Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[DH17]

Unfortunately saw a motorbike (one of the types that rides in big groups around town without any mufflers and doing wheelies) rider try to use the Streetcar lane today to pass someone. His wheel got stuck in the track and he wiped out. Fortunately he was wearing a helmet and EMS was there within 5 mins, but scary to watch in person.

[nakers2]

On 2/28/2021 at 7:47 PM, DH17 said:

Unfortunately saw a motorbike (one of the types that rides in big groups around town without any mufflers and doing wheelies) rider try to use the Streetcar lane today to pass someone. His wheel got stuck in the track and he wiped out. Fortunately he was wearing a helmet and EMS was there within 5 mins, but scary to watch in person.

 

[NYtoCLT]

They're tearing up the platform at Hawthorne and 8th.  Must not have been built correctly because they just finished jackhammering the ramps.

[LKN704]

On 2/28/2021 at 7:47 PM, DH17 said:

Unfortunately saw a motorbike (one of the types that rides in big groups around town without any mufflers and doing wheelies) rider try to use the Streetcar lane today to pass someone. His wheel got stuck in the track and he wiped out. Fortunately he was wearing a helmet and EMS was there within 5 mins, but scary to watch in person.

Glad he wasn't hurt but unfortunately I predict that these incidents will become more frequent until people actually learn that the lanes are for streetcars and streetcars only. 

I was in LA this past week and rode their Metro system quite a bit (although unrelated... never again in the time of Corona, it was one of the most disgusting experiences I have ever had on a transit system, and I genuinely felt unsafe...and that's saying something coming from me), including the Gold Line to Pasadena, which has several portions where it is street-running and crosses streets at grade without crossing gates. Looking out the window it was a scary experience when we were crossing streets, and several times I heard the operator blast the horn, and at one point we stopped through the intersection completely as a group of pedestrians ran out in front of the train. At one point, the train operates on what looks like a two lane road (with the tracks in between each lane) with residential homes on either side with driveways that are dangerously close to the street. I can only imagine what types of incidents occur. 

Fortunately I would imagine that the top speed of the streetcar is significantly less than that of a LRV. 

[DEnd]

13 hours ago, LKN704 said:

Glad he wasn't hurt but unfortunately I predict that these incidents will become more frequent until people actually learn that the lanes are for streetcars and streetcars only. 

I was in LA this past week and rode their Metro system quite a bit (although unrelated... never again in the time of Corona, it was one of the most disgusting experiences I have ever had on a transit system, and I genuinely felt unsafe...and that's saying something coming from me), including the Gold Line to Pasadena, which has several portions where it is street-running and crosses streets at grade without crossing gates. Looking out the window it was a scary experience when we were crossing streets, and several times I heard the operator blast the horn, and at one point we stopped through the intersection completely as a group of pedestrians ran out in front of the train. At one point, the train operates on what looks like a two lane road (with the tracks in between each lane) with residential homes on either side with driveways that are dangerously close to the street. I can only imagine what types of incidents occur. 

Fortunately I would imagine that the top speed of the streetcar is significantly less than that of a LRV. 

The Streetcars on LA's Gold line have maximum top speeds of 65mph and 77mph, so they can go as fast as a LRV.  Light Rail is basically Trams operated as a traditional rail line.  LA may have top speeds governed on their trains, or may have a much lower speed limit imposed on their line (Governed means they do something to the trains to keep them from going fast where as a speed limit would require their drivers to abide by it). 

[kermit]

Quote

McDonald said if all goes smoothly, passengers will be using the service by late May or early June.

https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2021-03-08/as-tests-continue-cats-says-streetcar-will-reopen-in-late-spring

[Spartan]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:27 AM, DEnd said:

They could go to Plaza with only minor teardowns.  From Plaza to Pecan you could make the right lane streetcar, busses, and right turn only, Make a no left turn on Thomas, and add a Left turn lane at Pecan.  Add in signal priority  and you should be able to get decent time through there.  If you give Central a bit of a road diet and are OK with a 35mph speed on the line then you can do the same through out the corridor.  You'd probably have to buy a lane worth of ROW that way plus bump outs for bus stops so that busses don't stop the streetcar at adjacent stops.   Of course if they do that I'd also advocate for a separated bike lane for as long as they can possibly get.  The major downside  to that approach is travel time.  I don't know what the reduction would be over say a fully separated ROW  where you can get higher speeds.

There's also another option.  Add a public parking deck at pecan station and instead of turning on Central at Clement continue down to commonwealth  stop at Pecan and Commonwealth and then up Plaza to Central to the planned stop at Plaza on Central.  This would ad a direct connection to the Blue line, ad fairly convenient parking to Plaza Midwood, and add an extra street car stop to the business district.  The downside would be a couple of extra minutes of travel time, and added cost.  

The 4 lane section of Central is only a barrier if you're assuming the street has to be 4 lanes. IMO, if we're willing to make vehicular traffic worse in order to improve the other 3 primary modes, then there is a lot of room to work with. We have to stop thinking like a driver and start thinking like someone without a car if we're ever going to make headway in this city (pun intended).

 

On 2/28/2021 at 5:17 PM, Yeahdoug said:

I just don’t see a huge commuter crowd using the streetcar until silver line is up in 2045. Seems like it will be mostly college students and people going to plaza. If you’re already in uptown it’s not worth it to pay. My guess it will operate at a big loss so might as well make it free and let people use it. 

There is a lot of demand to get from CTC to CPCC, Presby and Mercy. I'm not sure if BofA still has operations in Gateway, but there used to be a lot of traffic on the Gold Rush between there and the Square. I also think having a rail connection to the edge of Plaza Midwood will attract a few riders. Personally, I will take the train to Sunnyside and walk the 10 mins or whatever into PM if I'm heading that way.

[southslider]

6 hours ago, Spartan said:

 

There is a lot of demand to get from CTC to CPCC, Presby and Mercy. I'm not sure if BofA still has operations in Gateway, but there used to be a lot of traffic on the Gold Rush between there and the Square. I also think having a rail connection to the edge of Plaza Midwood will attract a few riders. Personally, I will take the train to Sunnyside and walk the 10 mins or whatever into PM if I'm heading that way.

There are already a lot of high-frequency bus routes connecting CTC with CPCC (9, 17, 27) and Plaza Central (9, 17), plus connecting the Square with Gateway (1, 7, 8, 34).  Streetcar will have equal or worse frequency than many of these bus routes, but whatever gets more people to take transit.

[Yeahdoug]

Make it free for uptown residents from the special district tax please. Pretty please. 

[JacksonH]

16 hours ago, Spartan said:

Personally, I will take the train to Sunnyside and walk the 10 mins or whatever into PM if I'm heading that way.

I don't know if it was intentional, but I have long felt that the Phase 2 termination of the Gold Line at Sunnyside/Hawthorne is smart from a development standpoint.  It's going to be (and perhaps already is) encouraging development close to that station.   According to Google maps, it's an 8-minute walk from the Sunnyside/Hawthorne Gold Line stop to Pecan/Central in the heart of Plaza-Midwood.  That's nothing.   That's how long my walk is to the grocery store.  When the Central Square redevelopment is completed, it's going to feel like that's where Plaza-Midwood begins, and that will be maybe just a three or four-minute walk from that stop.  It already looks like a "Five Points"-type area is developing at the intersection of 10th, Central and Louise.  The Gold Line stop might help incentivize more development between there and Central Square, fusing together the Belmont and Plaza-Midwood business districts into one long stretch of activity.  And the Sunnyside/Hawthorne stop will be in the very heart of that.

[Madison Parkitect]

2 hours ago, JacksonH said:

I don't know if it was intentional, but I have long felt that the Phase 2 termination of the Gold Line at Sunnyside/Hawthorne is smart from a development standpoint.  It's going to be (and perhaps already is) encouraging development close to that station.   According to Google maps, it's an 8-minute walk from the Sunnyside/Hawthorne Gold Line stop to Pecan/Central in the heart of Plaza-Midwood.  That's nothing.   That's how long my walk is to the grocery store.  When the Central Square redevelopment is completed, it's going to feel like that's where Plaza-Midwood begins, and that will be maybe just a three or four-minute walk from that stop.  It already looks like a "Five Points"-type area is developing at the intersection of 10th, Central and Louise.  The Gold Line stop might help incentivize more development between there and Central Square, fusing together the Belmont and Plaza-Midwood business districts into one long stretch of activity.  And the Sunnyside/Hawthorne stop will be in the very heart of that.

I agree, having the stop there should help fill in that generally underdeveloped space between the Central Coffee intersection and the new Central Square and the geographical center of the neighborhood will shift from Central/Pecan to Central/Hawthorn.

[dubone]

There is definitely some growth potential at Hawthorne/Sunnyside, but that would still be true if they went past that for one additional stop.  Especially given the massive expense and effort that the project absorbed in replacing Hawthorne Bridge. (I will forever believe a train - only bridge could have been built all the way to Pecan for the same money and had a station that actually could provide connections for the Silver line without embittering the neighborhood to the streetcar. )    But since they took on that cost, they should have gone farther up Hawthorne. 

The growth and density around that station was already mostly happening, but I know they'll take some credit for it.   I just hope the ridership actually comes when they open and the pandemic winds down this summer.  

[pathb]

Finally saw the streetcar in action last night!  Moving fast with a rolling escort during testing.  Can't wait to ride this thing - anyone heard anything firm on an opening date for passenger service?  

[Matthew.Brendan]

In other news I was driving my father's Mini Cooper around town and found it's wheelbase perfectly matches the track width for these so I can quite literally ride the rails. Pretty crazy to feel it pulling on the car. I went over to W. Trade street and flung it down the hill. Good stuff.

[videtur quam contuor]

That is the "track" of the automobile. The first Mini I landed on with a search for track was a 2015 with 57.4 front and 57.8 rear track. This is with factory wheels and tires. Standard gauge in the USA and Canada for the vast amount of rail line is 56.5 inches. I assume light rail follows standard rail gauge. I have a Miata that is 55.5 inches.

Edited April 29, 2021 by tarhoosier

[kermit]

Gezzus Christ....

please let’s not ask John Lewis to be in charge of Silver line construction.

Edited May 1, 2021 by kermit

[JacksonH]

When they say August they mean August 31.

[navigator319]

More continued evidence as to why the current organization/administration does not deserve a yes vote on any referendum.

Burn it down build it new then maybe they deserve to be in charge of 10B+ project.

[RANYC]

On 4/30/2021 at 9:05 PM, JacksonH said:

When they say August they mean August 31. 
 

August 2022 or 2023?

Edited May 2, 2021 by RANYC

[nakers2]

Why though? For all intents and purposes it looks effectively done. They’ve even had cars running at night. We deserve a better explanation.

[JacksonH]

5 hours ago, nakers2 said:

Why though? For all intents and purposes it looks effectively done. They’ve even had cars running at night. We deserve a better explanation.

I'm going out on a limb here and giving them extreme benefit of the doubt, but maybe they are afraid that opening before we're not further out of this pandemic, and Uptown has not reopened, could mean very low ridership.  And then the big news would be that the Gold Line is opening to very low ridership and could result in a big black eye for CATS and make public support for other transit projects more difficult to achieve.  Maybe the thinking is that by opening in August it will be a bang instead of a thud.

[Durhamite]

On 5/5/2021 at 8:08 PM, JacksonH said:

I'm going out on a limb here and giving them extreme benefit of the doubt, but maybe they are afraid that opening before we're not further out of this pandemic, and Uptown has not reopened, could mean very low ridership.  And then the big news would be that the Gold Line is opening to very low ridership and could result in a big black eye for CATS and make public support for other transit projects more difficult to achieve.  Maybe the thinking is that by opening in August it will be a bang instead of a thud.

Not only that but hardly any transportation project is delivered on-time, and generally rushed with shoddy work to meet an unrealistic milestone from inception. - only having to circle back to cleanup more of a mess.  Some of these obstacles are quite naturally part of the process anyway, so my vote is to delay until a majority of the kinks are worked out.   I also think these are massive and novel projects for most cities and will always encounter many unforeseen cost, logistical, regulatory and environmental issues....whereas it's much easier to raise hell about it here (Monday morning QB) versus the day-to-day grind and management at ground zero.  Do more with less, be on-time and God forbid a delay.

[southslider]

If this were your last rail project, you'd also want to take as long as possible.

[nakers2]

It's incredibly frustrating and disheartening to see this take so long. I *know* it's unrealistic to expect the car centric US to have the same level of transit infrastructure as our European counterparts, but seeing as South Carolina, of all places, can replace a bridge over the Catawba in two weeks time, the fact we're getting on, what is it, four years with this project is unacceptable. Charlotte was really getting ahead of its transit needs there for while, but John Lewis and CATS management has and actively are creating a scenario where Charlotte will be at Atlanta or LA levels of congestion before the public appetite for transit opens up again. Build now while we don't "need" it for a future where we will. 

[JRCLT]

It's incredibly frustrating and disheartening to see this take so long. I *know* it's unrealistic to expect the car centric US to have the same level of transit infrastructure as our European counterparts, but seeing as South Carolina, of all places, can replace a bridge over the Catawba in two weeks time, the fact we're getting on, what is it, four years with this project is unacceptable. Charlotte was really getting ahead of its transit needs there for while, but John Lewis and CATS management has and actively are creating a scenario where Charlotte will be at Atlanta or LA levels of congestion before the public appetite for transit opens up again. Build now while we don't "need" it for a future where we will. 

I cannot deny that CATS management is questionable, but I would also like to point out that CATS as an organization isn’t constructing the project and make mistakes (at least not entirely)? It seems that the contractor is the one making logistical mistakes and slowing down the project (Not denying that there hasn’t been some contributing factors by CATS itself since they have not been as transparent as everyone would like) but still this issue is not 1 dimensional and I believe in most cases the contractor is to blame as well. I rarely see anyone addressing them or as separate entity which surely they must be? Unless I am out of my mind lol. Also the selection process for the lowest contract bidder does not always secure the best quality and delivery on deadlines. I am also not well informed in how these two entities are working together exactly, but construction mistakes that need to be corrected should not (most likely) fall on CATS to a certain degree. If I knew more about their relationship, communication, and decisions: I could probably tell more concisely what body is at fault for the delays. I just wanted to bring attention to the other bodies that have a role in this project. It can be easy to blame a singular body versus multiple for multiple reasons and faults.