Hawthorne and Central. Still, if innovative financing is to now be used, then sure, go as far East as development can pay for the line. However, getting under, over, or around the CSX line is a huge cost, as well as getting over Independence.

[ajfunder]

A little off topic but still related to Charlotte streetcars. Can someone direct me to map of Charlottes original streetcar network. I have been trying to find one but have not found one. I know the general route but have never seen a good map of the original system.

[dubone]

http://gis.mecklenbu...rlotte_1935.jpg

There is the 1935 map. The dashed lines show the streetcar routes.

Then twenty years later, vanished:

http://gis.mecklenbu...tte_NC_1954.jpg

Here

The streetcars are the dashed lines on the maps.

[gamecocksfan]

I attendend the press confernce yesterday at Johnson C Smith and think that Dr. Carter ( The President) did a great job of explaining why the Streetcar will be a succesful cataylist for developing the Westside Corridor. He pointed out that the main reason that JCSU agreed to start growing outside of its gates was due to the promised streetcar. He futher stated that City Councilmembers that say that the development would not equal the cost are wrong. JCSU has already spent or in the process of investing 23 million to build along the streetcar line. The school has alrready completed building the Arts Factory, in the process of building new dorms, a cafeteria and new bookstore. I plan to attend the next City Council meeting and wish that other supporters will show up to show support. I have also seen that even though Family Dollar may not be a major project, they built a brand new store on Beattis Ford and hope that maybe the Food Lion will be renovated. There is oppritunity to transform the westside with the Streetcar as the catylist, but I think people need to be informed of its benifits.

[kermit]

Barring a veto of the budget it appears that the streetcar extension is dead.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/22/3335659/city-council-bloc-has-votes-to.html

[nonillogical]

So we still get the almost laughably short starter line from CTC to Presby, correct? It will be nice to see something moving, but its almost too short to have any chance of proving its worth to the skeptics.

[kermit]

So we still get the almost laughably short starter line from CTC to Presby, correct? It will be nice to see something moving, but its almost too short to have any chance of proving its worth to the skeptics.

yes, the section from CTC to Presby should begin construction in December, its construction was unrelated to these budget discussions.

Perhaps the short section will surprise us with its ability to catalyze development.